Abortion: What is the Right Choice?

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dennisknapp

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Many in our current culture argue that abortion is a moral choice, whether by those in support of abortion who claim it is immoral to take choice away from the women, or those against abortion who claim it is immoral to kill an innocent person.

What is not dealt with enough (in my opinion) is knowledge. I believe we on the prolife side tend to argue in away that speaks past those we are trying to convince.

What I purpose is using the argument of choice against those who are pro-choice. How do we do this? Here is my method.

What is needed to make an adequate moral choice?

a. The ability to make the choice, i.e., it cannot be forced.

b. Having the adequate knowledge necessary to insure the choice being made is not immoral, i.e., knowing the status of the unborn.

c. The more sever the choice, the greater the need for knowledge.

d. If all three criteria are met, we can be certain an immoral decision has not been made.

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Examples of why knowledge is needed to make an adequate choice.

Either the unborn are persons, or not; and either we know what it is, or not.
  1. that it is not a person and we know that,
  2. that it is a person and we know that,
  3. that it is a person but we do not know that, and
  4. that it is not a person and we do not know that.
What is abortion is each of the cases?

In case (1) abortion is perfectly permissible. We know it is not a person, therefore it is not immoral to abort it.

In case (2) abortion is murder. For killing an innocent person knowing it is an innocent person is murder.

In case (3) abortion is manslaughter, for it is killing an innocent person not knowing and intending the full, deliberate extent of murder.

In case (4) abortion is criminal negligence, for even if abortion kills what is not in fact a person, but the killer does not know for sure that it is not a person, the result is criminal negligence.

In all cases, expect when it is known with certainty that the unborn is not a person, abortion is an immoral choice.

Why?

The knowledge needed to make the choice a moral choice is non-existent. Remember, we not only need the ability to choose, but the knowledge necessary to make an adequate moral choice.

Our current situation.

Of the four cases just stated our current situation falls under either case three or four, and in both cases abortion is an immoral choice.

How?

Let’s use an example form the real world. Say you and a friend go hunting in the woods and you both split up. After an hour or so you spot a sudden movement in a bush. It could be a dear or it could be your friend. What do you do? If you shoot the bush and it is your friend you have just committed manslaughter. If it is not your friend and but dear, you still have committed an immoral choice because it could have been your friend. Your choice was not moral, just lucky!

Conclusion, abortion is only a moral choice if and only if we know that the unborn is not a person and it is not.

By fucusing on choice and what makes a choice moral we can show that the current pro-choice argument is not “pro” choice at all, but an immoral counterfeit.

Peace
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Maybe so, but current studies show that women considering abortion are not thinking about the status of the unborn child at all. They are thinking about the “ruin” of their lives, the limitation of their choices, how they would feel if they gave up their child for adoption. They are thinking about themselves, which is not odd considering that’s what our society programs people to think about.
We have to present these women with compassionate choices, explain that abortion will hurt them, physically as well as emotionally, and show them that their lives are not over if they carry their children to term.
 
your argument falls down because you are assuming that if one accepts “the fetus is a person and we know that” automatically they will feel the appropriate horror at murdering an innocent person and therefore refrain from abortion. If you follow pro-abort rhetoric you will quickly find that many politicians, scientists, feminists and activists do acknowledge the fetus as a human being, as a person and yet do not assign its right to life the same importance or status as the right of the mother to abort.
 
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Viki59:
Maybe so, but current studies show that women considering abortion are not thinking about the status of the unborn child at all. They are thinking about the “ruin” of their lives, the limitation of their choices, how they would feel if they gave up their child for adoption. They are thinking about themselves, which is not odd considering that’s what our society programs people to think about.
We have to present these women with compassionate choices, explain that abortion will hurt them, physically as well as emotionally, and show them that their lives are not over if they carry their children to term.
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I totally agree.

If all three criteria are met, we can be certain an immoral decision has not been made. If this were done it would be saving millions of women the unnecessary guilt if it were ever discovered (through scientific evidence) that the unborn are actually persons.

Would it not?

Peace
 
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Viki59:
Maybe so, but current studies show that women considering abortion are not thinking about the status of the unborn child at all. They are thinking about the “ruin” of their lives, the limitation of their choices, how they would feel if they gave up their child for adoption. They are thinking about themselves, which is not odd considering that’s what our society programs people to think about.
We have to present these women with compassionate choices, explain that abortion will hurt them, physically as well as emotionally, and show them that their lives are not over if they carry their children to term.
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I totally agree. That is a great statement you made and I do hope many read it and apply themselves into helping the women out there that find themselves in this type of situation. Abortion is indeed destructive and the only way I see getting past this problem is by talking to them with the compassion that you have stated and to help them realize that, whether they are thinking of it on their own free will or by someone else pressuring them into doing so, life is what God has given to us and it is trully a wonderful gift.
 
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puzzleannie:
your argument falls down because you are assuming that if one accepts “the fetus is a person and we know that” automatically they will feel the appropriate horror at murdering an innocent person and therefore refrain from abortion. If you follow pro-abort rhetoric you will quickly find that many politicians, scientists, feminists and activists do acknowledge the fetus as a human being, as a person and yet do not assign its right to life the same importance or status as the right of the mother to abort.
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Yes, but they still claim their decision to be a moral one, and their choice can only be moral if and only if we know that the unborn are not persons.

Until this is understood with any amount of certainty abortion is always an immoral choice.

Freedom of choice can never be at the expense of another.

Also, if it is ever discovered with certainly that the unborn are if fact persons with all right under the law, it would not matter how the person feels, it would be illegal.

Peace
 
whether or not they claim the choice is morally correct is irrelevant to them, they believe morality is relative, they do not acknowledge an absolute morality. If you try to convince a pro-abort with this mentality that abortion is inherently objectively immmoral based on your argument you will fail because the do not acknowledge your premise.
 
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puzzleannie:
whether or not they claim the choice is morally correct is irrelevant to them, they believe morality is relative, they do not acknowledge an absolute morality. If you try to convince a pro-abort with this mentality that abortion is inherently objectively immmoral based on your argument you will fail because the do not acknowledge your premise.
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They acknowledge that is it a moral choice.

We can even use a subjective moral standard like our own society. Under our law is it illegal to kill an innocent person, correct.

Even if we kill some by accident we can be held responsible.

My argument rest on our current state of knowledge regarding the unborn.

Currently, there is no concensus in the medical field, philosophy, and among women regarding this issue, so until there is a concensus that states abortion is not killing an innocent person and we know that is it not killing an innocent person, abortion is immoral.

All I am asking of them is to wait until the issue is fully understood in order to keep them from making an immoral choice and having to deal with the guilt later on.

Peace
 
We need to be cautious of how we go about explaining to those who are concidering abortion that it is an immoral decision. If they are aproached the wrong way, one might make them rebel against the Lord and put them in greater risk of confusion on a spiritual level. We do indeed need to work with them and help them out the best way we can, that is spiritually.
 
To those that say choice is moral, I say, ok lets give the fetus a little time and ask it which choice it prefers?
 
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Maranatha:
To those that say choice is moral, I say, ok lets give the fetus a little time and ask it which choice it prefers?
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Choice in itself is not moral or immoral, but the ability to choose among real options.

If they want to call it a moral choice it has to follow certain moral guidelines to insure that in fact it is a moral choice.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
Choice in itself is not moral or immoral, but the ability to choose among real options.

If they want to call it a moral choice it has to follow certain moral guidelines to insure that in fact it is a moral choice.

Peace
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Hello dennis, I will disagree with you on this one. Choice making is truly either moral or immoral. If one were to make a decision in their life that is against God’s will, I would then have to say that person made an immoral decision. Now, if that same person made a choice in favor of God’s will, then that one had made a moral decision, based on how we are to live our lives according to the Holy Bible. Peace and God Bless
 
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littleitaly:
Hello dennis, I will disagree with you on this one. Choice making is truly either moral or immoral. If one were to make a decision in their life that is against God’s will, I would then have to say that person made an immoral decision. Now, if that same person made a choice in favor of God’s will, then that one had made a moral decision, based on how we are to live our lives according to the Holy Bible. Peace and God Bless
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Maybe you misunderstood.

What I meant is that the ability to choose is neither moral or immoral. What is choosen is what is moral and immoral.

Peace
 
To summerize:

Those on both sides say abortion is a moral choice.

What constitutes a moral choice?

a. The ability to make the choice, i.e., it cannot be forced.

b. Having the adequate knowledge necessary to insure the choice being made is not immoral, i.e., knowing the status of the unborn.

c. The more sever the choice, the greater the need for knowledge.

Our current state of knowledge regarding unborn is lacking, i.e., there is not definitive understanding within the scientific and philosophical community. Our current state violates b and c.

Therefore, abortion cannot be a moral choice, but an immoral choice until this knowledge is aquired.

Peace
 
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dennisknapp:
To summerize:

Those on both sides say abortion is a moral choice.

What constitutes a moral choice?

a. The ability to make the choice, i.e., it cannot be forced.

b. Having the adequate knowledge necessary to insure the choice being made is not immoral, i.e., knowing the status of the unborn.

c. The more sever the choice, the greater the need for knowledge.

Our current state of knowledge regarding unborn is lacking, i.e., there is not definitive understanding within the scientific and philosophical community. Our current state violates b and c.

Therefore, abortion cannot be a moral choice, but an immoral choice until this knowledge is aquired.

Peace
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Interesting on your definition on moral choice. This of course, you know can be argued within itself. For I am certain that many people have their own point of view on the meaning of moral choice.
  1. involving right and wrong: relating to issues of right and wrong and to how individuals should behave
  2. derived from personal conscience: based on what somebody’s conscience suggests is right or wrong, rather than on what the law says should be done
  3. in terms of natural justice: regarded in terms of what is known to be right or just, as opposed to what is officially or outwardly declared to be right or just
    a moral victory.
  4. encouraging goodness and respectability: giving guidance on how to behave decently and honorably
  5. good by accepted standards: good or right, when judged by the standards of the average person or society at large
  6. telling right from wrong: able to distinguish right from wrong and to make decisions based on that knowledge
  7. based on conviction: based on an inner conviction, in the absence of physical proof
    Encarta ® World English Dictionary
    True the choice can not be forced, that is unless the person is to do it againxt their will. We know that this activety goes on out there. To determine who is right and who is wrong, all we have to do is resort to the Bible of life. The words that the Holy Spirit passed on to us through the many profits. Amen! Peace http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
 
Are you assuming that if someone knew it was immoral that they would not do it? I tend to think that people are in denial about the humanity of the fetus, but I’m not sure educating them will make a big difference. They’ll just say so it’s a person, so what. I mean we are that hard-hearted now.

And besides, they won’t let us educate them with photos or talk–my state just passed a law that you can’t go within 36 feet of someone entering or leaving an abortion mill e.g.–so obviously they’re afraid of the truth and just want to close their eyes, plug their ears and go on their way. And as someone said, some people will just take sides with Satan upon being apprised of their immoral choices. Look how it’s happening now. There is a whole swathe of people who just love self-identifying as pagan and/or satanic. They think it’s cool. I think there is a reason for that–it lets them off the hook in some psychic way.

What I would be interested in seeing is a study of any correlation between abortion and post-op drinking and partying as a way to ward off guilt.
 
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littleitaly:
Interesting on your definition on moral choice. This of course, you know can be argued within itself. For I am certain that many people have their own point of view on the meaning of moral choice.
  1. involving right and wrong: relating to issues of right and wrong and to how individuals should behave
  2. derived from personal conscience: based on what somebody’s conscience suggests is right or wrong, rather than on what the law says should be done
  3. in terms of natural justice: regarded in terms of what is known to be right or just, as opposed to what is officially or outwardly declared to be right or just
    a moral victory.
  4. encouraging goodness and respectability: giving guidance on how to behave decently and honorably
  5. good by accepted standards: good or right, when judged by the standards of the average person or society at large
  6. telling right from wrong: able to distinguish right from wrong and to make decisions based on that knowledge
  7. based on conviction: based on an inner conviction, in the absence of physical proof
    Encarta ® World English Dictionary
    True the choice can not be forced, that is unless the person is to do it againxt their will. We know that this activety goes on out there. To determine who is right and who is wrong, all we have to do is resort to the Bible of life. The words that the Holy Spirit passed on to us through the many profits. Amen! Peace http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif
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All you need to ask is one simple question–Is killing an innocent person wrong. In points 1-7 the answer is always yes.

In order for abortion is be a moral choice it must show that the unborn are in fact non-persons. If it fails to do this it passes no moral test.

Peace
 
I agree, our culture and our government are giving them the message that it is indeed not immoral. It is impossible to know how the conscience of a person has been formed.

Even so, as another poster commented, the pressure in our society to make women feel that motherhood is such a bad thing that will ruin your life is very powerful. Women are scared. Selfish yes, but I think mostly scared. I think that is why contraception is such a big deal. The idea of submitting to God’s will is seen as ridiculous, weak and oppresive.
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littleitaly:
We need to be cautious of how we go about explaining to those who are concidering abortion that it is an immoral decision. If they are aproached the wrong way, one might make them rebel against the Lord and put them in greater risk of confusion on a spiritual level. We do indeed need to work with them and help them out the best way we can, that is spiritually.
Click to expand...
 
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