Abortion. would you rather she...

[vera_dicere]

Amen to that.
I would just like to add that abortions done today, when abortions are “safe and legal” are not necessarily done by an MD and they are often done in places which, frankly, most people wouldn’t get their teeth cleaned at, much less have a surgical procedure done.
My point is, making something legal does not necessarily make it safe. People assume they go hand in hand and they don’t.

To offhand the topic a bit, you know what’s scary about abortion today? Is that it’s not the pro-life/anti-abortion/anti-choice whatever groups that fight to make clinics safer, its the abortion industry. Their argument is, “oh, if the abortionist is required to have standards in his clinic that a dentist would have in their’s then the cost of abortion will go up so poor women wont’ be able to get them”.

Its the pro-aborts that are standign in the way of safer clinic regulations.

Abortions are what, 350$ on average for an 8 weeker, some abortionists can claim they can get it done in about 5 minutes. Where’s the money going to?

Abortion is far from pro-woman. The people who support abortion are far from pro-woman.

 

[Zatzat]

Abortions are what, 350$ on average for an 8 weeker, some abortionists can claim they can get it done in about 5 minutes. Where’s the money going to?

Abortion is far from pro-woman. The people who support abortion are far from pro-woman.

In Canada, abortions are performed in hospitals. I don’t know what the cost is, but I suspect it’s a lot more than $350. Of course, Canada has universal health care, so there’s no out of pocket expense.

 

[Zatzat]

a child is about to be MURDERED. .

It’s certainly not murder. Murder is a legal term, used in a court of law. Women who obtain abortions aren’t charged with murder, because they haven’t murdered anyone.

You’re using activist language and I get that, but it’s far from the reality.

imprint.uwaterloo.ca/2009/oct/2/science-and-technology/science-behind-abortion-debate/

For this reason it bears mentioning that a 2003 Statistics Canada study found that, over the previous ten years, the percentage of Canadian abortions induced by 12 weeks had risen from 86.4 to 95.4 per cent of all abortion cases

 

[Rence]

A hypothetical scenario;
You have a female acquaintance and you just found out that she had an abortion. This female lives in a state where abortion is illegal. However, the woman lives beside a state that has legalized abortion.
Upon hearing the news, would you rather hear that;
A). The woman sought an illegal back alley abortion.
B). The woman sought a legal abortion in a modern health care facility.
Discuss.

After a bit of thought, I’d rather hear that she sought a legal abortion in a modern health care facility, because it is legal and safer than an ‘illegal’ abortion, plus, it doesn’t make sense for her to get an illegal abortion when a legal one in a modern health care facility is available. This puts the odds in her favor of recovering without incident (though, that’s not to say she won’t develop post-procedure complications, just like any other procedure, it’s just that the odds are in her favor in this environment.) But it would not stop there for me. I would work with her towards repending and reconciling with the Church. I would show her documentation from the CCC and encyclicals that explained that what she did was hineous in the eyes of the Church and why this is so. I’d introduce her to my parish priest and encourage her to seek his council.

Once it’s done, it’s done and it’s over. You can’t change the past, you can only move forward. It’s unfortunate that your hypothetical acquaintance had this abortion, but Jesus would forgive her if she asked him for forgiveness. We should put her back on the path of salvation, not by dwelling on her past, but concentrating on her future.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

It’s certainly not murder. Murder is a legal term, used in a court of law. Women who obtain abortions aren’t charged with murder, because they haven’t murdered anyone.

You’re using activist language and I get that, but it’s far from the reality.

imprint.uwaterloo.ca/2009/oct/2/science-and-technology/science-behind-abortion-debate/

For this reason it bears mentioning that a 2003 Statistics Canada study found that, over the previous ten years, the percentage of Canadian abortions induced by 12 weeks had risen from 86.4 to 95.4 per cent of all abortion cases

You’re right in that NORMALLY murder is a legal term. HOWEVER it also means, “to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously”.

Ever see what abortion doctors do in there? It isn’t pretty, and I’d say even if it wasn’t fairly horrible to see it’s still pretty barbarous to have this legalized. So it’s still murder.

See defintion five.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder

 

[Zatzat]

After a bit of thought, I’d rather hear that she sought a legal abortion in a modern health care facility, because it is legal and safer than an ‘illegal’ abortion, plus, it doesn’t make sense for her to get an illegal abortion when a legal one in a modern health care facility is available. This puts the odds in her favor of recovering without incident (though, that’s not to say she won’t develop post-procedure complications, just like any other procedure, it’s just that the odds are in her favor in this environment.) But it would not stop there for me. I would work with her towards repending and reconciling with the Church. I would show her documentation from the CCC and encyclicals that explained that what she did was hineous in the eyes of the Church and why this is so. I’d introduce her to my parish priest and encourage her to seek his council.

Once it’s done, it’s done and it’s over. You can’t change the past, you can only move forward. It’s unfortunate that your hypothetical acquaintance had this abortion, but Jesus would forgive her if she asked him for forgiveness. We should put her back on the path of salvation, not by dwelling on her past, but concentrating on her future.

Wow, the type of answer I’d expect from a follower of Jesus.

 

[Zatzat]

You’re right in that NORMALLY murder is a legal term. HOWEVER it also means, “to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously”.

Ever see what abortion doctors do in there? It isn’t pretty, and I’d say even if it wasn’t fairly horrible to see it’s still pretty barbarous to have this legalized. So it’s still murder.

See defintion five.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder

Yeah, you try and call someone a murderer in mainstream media and see how long it takes for lawyers to come knocking.

The Internet is kind of like La La land where people ’ believe’ they can say what they want without recourse…

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Yeah, you try and call someone a murderer in mainstream media and see how long it takes for lawyers to come knocking.

The Internet is kind of like La La land where people ’ believe’ they can say what they want without recourse…

True, but this isn’t the mainstream media, is it? We ARE on the Internet and her use of the word murdered made perfect sense in that context.

 

[vera_dicere]

In Canada, abortions are performed in hospitals. I don’t know what the cost is, but I suspect it’s a lot more than $350. Of course, Canada has universal health care, so there’s no out of pocket expense.

It sounds like New Zealand, then. Our Ministry of Health has set a goal of less than 3% complication rate for abortions. Whether or not they meet that is anyone’s guess, goodness knows I"ve come across a lot of women who’ve been injured in abortions, and ours are preformed in hospital settings.

And all up, abortions cost about $1,500+ down here. All tax payer funded.

 

[vera_dicere]

It’s certainly not murder. Murder is a legal term, used in a court of law. Women who obtain abortions aren’t charged with murder, because they haven’t murdered anyone.

You’re using activist language and I get that, but it’s far from the reality.

imprint.uwaterloo.ca/2009/oct/2/science-and-technology/science-behind-abortion-debate/

For this reason it bears mentioning that a 2003 Statistics Canada study found that, over the previous ten years, the percentage of Canadian abortions induced by 12 weeks had risen from 86.4 to 95.4 per cent of all abortion cases

That is indeed true. Abortion may not be murder, but it’s defintely homicide.

Of course, being a legal term, murder can be determined by a govt. In fact, there was a particular European govt that existed about 60, 70 years ago that well, said to kill a Jew wasn’t murder…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So, Zatzat, you don’t like the term ‘murder’.

What, then, do you call what happens in an abortion?

The child was living, after an abortion the child is dead.

The child was not given the ‘choice’ to live or die; the choice was taken FOR the child.

If the child had been ‘born’, and another person, even the parent, smothered the child, it would be murder.

Furthermore, there are now cases in the U.S. where a child in the womb who has been killed is considered as a person (Scott Peterson case comes to mind). Both the child and his mother were considered murder victims.

Do you think that a woman (or man) has a ‘right’ to decide whether anyone can live or die, without a trial, without the person being killed being heard, without them being guilty of doing wrong?

 

[st_lucy]

It’s certainly not murder. Murder is a legal term, used in a court of law. Women who obtain abortions aren’t charged with murder, because they haven’t murdered anyone.

You’re using activist language and I get that, but it’s far from the reality.

imprint.uwaterloo.ca/2009/oct/2/science-and-technology/science-behind-abortion-debate/

For this reason it bears mentioning that a 2003 Statistics Canada study found that, over the previous ten years, the percentage of Canadian abortions induced by 12 weeks had risen from 86.4 to 95.4 per cent of all abortion cases

mur·der (mûrdr)
n.

1. The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

I think you are wrong. An innocent life is being taken when an abortion is being done. It is also premediated and there is malice on the behalf of the Dr. at least since he in actually see and watching those little legs, arms and head being ripped off one by one, while the child is still alive.

So would I ever take back my words? No, it is murder, and maybe one day the world will come to terms with this simple fact.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You know, I am just so sure that all the children who have been aborted over the past many decades will be so relieved that they were not really ‘murdered’ according to that final abiter of morality, Zatzat. I’m sure his opinion on the subject will matter so much to them.

 

[Zatzat]

If a woman has a mis-carriage…do you label your God as a murderer?

No?

Then why do you call a woman who obtains an abortion a murderer?

It’s activist language…selectively applied.**

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Does the woman CAUSE the miscarriage through actively seeking through either chemical or ‘instrumented’ means to remove the child from the womb?

 

[st_lucy]

If a woman has a mis-carriage…do you label your God as a murderer?

No?

Then why do you call a woman who obtains an abortion a murderer?

It’s activist language…selectively applied.**

Really?

First of all God, is the author of life and so cannot kill something He made.

Second of all a miscarriage is totally different than an abortion. When the child dies in miscarriage he is dying of natural causes; ie there is no ripping off of limbs or drilling in the head to suck out the brains, while he is still alive.

Are you really that dense to compare the two?

 

[estesbob]

If a woman has a mis-carriage…do you label your God as a murderer?

No?

How Absurd-and you expect people to take you seriously?

Then why do you call a woman who obtains an abortion a murderer?

It’s activist language…selectively applied.

Some call it activist language-some call it the truth. At any rate we have fallen into the usual semantics game that those trying to defend the indefensible generally try to direct the discussion into.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

How . . .interesting. . .that our use of language should be (subjectively) found ‘activist’ by someone who believes that a person who dies just ‘ceases to be’.

It appears to me that rather than address the parallel of a woman murdering somebody by crossing the border illegally, or murdering somebody ‘right in town’, you NOW desire to make it look as though ‘murder’ doesn’t even come into the picture, by refusing to ‘allow’ on your personal narrow minded definition of AD 2010 that this is murder.

How do you explain, Zatzat, that prior to Roe an abortion was considered a capital crime? And if one looks at history, it was considered a murder.

So, just because for a certain period of ‘time’ a certain number of people manage to pass laws ‘negating’ the murder title, does that mean they can magically poof make it 'not murder?'

**Slavery was LEGAL in the U.S. Did that make it MORAL? **

So you really, really don’t want to think of that baby dying, do you Zatzat? You really don’t. Because that is what happens, every time.

**A baby is killed. Poisoned, or ripped apart, piece by piece. Every time. **

 

[catharina]

How do you explain, Zatzat, that prior to Roe an abortion was considered a capital crime? And if one looks at history, it was considered a murder.

So, just because for a certain period of ‘time’ a certain number of people manage to pass laws ‘negating’ the murder title, does that mean they can magically poof make it 'not murder?'

**Slavery was LEGAL in the U.S. Did that make it MORAL? **

So you really, really don’t want to think of that baby dying, do you Zatzat? You really don’t. Because that is what happens, every time.

**A baby is killed. Poisoned, or ripped apart, piece by piece. Every time. **

Perfect presentation of the facts.
Many of us can clearly remember the time when abortion was outlawed throughout the nation.
We were already adults when the “laws changed.”
It’s total pretence to hold that the laws of today present a version of truth.

Abortion regulations are based in “convenience” and greed.

 

[Zatzat]

I’m not buying your black and white arguement. I’m able to see many shades of grey, but then again, I’m not blinded by emotion or dogma.