Abortion

[JOEBIALEK]

On this 35th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, I would like to share my views on the issue of abortion.

Life begins at the point of conception. No one can deny that after a human being is conceived it will develop into the very same being as those debating this issue. What astounds me is that those who favor abortion went through an identical development stage as the being they are condemning to death. Would these very same people agree that a similiar choice should have been made about their own existence? Abortion today is used primarily as a birth control of convenience because people are too self-centered to take precautions. They prefer their own pleasurable self-indulgence over the care and sanctity of the life they created. What ever happened to taking responsibility for one’s actions in this country? Is it too much to ask a woman who has conceived to place the child into adoption? Nine months of discomfort is nothing compared to life in prison for voluntary manslaughter! Does the father of the child have a say in this? And what about the constitution of the United States? Are not all people conceived in this country deserving of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I believe abortion is a crime against humanity and should be outlawed. We need to overturn the Roe v. Wade decision and get back to cherishing life in this country. For a country that murders it’s children cannot be far from self destruction.

 

[ribozyme]

On this 35th anniversary of the Roe v. Wade decision, I would like to share my views on the issue of abortion.

Life begins at the point of conception. No one can deny that after a human being is conceived it will develop into the very same being as those debating this issue. What astounds me is that those who favor abortion went through an identical development stage as the being they are condemning to death. Would these very same people agree that a similiar choice should have been made about their own existence? Abortion today is used primarily as a birth control of convenience because people are too self-centered to take precautions. They prefer their own pleasurable self-indulgence over the care and sanctity of the life they created. What ever happened to taking responsibility for one’s actions in this country? Is it too much to ask a woman who has conceived to place the child into adoption? Nine months of discomfort is nothing compared to life in prison for voluntary manslaughter! Does the father of the child have a say in this? And what about the constitution of the United States? Are not all people conceived in this country deserving of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? I believe abortion is a crime against humanity and should be outlawed. We need to overturn the Roe v. Wade decision and get back to cherishing life in this country. For a country that murders it’s children cannot be far from self destruction.

I have my own reasons for denying the sanctity of life… but I respect the life of humans after the 20th week of conception because they can feel pain (which is an ostensibly bizarre reason for a liberal such as myself to support the partial birth abortion ban, although I do not express the same fervor on that law that Catholics have) The thought of being aborted or discarded as an embryo does not bother me as even now I fail to find some coherent purpose in my life.

Note, I do not know what a “liberal” is…

 

[Pong]

No one can deny that after a human being is conceived it will develop into the very same being as those debating this issue.

Not necessarily. Not all fetuses are viable.

Abortion today is used primarily as a birth control of convenience because people are too self-centered to take precautions.

Documentation, please. And you are aware that the Church forbids these “precautions”… unless of course you mean abstinece, in which case you should have come out and said so.

Would these very same people agree that a similiar choice should have been made about their own existence?

Yes, and I say so on a regular basis.

Nine months of discomfort is nothing compared to life in prison for voluntary manslaughter!

Duck! Red herring!

For a country that murders it’s children cannot be far from self destruction.

A last we are agreed. But that goes for all its children, not just in fetal form.

 

[mdzialo]

1.) If it’s not a baby, then you’re not pregnant.

2.) A liberal is someone who is consistently wrong and never learns.

 

[Hastrman]

2.) A liberal is someone who is consistently wrong and never learns.

But I would argue that libertarians are consistently wrong, and also never learn, as are Socialists and anarchists (Anarchy: the most painful path between aristocracy and aristocracy).

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

I have my own reasons for denying the sanctity of life… but I respect the life of humans after the 20th week of conception because they can feel pain (which is an ostensibly bizarre reason for a liberal such as myself to support the partial birth abortion ban, although I do not express the same fervor on that law that Catholics have) The thought of being aborted or discarded as an embryo does not bother me as even now I fail to find some coherent purpose in my life.

Note, I do not know what a “liberal” is…

I have already corrected you on this before, but it seems like I must again. A baby can feel pain at around 8-10 weeks because that is when the sympathetic nervous system is developed.

Also, why is it that ability to feel pain makes one human? There are certain people (children and adults) that do not have the ability to feel pain. By your definition, they are not human and do not deserve protection from killing.

So since you cannot find a purpose in your life, any more than you can find one in an embryo’s, does that mean that it would be ok for someone to kill you?

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Newbie2]

Let’s first start by making the observation that life begins at conception…those who deny that are plainly ignorant of the concept. There is a difference between a live embryo and a dead one, thus, life begins at conception.

It’s hard to defend the notion that an embryo in the uterus that isn’t dead is not alive. :whacky:

The sticking point for many, like ribozyme, it would seem (correct me if I’m wrong, R) is when that life becomes a person, or becomes ensouled.

It seems to me that an arbitrary assignment of when that occurs doesn’t make sense, although if I remember correctly Aquinas did that very thing. My understanding is since his time, that teaching has been modified/corrected.

My point is that many, particularly in the media, wrongly interchange the “When life begins” when they mean to bring up"When does the soul enter the body".

 

[CapIV]

Abortion is a disgusting procedure that is gravely immoral in every case and ought to be outlawed.

That is all.

 

[JonW]

I’m sorry if this has been addressed ad nauseam. Is abortion gravely immoral if committed by a non-Catholic who neither believes nor fully understands Faith?

God Bless

Jon

 

[CapIV]

I’m sorry if this has been addressed ad nauseam. Is abortion gravely immoral if committed by a non-Catholic who neither believes nor fully understands Faith?

God Bless

Jon

The act itself is an act of evil. But one of the qualifications for mortal sin is that the sinner must have full knowledge that she is sinning.

Invincible ignorance they call it. But keep in mind there is a large difference actually being invincibly ignorant, and just rationalizing an act of murder. (which is what most do in my experience)

 

[st_lucy]

I have my own reasons for denying the sanctity of life… but I respect the life of humans after the 20th week of conception because they can feel pain (which is an ostensibly bizarre reason for a liberal such as myself to support the partial birth abortion ban, although I do not express the same fervor on that law that Catholics have) The thought of being aborted or discarded as an embryo does not bother me as even now I fail to find some coherent purpose in my life.

Note, I do not know what a “liberal” is…

I don’t understand why being able to feel pain gives one more rights to life than not being able to feel pain? I have a cousin who after being in horrible car accident and being in a coma for about two months awoke to not being able to feel any pain - or taste for that matter. Do you think that someone can walk up to her and stab her x amount of times and be able to be protected from the law since she wont be able to feel the pain of being stabbed? What makes what one can feel pain vs one who cannot feel more important? I am sure that if you were to ask my cousin if she felt the way you do she would most differently disagree.

 

[hasikelee]

I have my own reasons for denying the sanctity of life… but I respect the life of humans after the 20th week of conception because they can feel pain (which is an ostensibly bizarre reason for a liberal such as myself to support the partial birth abortion ban, although I do not express the same fervor on that law that Catholics have) The thought of being aborted or discarded as an embryo does not bother me as even now I fail to find some coherent purpose in my life.

Note, I do not know what a “liberal” is…

If you can arbitrarily choose to kill someone of the human race, with human DNA, then you must remain consistent to your logic.

Therefore, your post is not being intellectually honest by claiming respect after 20 weeks. If you were being consistent, you would admit that anyone can be killed for any reason under your logical structure.

The real question isn’t over pain…but rather why you feel a desire to depart from your own belief. If it is not a belief you can consistently follow, why bother following it for 20 weeks?

 

[LSK]

I have my own reasons for denying the sanctity of life… but I respect the life of humans after the 20th week of conception because they can feel pain (which is an ostensibly bizarre reason for a liberal such as myself to support the partial birth abortion ban, although I do not express the same fervor on that law that Catholics have) The thought of being aborted or discarded as an embryo does not bother me as even now I fail to find some coherent purpose in my life.

Note, I do not know what a “liberal” is…

I felt so sad when I read this post - but, at the risk of hurting your feelings, it does support what the OP wrote in terms of the inherent selfishness and self-centeredness of pro-abortion people. Because YOU cannot find some coherent purpose in YOUR life you are not bothered that someone ELSE’S life is ended.

Feeling pain is not a reason to determine whether or not a human being is a human being. That’s a specious argument. The reality is, there are more laws in place to protect the egg of a California Condor than to protect a human embryo…and that is just plain bizarre.

The women’s movement made a huge mistake with this issue - they presented the idea of abortion as a way to equal out the ‘we can get pregnant and he can’t’ issue of male and female. What we did was we declared, loud and long, that we wanted the same kind of ‘freedom’ as immoral men…and that is not freedom, that is license.

The men who have stayed true men, i.e. following the will of God rather than their own will, were disrespected horribly by this argument and made to feel as though their high moral values were worthless and unappreciated. So what happens? We now have thirty years of damaged women and men who think the right way to be supportive is to offer to drive their underage girlfriend to an abortion clinic and kill their own child.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m sorry if this has been addressed ad nauseam. Is abortion gravely immoral if committed by a non-Catholic who neither believes nor fully understands Faith?

God Bless

Jon

It is always gravely immoral. Is it a mortal sin? If the person was convinced in her own mind that she was doing “the responsible thing” beyond any shadow of doubt and saw no need to question this assumption, then she did not commit a mortal sin. (This does not mean that she gets off scot free, however - there is Purgatory, for the effects of sin, and who knows what terrors await there.)

 

[Scanner]

I personally think you have to seperate things into what you do know and what you don’t know.

Things you do know

1. Life begins at conception. Life being defined as cells reproducing, carrying on metabolic processes, etc. Plants are alive. Bacteria are alive. Algae is alive. A human embryo is alive.

Things you don’t know

1. When a person has a soul.
2. When a person can feel pain
3. When a person is a person.

No matter if you have faith imparted from the Church on these matters, you aren’t being honest with yourself when you say, “I know a person is a person at conception.”

No you don’t know.

Now, because it is an honest statement that I can make:

“I don’t know” and anyone else being honest with me has to say, “I don’t know either.”

then. . .I beleive. . .you have to err on the side of caution and not possibly cause harm to a possible person.

I have always liked the saying, “You don’t shoot a rifle into the bushes that are moving.” An embryo floating around in a womb is akin to a rustling in the bushes. It could be the wind. . .or it could be a person in there.

So. . .you don’t shoot.

Just my opinion as an Intelligent Designer.

 

[ianywtv]

This is a key issues because we don’t know exactly whan an embryo becomes ‘ensouled’ and therefore is no longer a bunch of cells. There is a video debate on this at www.cicerotv.com and I think there are some good points made there.

The 19th Century Russian mystic Madame Blavatsky had some interesting points:

“Our philosophy goes so far as to say that if the penal code of most countries punishes attempts at suicide, it ought to doubly punich foeticide as an attempt at double suicide…The crime committed lies precisely in the willful and sinful distruction of life, and the interference with the operations of nature, hence with Karma–that of the mother and the would-be future human being.” HPB Collected Writings V.p.107/8

Blavatsky also said: “Thus in cases of abortion…nature’s original design to create a perfect human being has been interrupted… It is a violation of the laws of harmony of nature, though it be so decreed by those of Karma–every time than the astral monad, instead of running down to the end of its natural period of time in a body–finds itself violently thrown out of it by early death or accident or is compelled, in consequence of it’s unfinished task to reappear on earth again in order to complete the unfinished task. Thus it must try a second time to carry out the purpose of the creative intelligence” Ibid VII. p178/9.

I am suprised that none of the comments so far have addressed the life of the unborn foetus. The convenience of the woman is not the only factor at play. If a soul has begun to overshadow the foetus, then that living being has rights of its own, and there are Karmic consequences for both the unborn baby that has it’s life cut short, and the mother that terminates the life. For nine months, the mother has exclusive custody of the child, but beginning at birth, the father is also obligated by law and Karma to protect that life. He can’t kill a two day old baby because he doesn’t want to deal with it. And there is no difference in the degree of Spirit between a two day old baby and an 8 1/2 month old foetus.

 

[mikew262]

2.) A liberal is someone who is consistently wrong and never learns.

Ha! I like that, at least from a political point of view.

 

[ribozyme]

I felt so sad when I read this post - but, at the risk of hurting your feelings, it does support what the OP wrote in terms of the inherent selfishness and self-centeredness of pro-abortion people. Because YOU cannot find some coherent purpose in YOUR life you are not bothered that someone ELSE’S life is ended.

The men who have stayed true men, i.e. following the will of God rather than their own will, were disrespected horribly by this argument and made to feel as though their high moral values were worthless and unappreciated. So what happens? We now have thirty years of damaged women and men who think the right way to be supportive is to offer to drive their underage girlfriend to an abortion clinic and kill their own child.

I sometimes wonder if it would have made any difference to anyone if I was aborted in such an inchoate stage (like weeks after conception). After some cogitation, I was unable to ascertain a definite answer to this question. Perhaps that is one reason abortion does not bother me (but there are other reasons though).

I feel depressed because I think it is unlikely for make to make a significant contribution to the world. Reading some information about a billionaire philanthropist (guess which one) recently exacerbated those sentiments.

However, I am interested in remaining alive now. I think all I can be is a spectator… I want to see the triumph of technology and ideas defeat poverty throughout the world. I have no reason to expect this goal to be accomplished in a short time frame and I expect it might take an entire century. On the other hand, I am afraid that natural resources will run out and we would not have the means to acheive such great progress. But I have some hope in humanity, so sentiments of suicide do not form an umbra in my mind.

 

[Hallelujahhh]

Please search STOPP online. I am going to try to get involved with it in my area - it is a great site about halting the works of Planned Parenthood - a business that is in the business of abortion. How disgusting that abortion is a “business.”

 

[Hallelujahhh]

*but I respect the life of humans after the 20th week of conception because they can feel pain *

So the fact that one can “feel pain” is what makes them human?? What about people who are paralyzed below the neck? Does the fact their face only can feel pain make them human? What about someone who is unconscious and cannot feel anything? Does that mean they are not human? That is absolutely ridiculous to judge whether or not someone is human depending on whether or not they can feel pain.