Abortion

[ChurchSuffering]

So, the good news is, you have found out now that the Church teaches all life is precious, we may never kill babies or other innocent people, and we are called to help all those in need and to work towards an equitable society.

and to help each other get to heaven!

 

[twoshoes]

Hi,

I’m curious about The Church’s stance on abortion. Does anyone ever take into consideration the poverty a lot of single mothers face once they give birth? Sure, would be nice if they planned things better but many don’t. Does anyone ever vote for bills/amendments that would give more aid to the poor in addition to banning abortion?

Who ever gave you the right to decide what class of people should live or die. This is the veiled argument of Margret Sanger, the queen of eugenics, the queen of Planned Parent hood. Wealth has nothing to do with the right to life. If you were a concerned person you would work to end poverty by lifting all people, not killing them. You really need to read about all that is being done by the RCC for the Poor. Mother Teresa ring a bell, Catholic Charities, St. Vincent DePaul Society, Our Mothers house in my Diocese, Our Mothers house, a home for unwed mothers, Betheseda House, to HELP people with aides. The list goes on and on. and all you want to do is kill baby. Jesus please enlighten this person to your great works, and AWAKEN her dead heart.

 

[zz912]

1. How about the position that single parents and their (illegitimate) children have or can have in the Catholic Church?
2. Are they ever accepted as equal members?
3. How about women who are raped, conceive a child, then by the advice of Catholics, keep the child?
4. Don’t Catholics look down on such women?
5. Do Catholics ever actually accept such women into their fold?
6. Can such women marry and receive all the sacraments?

1. Not sure what position you are talking about. Illegitimate is a secular term used in the past for recognition of inheritence and other issues. The Church doesn’t differentiate children based upon the conditions of their conception or birth.
2. Yes. In fact, there was a woman and her young child in my RCIA class. They were both fully members of our group and the parish, and were fully made members of the Church at the Easter Vigil when they were baptized and confirmed.
3. God bless them. They are full members.
4. Nope. Not at all. Our parish helps run a center for young and unwed mothers to help them take care of themselves and their babies.
5. Yes, as many as we can find. Our doors are open.
6. Yes, except for Holy Orders, as that is reserved for men to be ordained. As mentioned above, that mother and her child received all the sacraments of initiation, and they are eligible for the sacrament of marriage if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Ignatius]

Hi,

I’m curious about The Church’s stance on abortion. Does anyone ever take into consideration the poverty a lot of single mothers face once they give birth?

There are so many single mothers in poverty. Is killing their children to alleviate the situation the answer?

 

[flufflepuff]

Why is it okay to end the life of someone who has not been born, but killing a newborn is bad? Why is it wrong to kill newborns who would end up in bad situations?

At any time in your horrible childhood, if someone had put a gun in your face and asked if you wanted him to shoot, would you have seriously said “yes?” Would you say “yes” now?

Even if you were having a low day and might have actually said “yes” at some time, do you think it would then be OK for the guy to pull the trigger?

The act of partially delivering a baby then crushing its skull or inserting a suction curette into a womb to dismember a baby one limb at a time as it tries to fight for its life is as evil as the worst atrocities ever committed by human beings. Who would financially support this child is a MEANINGLESS question.

Simple, most people look at cost. The USA has so much privilege it’s disgusting, and the gap between the haves and have nots continues to widen. Yeah, a lot of it is due to poor family structure, but I don’t see a lot of people stepping up trying to fix it, instead all I see is the “it’s not my problem” mentality. My mom was a single mother for a while and my father was horrible to the both of us, he used to beat her and more than a few times we would get into arguments with weapons drawn, he even tried to kill her. Give me a break, I have a lot to deal with, I had no idea such charities existed. I had a lot of evangelicals around me as a kid and it seemed like all they cared about was their bottom line.

Actually, yeah I would not have cared more than a few times in the past if my head was blown off, life was a lot more than I could handle. Infact last December my depression was so bad that the psychologist almost had me hospitalized. My life is in pieces and I’m giving God a try.

Hmmm, I could think of some people who did way worse things than abortion, Genghis Khan was pretty bad, the drawing and quartering the English did was bad, and boiling people in oil/water, ohhh that was a bad one too.

 

[rcwitness]

So, the good news is, you have found out now that the Church teaches all life is precious, we may never kill babies or other innocent people, and we are called to help all those in need and to work towards an equitable society.

flufflepuff,

Welcome to this forum. I get the impression you are coming from a very repressed childhood and maybe complete secular, worldly influence.

Many posters here have been a bit aggressive towards your questions. There is some very good reason to be very against abortion. What is more challenging, and not just the material assistance which you rightly acknowledge that we as Christians should offer, but also the spiritual message and faith in a living God who suffered torture and death so that He could reach our hearts that we are loved and forgiven in His sight.

I would rather die a million deaths as a starving child in my mothers loving arms who looked into my eyes with the love of Christ, than to never see her. This is what all mothers are called to do. Not to determine for themselves that they can snuff out a human life and try to justify it as mercifull. It is giving in to evil and saying, I am not loving, and not able to put my life in the hands of God, so I will do what I want as a sinner.

You are opening your mind to the Churchs Teaching. Do not look from far off, but enter into personal engagement. Go to a local Parish and ask about their RCIA program. Ask for our prayers here. I have faith enough to encourage you that God will provide hope and inspiration to open your heart and become a part of the effort against the world and its culture of death. Start with this and reading the New testament Scriptures. I personally love Luke alot. It covers much of the birth of Jesus too, which can be inspiring for desperate mothers. His own mother had alot of things to worry about!

I wish you peace and that you might be received by good people of God,

 

[Ignatius]

Simple, most people look at cost. .

That doesn’t answer the question It would cost less for single mothers living in poverty and society if you kill their children how is that any different?

I could think of some people who did way worse things than abortion, Genghis Khan was pretty bad,

Genghis Khan killed 50 million innocent children? Where do you get your “facts”? There is nothing to support that contention.

Do you know how they kill the baby in the womb? There are some videos on line if you want to see for yourself. First, they tear her little legs off, then they tear her arms off, an ultrasound used during the process shows the baby crying out in agony. The lucky ones are forced through the birth process, but stopped at the neck so the abortionist can crush their skull before the head is delivered. There is absolutely nothing that any of the barbarians did that even come close to what is done to an innocent baby in the womb.

Do some research on what happens during an abortion. It will change your mind if you have any heart at all.

 

[flufflepuff]

flufflepuff,

Welcome to this forum. I get the impression you are coming from a very repressed childhood and maybe complete secular, worldly influence.

Many posters here have been a bit aggressive towards your questions. There is some very good reason to be very against abortion. What is more challenging, and not just the material assistance which you rightly acknowledge that we as Christians should offer, but also the spiritual message and faith in a living God who suffered torture and death so that He could reach our hearts that we are loved and forgiven in His sight.

I would rather die a million deaths as a starving child in my mothers loving arms who looked into my eyes with the love of Christ, than to never see her. This is what all mothers are called to do. Not to determine for themselves that they can snuff out a human life and try to justify it as mercifull. It is giving in to evil and saying, I am not loving, and not able to put my life in the hands of God, so I will do what I want as a sinner.

You are opening your mind to the Churchs Teaching. Do not look from far off, but enter into personal engagement. Go to a local Parish and ask about their RCIA program. Ask for our prayers here. I have faith enough to encourage you that God will provide hope and inspiration to open your heart and become a part of the effort against the world and its culture of death. Start with this and reading the New testament Scriptures. I personally love Luke alot. It covers much of the birth of Jesus too, which can be inspiring for desperate mothers. His own mother had alot of things to worry about!

I wish you peace and that you might be received by good people of God,

That doesn’t answer the question It would cost less for single mothers living in poverty and society if you kill their children how is that any different?

Genghis Khan killed 50 million innocent children? Where do you get your “facts”? There is nothing to support that contention.

Do you know how they kill the baby in the womb? There are some videos on line if you want to see for yourself. First, they tear her little legs off, then they tear her arms off, an ultrasound used during the process shows the baby crying out in agony. The lucky ones are forced through the birth process, but stopped at the neck so the abortionist can crush their skull before the head is delivered. There is absolutely nothing that any of the barbarians did that even come close to what is done to an innocent baby in the womb.

Do some research on what happens during an abortion. It will change your mind if you have any heart at all.

Yes and no, a lot of my moms family was catholic, but she married someone with a doctorate in divinity who used his education to scam the gov’t and lie to people, even told me once blow your brains out and do the world a favor.

I’ve seen plenty of gore before and not much of it phases me, I was used as an expolitable resource by people since I was poor and didn’t have the protections of a strong family.
It’s not that I encourage abortion, but I think of my own life, the lack of concern, exploitation and having to fight back against my father who till the very end of me knowing him was out to get me. Ironically it was a Catholic family who came to the rescue when he almost killed her and I took a faceful of bear mace, no one else there so much raised a finger, they were too afraid of my father shooting them.

Already at a local parish and am being catechised. I can’t help some things, I’m in therapy for PTSD so a lot of things just fly over my head. I’m trying.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Khwarezmian_Empire
Read up on the siege of Baghdad. Way back when that was the center of learning in the western world, after Genghis Khan was through with it nothing was left save for rubble. People came back of course but he killed everyone he could get his hands on, women and children.
People always have and always will be brutal. Look at ISIS, sure they put captured women in harems, but they’re equal opportunity killers, look at all the innocents they’ve killed so far. There’s always someone worse out there.

 

[rcwitness]

Yes and no, a lot of my moms family was catholic, but she married someone with a doctorate in divinity who used his education to scam the gov’t and lie to people, even told me once blow your brains out and do the world a favor.

I’ve seen plenty of gore before and not much of it phases me, I was used as an expolitable resource by people since I was poor and didn’t have the protections of a strong family.
It’s not that I encourage abortion, but I think of my own life, the lack of concern, exploitation and having to fight back against my father who till the very end of me knowing him was out to get me. Ironically it was a Catholic family who came to the rescue when he almost killed her and I took a faceful of bear mace, no one else there so much raised a finger, they were too afraid of my father shooting them.

Already at a local parish and am being catechised. I can’t help some things, I’m in therapy for PTSD so a lot of things just fly over my head. I’m trying.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Khwarezmian_Empire
Read up on the siege of Baghdad. Way back when that was the center of learning in the western world, after Genghis Khan was through with it nothing was left save for rubble. People came back of course but he killed everyone he could get his hands on, women and children.
People always have and always will be brutal. Look at ISIS, sure they put captured women in harems, but they’re equal opportunity killers, look at all the innocents they’ve killed so far. There’s always someone worse out there.

Wow. I wish I could have some conversations with you. Your story is going to reach many as a strong testimony!

Im glad you are making these steps of faith even while struggling about some issues. This is a virtue! I think many of us can genuinely sympathize the desperate, and many times very young state of pregnant women who choose to abort their child. I have someone very close to me who chose abortions. Now, she and her husband look back and say, we could have dealt with another child… it was fear and foolishness.

 

[Ignatius]

Yes and no.

Perhaps this kind of healing will help: youtu.be/q-jBacBbNT4

God bless.

 

[cena]

It’s common for traditional patriarchal communities to ostracize raped women, physically or at least psychologically. A raped woman is considered “damaged goods” and a disgrace to her family and community.

In some Eastern countries, they kill the raped woman. Hindus tend to shun them, or kill them (honor killings). From what I have seen of Christians, they consider them damaged goods; although maybe not so openly or officially as in some other cultures.

My mother is an illegitimate child of two Catholics. Like all children back then, she was baptized in the Catholic Church. Later she discovered that the Catholic Church baptized illegitimate children and conferred confirmation and first communion to them; but kept no official record of the baptism of such children.
So this is discrimination against illegitimate children.

Do churches normally do that or was it just that church? Because at my church I couldn’t get confirmed until they got my baptismal certificate

Are you sure Catholics do this? I can see other religions and some Protestant denominations doing this, but Catholics? Keep in mind Catholics and Protestants like the Puritans, Amish, and Calvinists are very different

 

[Lucy107]

I’m not sure where you have gotten such ideas.

Where I grew up.

Yes, all are equal in the Church. No one is “looked down on”. Everyone has God-given dignity.

Interesting.

At any time in your horrible childhood, if someone had put a gun in your face and asked if you wanted him to shoot, would you have seriously said “yes?” Would you say “yes” now?

Even if you were having a low day and might have actually said “yes” at some time, do you think it would then be OK for the guy to pull the trigger?

It’s strange that some of you here seem to have trouble relating to those who grew up in a world where they have learned that life is cheap …
I, too, would think that everyone holds that life is cheap, or at least some people’s, like the life of those from underprivileged sectors of society.

Do churches normally do that or was it just that church? Because at my church I couldn’t get confirmed until they got my baptismal certificate

Are you sure Catholics do this?

At least some 70 years ago in the European countryside, that was the practice.
I don’t know how it is today; but the illegitimate children born then were stigmatized. Many of them still alive today, and some still feeling the burden of that stigma.

 

[flufflepuff]

Wow. I wish I could have some conversations with you. Your story is going to reach many as a strong testimony!

Im glad you are making these steps of faith even while struggling about some issues. This is a virtue! I think many of us can genuinely sympathize the desperate, and many times very young state of pregnant women who choose to abort their child. I have someone very close to me who chose abortions. Now, she and her husband look back and say, we could have dealt with another child… it was fear and foolishness.

Perhaps this kind of healing will help: youtu.be/q-jBacBbNT4

God bless.

Oh I agree, good chance a mother feels horrible after an abortion. I’ve read where that does all kinds of psychological damage to a child. Thing is with me since I had to live in not so nice places growing up I saw a lot of kids who were abused, and a few who i’m pretty sure were being raped. People are horrible to the poor.

Honestly I don’t want to be the kind of guy who’s the spokesperson with a strong testamony for the broken, really all I want to do is cure the mental problems best I can. I’m just hoping this works.

Aww, that video was so cute.

 

[flufflepuff]

Where I grew up.

Interesting.

It’s strange that some of you here seem to have trouble relating to those who grew up in a world where they have learned that life is cheap …
I, too, would think that everyone holds that life is cheap, or at least some people’s, like the life of those from underprivileged sectors of society.

Finally someone gets it…

 

[rcwitness]

Oh I agree, good chance a mother feels horrible after an abortion. I’ve read where that does all kinds of psychological damage to a child. Thing is with me since I had to live in not so nice places growing up I saw a lot of kids who were abused, and a few who i’m pretty sure were being raped. People are horrible to the poor.

Honestly I don’t want to be the kind of guy who’s the spokesperson with a strong testamony for the broken, really all I want to do is cure the mental problems best I can. I’m just hoping this works.

Aww, that video was so cute.

I dont mean you have to speak in front of audiences and go on tour…

But we are all our own spokesperson those around us. No matter what God has planned for you, I hope you are a Christian who shares your faith with those around you. I get tired of cafeteria Catholics who never talk about Jesus (they are a dime a dozen). They just live life like one of those soap operas that deals with all kinds of lifes drama and situations but never recognizes Jesus and what He means to us in our daily struggles.

 

[flufflepuff]

I dont mean you have to speak in front of audiences and go on tour…

But we are all our own spokesperson those around us. No matter what God has planned for you, I hope you are a Christian who shares your faith with those around you. I get tired of cafeteria Catholics who never talk about Jesus (they are a dime a dozen). They just live life like one of those soap operas that deals with all kinds of lifes drama and situations but never recognizes Jesus and what He means to us in our daily struggles.

Most I would do would be recommend Church, that’s what a friend of mine did. The USA really shot themselves in the foot with religion, especially the protestants and evangelicals. There are a few generations of people, especially men who outright despise religion due to the bad apples out there.
For me it was the simple advice that not only would they care, they would not turn me away. So far they know of the issues I have and have been more than welcoming.
What would worry me isn’t so much them talking about Jesus, but fighting for the rights Christians used to have. I hear about kids getting in trouble for having Christian prayer, favoring mosques for votes (in MI) and other things of that nature. Sure, I had a horrible experience growing up but for a “Christian” nation like the USA they sure like to forget things like the family values the Church enforced as well as more humane treatment of the homeless, mentally ill and lower classes.
I’ve seen people rip on Europe, but some of the most pious people i’ve ever met were Europeans. I didn’t mean to cause the uproar I did with abortion, but now that i’ve explained myself a bit more hope that satisfies a few people out there.
Personally I say if you want to be pro life take a look at Spain, I have a feeling the pro life people over there are veeeery much into social welfare, justice, and protection of all life not just life in the womb.

 

[on_the_hill]

How about the position that single parents and their (illegitimate) children have or can have in the Catholic Church?

Obviously they have no position. Every member of the church, worldwide, has to submit to blood tests.

Are they ever accepted as equal members?

**No. **

How about women who are raped, conceive a child, then by the advice of Catholics, keep the child?

**They have to sit in a separate section that is reserved for them. **

Don’t Catholics look down on such women? Do Catholics ever actually accept such women into their fold?

**Don’t be silly. Of course they’re not accepted. **

Can such women marry and receive all the sacraments?

**No. Since they’re not accepted into the Church and are always looked down upon by everyone, the only sacrament they can receive is a free pass out the door. **

Every single one of these questions is so absurdly ridiculous that there’s no way to answer them in a serious manner. By the way, every answer I gave is completely false.

 

[Lucy107]

Every single one of these questions is so absurdly ridiculous that there’s no way to answer them in a serious manner. By the way, every answer I gave is completely false.

Count yourself fortunate that you can take for granted things that many other people have to work for very hard.

 

[flufflepuff]

Count yourself fortunate that you can take for granted things that many other people have to work for very hard.

I think in the near future we will see a lot more people who do have to work very hard and in due time fight for. The level of social inequality is getting scary. My best friend who is Catholic and comes from a Catholic family said it best. He had a discussion with his dad who’s a vietnam vet and he thinks we’re going to see a lot more social unrest. There’s so much poverty and people are just so nasty to eachother now for no good reason, no one cares anymore.

 

[Secant]

Flufflepuff,

I’m truly sorry that your situation was so terrible. I also sympathize with your needing therapy. However, life is not cheap and those who treat it as such are wrong. Love and forgiveness can eventually heal those wounds, however.

I am very good friends with a woman who was sexually assaulted from the time she was nine until she was twenty-five. At one point, she found herself pregnant and did not know if the father of the child was her father or her boyfriend. She had to quit working on her advanced degree due to the health complications of pregnancy, these complications also resulted in her never being able to have another child. To me, this woman was the poster child for rape, incest, and life of the mother in one pregnancy. She chose to have the child (illegitimately) and live in a situation that was short on money. Years down the road, she is happily married and a grandmother. She may not have been in poverty, but was never far from it.

This woman tells me the trick to overcoming these things is two-fold. You need to get help, and most important, no matter how hard it is, you need to forgive those who wronged you. If you can forgive, then you will heal because forgiving is not about them, it’s about you and your health. A relative of hers who was in a similar situation hasn’t tried to forgive those who hurt her and she doesn’t handle life well.

PS. I call this amazing woman, “Mom,” which is why I stand against abortion (aside from the excellent Catholic reasons).