Abortion

[adamhovey1988]

Hi,

I’m curious about The Church’s stance on abortion. Does anyone ever take into consideration the poverty a lot of single mothers face once they give birth? Sure, would be nice if they planned things better but many don’t. Does anyone ever vote for bills/amendments that would give more aid to the poor in addition to banning abortion?

Shouldn’t the fact there are more abortions than adoptions strike you as odd?

 

[cena]

The Catholic Church generally supports welfare programs for the poor. It does warn against making the state totally responsible for human welfare and teaches the doctrine of “subsidiarity,” according to which everything should be done at the lowest level of centralization possible. Some American conservative Catholics use this to argue for something close to libertarianism and to vote against government assistance to the poor, but this is very far from the mainstream position of the Church worldwide and also goes against what the U.S. bishops as a whole say.

So yes. Catholics in general support welfare programs, although some American Catholics interpret (I would say misinterpret, but perhaps I don’t have the right to say that) Catholic teaching in a different way.

Of course, those Catholics who take this position (and indeed all Catholics) support private charity, and in particular support efforts by the Church to care for the poor.
Edwin

Popes like John Paul II didn’t agree with it
There’s a lot more information here catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9533

Is this an issue that the Church does not have a definite teaching on? I know it has condemned socialism and communism but what about this?

 

[ccmcmg]

Hi,

I’m curious about The Church’s stance on abortion. Does anyone ever take into consideration the poverty a lot of single mothers face once they give birth? Sure, would be nice if they planned things better but many don’t. Does anyone ever vote for bills/amendments that would give more aid to the poor in addition to banning abortion?

There is a perfect way already created not to get pregnant; it’s called abstinence. It’s even free! And doesn’t harm your health, and doesn’t kill anyone.

Oh I agree, good chance a mother feels horrible after an abortion. I’ve read where that does all kinds of psychological damage to a child. Thing is with me since I had to live in not so nice places growing up I saw a lot of kids who were abused, and a few who i’m pretty sure were being raped. People are horrible to the poor.

Just so you know, those things happen in every economic ‘class’. I’m sorry you had to live with that. And I’d like to correct you: SOME people are horrible to the poor. Too many, yes, but not all; if you put yourself around the right people, you’ll see that.

Well, as you know we are all fallen people, sinful people.

“What the Church teaches” and “how people behave” are often not the same.

Just because someone treated someone else poorly 70 years ago does not mean that this is a teaching of the Church or how people SHOULD treat others.

Truth. While at any moment we represent any number of groups of people (Catholic, women, white, middle aged, overweight, mother of boys, someone who lives in an apartment instead of a house, dog owner, cat owner, fish owner, etc etc etc), we are representing those groups. The least of these groups does not represent the whole of the group. Should the whole ‘group’ be condemned for the actions of its lowest which are not in its control?

But some people do. Hearing “What’s she doing here?!” whispered behind one’s back is not … particularly encouraging.
While few Christians will openly condemn someone, it’s the constant little jabs, the whispers behind one’s back that do it.
An open, straightforward condemnation is easier to live with, because then at least one knows where one is at. But the secretive, indirect mistreatment behind the public appearance of a righteous person – that is much harder to live with.

Part of submitting our own self to God is not to worry about what our neighbors around us in Mass or in the Church, think. It isn’t easy, because this world teaches us to worry about the Jones family next door in order to ‘win’. Life isn’t a competition, therefore judging based on circumstances or appearances is not needed. We can’t change others, but we can change our reactions to them.

You know, this is one reason why I brought this topic up, a lot of people argue religious law, but while the USA does do some things for the poor it pales in comparison to Europe and even Canada. The poor here are so marginalized it’s disgusting. Sure, I agree abortion is bad, but when you don’t address peoples reasons behind whatever cause they’re championing all you end up with is a bitter Mexican standoff. I use that phrase because i’ve never seen two people more ready to rip eachotehrs throats out than the pro lie/pro choice people. I can think of a few more, but i’m not bringing them up. Anyway, In the past I did see child care/adoption desks set up at my old college that were usually backed by some Christian organization, why not focus more on those? Honestly those anti-abortion protests where they show whats left of a baby are disgusting but the average person is so desensitized not to many people, especially men really care. I’ll be honest, it never phased me one bit. I think Jesus had the best idea, approach people with loving kindness instead of in a confrontational manner, you get more bees with honey after all.

I’m sorry that you have turned to the cynical side of things, and for the things that happened in your life that makes you feel that way. I encourage you to continue to increase your prayer life with our Lord and Savior; turn to Mary, the Saints and the angels for even more prayers. You haven’t seen the same images I have, apparently, or I keep that kind of filth out of my life more than others do. It’s real, not video games or a movie.

I will pray for those suffering in their lives, due to their childhood and adult issues, especially those that have things that keep them from being at peace with both themselves and God. It isn’t easy, but reconciling with the Lord is the best way to reconcile yourself completely on this earth.

 

[openmind77]

You know, this is one reason why I brought this topic up, a lot of people argue religious law, but while the USA does do some things for the poor it pales in comparison to Europe and even Canada. The poor here are so marginalized it’s disgusting. Sure, I agree abortion is bad, but when you don’t address peoples reasons behind whatever cause they’re championing all you end up with is a bitter Mexican standoff. I use that phrase because i’ve never seen two people more ready to rip eachotehrs throats out than the pro lie/pro choice people. I can think of a few more, but i’m not bringing them up. Anyway, In the past I did see child care/adoption desks set up at my old college that were usually backed by some Christian organization, why not focus more on those? Honestly those anti-abortion protests where they show whats left of a baby are disgusting but the average person is so desensitized not to many people, especially men really care. I’ll be honest, it never phased me one bit. I think Jesus had the best idea, approach people with loving kindness instead of in a confrontational manner, you get more bees with honey after all.

The question of abortion is far more complicated than just the ‘killing’ of unborn children. There are arguments to be made on both sides - the right of a woman to control and have autonomy over her own body versus the right of the unborn. I think the only way it will be resolved is when the Christ returns and tells us how to balance these two sides. Luckily for us the Christ will return to the world in less than two years and then we can settle this problem.

However, ultimately this problem will be solved by technology. Some day it will be possible to transplant a fetus safely from a mother with an unwanted pregnancy to a pro life person - then everyone will be happy.

 

[a_priori]

The question of abortion is far more complicated than just the ‘killing’ of unborn children.

No it’s not. Entering a womb that contains an image-bearer of Christ created by God’s Divine Providence and painfully tearing it apart tiny bone by tiny bone and and sucking precious flesh and sinew into a glass jar to be discarded like so much garbage is not an unambiguous act. It is the willfull torturing and killing of an innocent. Any suggestion that it is not is a rationalization by someone with a very utilitarian telos.

 

[rcwitness]

The question of abortion is far more complicated than just the ‘killing’ of unborn children.

Not really

There are arguments to be made on both sides - the right of a woman to control and have autonomy over her own body versus the right of the unborn.

Thats not much of an argument, but a choice. The choice was already made to have sex, which is the situation of the vast majority of women seeking abortions. In cases of rape, I find it impossible to believe the support of the local Church community and the State would not afford the mother more than sufficient needs to provide. Though it may take a very saintly Christian to give birth to the child of a rape, it is a fundamental Christian principle that we are dead to our old nature, which deserves damnation from God yet are given eternal life in receiving the Holy Spirit of the Father and Son, therefore we do as Christ would have us do and not ourselves. Woe to the person who says Christ would have us destroy what He has given sacred life.

I think the only way it will be resolved is when the Christ returns and tells us how to balance these two sides.

We do not have to despair without a resolution because the culture of this world opposes us. We stand firm in the faith of God.

Luckily for us the Christ will return to the world in less than two years and then we can settle this problem.

And you know this because???

However, ultimately this problem will be solved by technology. Some day it will be possible to transplant a fetus safely from a mother with an unwanted pregnancy to a pro life person - then everyone will be happy.

That sounds likely to you? Maybe the technology, but the practicality of it is far more complicated than the practicality of adopting which doesnt prevent mass amounts of abortions from continuing.

 

[openmind77]

No it’s not. Entering a womb that contains an image-bearer of Christ created by God’s Divine Providence and painfully tearing it apart tiny bone by tiny bone and and sucking precious flesh and sinew into a glass jar to be discarded like so much garbage is not an unambiguous act. It is the willfull torturing and killing of an innocent. Any suggestion that it is not is a rationalization by someone with a very utilitarian telos.

Like I said we just have to wait a couple years and hear from the Christ himself what he thinks of it.

I hope you will accept whatever he says without question even if it does not agree with your opinion.

 

[john_ennis]

The question of abortion is far more complicated than just the ‘killing’ of unborn children. There are arguments to be made on both sides - the right of a woman to control and have autonomy over her own body versus the right of the unborn. I think the only way it will be resolved is when the Christ returns and tells us how to balance these two sides. Luckily for us the Christ will return to the world in less than two years and then we can settle this problem.

However, ultimately this problem will be solved by technology. Some day it will be possible to transplant a fetus safely from a mother with an unwanted pregnancy to a pro life person - then everyone will be happy.

The question of slavery is complicated. There are arguments to be made on both sides–the right of a property-owner to control and have autonomy over his own property, and the right of the slave (who some say is a person). Luckily Christ will return and then we can settle this problem.
Ultimately it may be settled by economics; someday no one will need slaves.
Peace.
John

 

[a_priori]

Like I said we just have to wait a couple years and hear from the Christ himself what he thinks of it.

I hope you will accept whatever he says without question even if it does not agree with your opinion.

I agree with your signature.

 

[cena]

Like I said we just have to wait a couple years and hear from the Christ himself what he thinks of it.

I hope you will accept whatever he says without question even if it does not agree with your opinion.

What are you talking about? No one knows when Christ is coming back

The Holy Spirit has already guided the Church on what God’s opinion of abortion is

 

[a_priori]

What are you talking about? No one knows when Christ is coming back

The Holy Spirit has already guided the Church on what God’s opinion of abortion is

 

[openmind77]

The question of slavery is complicated. There are arguments to be made on both sides–the right of a property-owner to control and have autonomy over his own property, and the right of the slave (who some say is a person). Luckily Christ will return and then we can settle this problem.
Ultimately it may be settled by economics; someday no one will need slaves.
Peace.
John

There were no arguments for slavery (what a ridiculous thing to say that there are two sides).

However, a majority of people in most countries want to keep abortion legal - so there are indeed thoughtful people on both sides.

It is best to leave it to someone like the Christ to mediate and he will be here pretty soon - less than two years.

 

[cena]

There were no arguments for slavery (what a ridiculous thing to say that there are two sides).

However, a majority of people in most countries want to keep abortion legal - so there are indeed thoughtful people on both sides.

It is best to leave it to someone like the Christ to mediate and he will be here pretty soon - less than two years.

Abortion is murder. I think the other poster was saying that a majority of people wanted slavery but that does not make it okay.
why are you saying Christ is coming here in less than two years

 

[rcwitness]

It is best to leave it to someone like the Christ to mediate and he will be here pretty soon - less than two years.

Id be very cautious making this statement, as you are determined to repeat. I dont think this will keep you in this forum long. But take that as friendly advice.

 

[beleg]

There were no arguments for slavery (what a ridiculous thing to say that there are two sides).

However, a majority of people in most countries want to keep abortion legal - so there are indeed thoughtful people on both sides.

It is best to leave it to someone like the Christ to mediate and he will be here pretty soon - less than two years.

There were plenty of thoughtful people on both sides of the slavery issue: here are but a few arguments that have been made for slavery.

And just because there are “thoughtful people” on both sides doesn’t mean that there isn’t a correct answer. The Catholic Church has always held that the killing of a human being - a status that both unborn and born humans fall under - is gravely immoral. Christ made his teachings on murder clear, and the Holy Spirit has guided the Church in the years since then.

Your religious affiliation says you’re Hindu - why would you believe that Christ is returning in two years? In any case, Christianity teaches that we cannot know when Christ will return.

 

[openmind77]

There were plenty of thoughtful people on both sides of the slavery issue: here are but a few arguments that have been made for slavery.

Why anybody would even mention this, is beyond me. Just reflects on your values.

And just because there are “thoughtful people” on both sides doesn’t mean that there isn’t a correct answer. The Catholic Church has always held that the killing of a human being - a status that both unborn and born humans fall under - is gravely immoral. Christ made his teachings on murder clear, and the Holy Spirit has guided the Church in the years since then.

Your religious affiliation says you’re Hindu - why would you believe that Christ is returning in two years? In any case, Christianity teaches that we cannot know when Christ will return.

When a majority has an opinion, it does matter a lot in a democracy.

It does not matter what the Church or anyone else has been saying if the Christ disagrees with it. He will be here soon, so we don’t have to guess what he believes or have hopes of having been guided by the holy spirit.

 

[cena]

Why anybody would even mention this, is beyond me. Just reflects on your values.

When a majority has an opinion, it does matter a lot in a democracy.

It does not matter what the Church or anyone else has been saying if the Christ disagrees with it. He will be here soon, so we don’t have to guess what he believes or have hopes of having been guided by the holy spirit.

The point is having thoughtful arguments or a majority in favor of something immoral does not make it moral. The Church is against slavery.
The apostles condemned abortion and Christ taught them

 

[openmind77]

The point is having thoughtful arguments or a majority in favor of something immoral does not make it moral. The Church is against slavery.
The apostles condemned abortion and Christ taught them

I am not sure where exactly the apostles mentioned abortion - maybe you can cite chapter/verse. However I would rather let the Christ tell me what is right when there so much controversy over some issue. That will be settled soon when he returns.

 

[cena]

I am not sure where exactly the apostles mentioned abortion - maybe you can cite chapter/verse. However I would rather let the Christ tell me what is right when there so much controversy over some issue. That will be settled soon when he returns.

The didache is the teachings of the apostles
Ch 2 Verse 2"thou shalt not procure abortion,"
thedidache.com/

I thought you were Hindu…? We have no idea when Christ is coming back

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I am not sure where exactly the apostles mentioned abortion - maybe you can cite chapter/verse. However I would rather let the Christ tell me what is right when there so much controversy over some issue. That will be settled soon when he returns.

Gosh I hope He comes soon but here’s one difference between us --I don’t know when He will return. You seem to know. Maybe you can cite the chapter and verse for me?