This may be good advice you can give to pregnant women, but that does not give you or the government the right to force her to do or not do anything - the final decision should always be hers and hers alone.Abortion is not a safe procedure. There are two main ways to procure abortions, legally. The first is chemical. The chemical used has not been extensively tested, often causes major bleeding, occasionally to death, and greatly increases cancer risks. Is an extensive hospital stay (not required to be free unless for childbirth or immediate life-threatening care) or cancer treatment easily affordable for poor women? The other way is surgical. No surgeon will ever call surgery safe (my doctor treats a D&E - used legitimately in post pregnancy complications and identical to abortion as a surgery). If they did, you wouldn’t have to sign a mountain of paperwork for the understanding of risks involved. This is on top of the fact that having an abortion, especially in lower income women, leads to higher risks of depression, drug use and suicide. All hospitals must accept a woman in labor whether or not she can pay. Abortion, on the other hand, costs money, so a woman MUST be able to pay. Giving up a child for adoption is much less costly. Abortion attacks poor women far more than childbirth.
her infant is not her property she has no right to kill itThis may be good advice you can give to pregnant women, but that does not give you or the government the right to force her to do or not do anything - the final decision should always be hers and hers alone.
This is your belief that he stated such the thing - it is not mine and neither apparently of the millions of Christians who have left the Church and still remain Christian. So it is clear that you can believe in the Christ and also not believe that the Church teachings are perfect - nothing illogical about it.Also, Chriat stated that he would protect his Church from error by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is only wishful thinking if you deny Jesus, which as you continue to say that he is coming, puts you in a rather illogical position of stating that you believe him to be coming, yet deny what he has already taught, which includes that he will be coming.
Exactly, we differ on whether a fetus is a human person or not. Such a question is impossible to resolve, so you should not try to impose your belief on anyone else. It is better that someone like the Christ suggests a resolution. He should know and hopefully you will not question his judgment (I definitely will not)Ok, while I actually can argue your point, let’s ignore what the Church says on the issue and look at this from a logical standpoint.
Thus, is a human fetus a human person?
- Premeditated killing of a human person is murder, wrong, and should be illegal. You have stated that to be true, I believe.
- Premeditated killing of a human fetus is abortion (as opposed to miscarriage). We will use this definition for the sake of the discussion so that we do not talk past each other.
This is where we disagree, yes? I say they are a person, you say they are not.
Please define what makes a human organism a person.
I know you didnt intend to call the faith of the Church illogical, but that is how it reads.Ok, while I actually can argue your point, let’s ignore what the Church says on the issue and look at this from a logical standpoint.
Abortion is imposing a little more than mere belief on the baby!Exactly, we differ on whether a fetus is a human person or not. Such a question is impossible to resolve, so you should not try to impose your belief on anyone else. It is better that someone like the Christ suggests a resolution. He should know and hopefully you will not question his judgment (I definitely will not
Here you go, found some more infoThat doesn’t answer the question It would cost less for single mothers living in poverty and society if you kill their children how is that any different?
Genghis Khan killed 50 million innocent children? Where do you get your “facts”? There is nothing to support that contention.
Do you know how they kill the baby in the womb? There are some videos on line if you want to see for yourself. First, they tear her little legs off, then they tear her arms off, an ultrasound used during the process shows the baby crying out in agony. The lucky ones are forced through the birth process, but stopped at the neck so the abortionist can crush their skull before the head is delivered. There is absolutely nothing that any of the barbarians did that even come close to what is done to an innocent baby in the womb.
Do some research on what happens during an abortion. It will change your mind if you have any heart at all.
The imposition is on the pregnant woman. The fetus can only be considered separate from her if it can live independently of her - otherwise she gets to decide for both of them.Abortion is imposing a little more than mere belief on the baby!
Fetus’ have been observed to laugh and cry in the womb.
The issue for pregnant women wanting an abortion is not being pregnant, but having and raising a child from themselves.The imposition is on the pregnant woman. The fetus can only be considered separate from her if it can live independently of her - otherwise she gets to decide for both of them.
I don’t think this logically follows and neither do millions of other people.… But instead of starting at that premise, we can prove it through logical means. Any definition of personhood that can be logically proven to be remotely moral, puts a fetus, embryo, and/or zygote to be a human person and thus abortion to be murder.
Yes, God gave us a logical mind and your logic is not valid. So best not keep arguing in circles and wait for someone like the Christ to resolve the issue ( BTW those who agree with me are usually the better educated, more ‘logical’, more ‘thoughtful’ people or have you failed to notice that?)It is not only a declaration of the Church and as such Jesus, but also through logic (because the Church uses logic). You will come to the same conclusion with either starting point, but for those who don’t agree with the Church, we can come to the conclusion without relying solely on the Church. God gave us a logical mind for a reason.
A theological definition would of course involve a soul etc, so we should leave that definition to the Christ and talk strictly in terms of logic and reason.Rather than attacking my training in logic or intellect, answer my question. What makes a person a person? Give me a definition of a human person that excludes no human person yet manages to exclude a fetus.
It’s a Hindu thing. They sometimes pick and choose a person they worship, and anyone can be such a person they worship, if it so pleases a particular Hindu. A politician or a business person, for example, can be worshipped. With an altar and regular offerings etc.I am a bit confused, it is great you hold Jesus Christ as authority but why do you if you are Hindu?
I know that this is a bit of a late response, but I’d like to go through your responses.If the Christ says I am wrong, I will accept it. The question is will you?
A woman should have complete control and autonomy over what happens to her body and how it is used. It is her decision and nobody else’s. It is her personal liberty and autonomy as a human being which is at stake. Nobody should be telling her what she should do with her body.
- True
- That is why we should let the Christ decide/mediate between the two views
3 I (along with millions of others) do not consider it murder
4 true
5 Every cell in my body in genetically human. Each cell is not a human
6 true
7 I (along with millions) disagree. A fetus is not a human
Actually, I think it’s not even necessary to try do define the personhood of the fetus based on the observed characteristics of the fetus.Rather than attacking my training in logic or intellect, answer my question. What makes a person a person? Give me a definition of a human person that excludes no human person yet manages to exclude a fetus.