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openmind77
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No mention of abortion there. Now you know when he is coming back - within a couple of years.
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Tantum_ergo
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You appear to have missed this:No mention of abortion there. Now you know when he is coming back - within a couple of years.
You also seem to have missed several people’s requests to know by whose authority you can claim to ‘know’ the return of Christ.But the second commandment of the teaching is this:
2. “Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery”; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; “thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods”;
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beleg
Guest
You said, and I quote, “There were no arguments for slavery”. I merely wanted to show you that that is plain wrong. That there are arguments for it, none of which are my own, does not reflect on my values. I have never condoned slavery, nor did I imply that I do.Why anybody would even mention this, is beyond me. Just reflects on your values.
Like cena said, my point was in showing that immoral actions can be and have been “justified” by people who cannot see that they are immoral.
You seem to be under the impression that moral law is democratic. It isn’t. If I were the only one in the world who still thought abortion was wrong, I would still be correct. Just because everyone else thinks something is alright does not make it so. Morality isn’t relative - it is an intrinsic law of the universe, same as the laws of physics or the laws of logic. It does not change, and is not swayed by popular opinion.When a majority has an opinion, it does matter a lot in a democracy.
Christ founded the Church and sent the Holy Spirit to protect it from error. It does matter what the Church has been saying, because it teaches exactly what Christ wants it to teach: the truth.It does not matter what the Church or anyone else has been saying if the Christ disagrees with it. He will be here soon, so we don’t have to guess what he believes or have hopes of having been guided by the holy spirit.
And, please tell - when exactly is Jesus coming, since you seem to know.
I’m starting to think that you’re a troll, to be perfectly honest.
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openmind77
Guest
Sorry it does seem to mention abortion, but this was written long after the real apostles died, so clearly not written by them and apparently not made part of the Bible.You appear to have missed this:
You also seem to have missed several people’s requests to know by whose authority you can claim to ‘know’ the return of Christ.
So like I said, I would prefer to learn the truth from the Christ himself when he returns.
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cena
Guest
People from the early church reference itSorry it does seem to mention abortion, but this was written long after the real apostles died, so clearly not written by them and apparently not made part of the Bible.
So like I said, I would prefer to learn the truth from the Christ himself when he returns.
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openmind77
Guest
If there is a dispute about what is the Moral law, the majority is very likely correct, particularly in a democracy.You said, and I quote, “There were no arguments for slavery”. I merely wanted to show you that that is plain wrong. That there are arguments for it, none of which are my own, does not reflect on my values. I have never condoned slavery, nor did I imply that I do.
Like cena said, my point was in showing that immoral actions can be and have been “justified” by people who cannot see that they are immoral.
You seem to be under the impression that moral law is democratic. It isn’t. If I were the only one in the world who still thought abortion was wrong, I would still be correct. Just because everyone else thinks something is alright does not make it so. Morality isn’t relative - it is an intrinsic law of the universe, same as the laws of physics or the laws of logic. It does not change, and is not swayed by popular opinion.
Christ founded the Church and sent the Holy Spirit to protect it from error. It does matter what the Church has been saying, because it teaches exactly what Christ wants it to teach: the truth.
And, please tell - when exactly is Jesus coming, since you seem to know.
I’m starting to think that you’re a troll, to be perfectly honest.
Of course, each person probably thinks that he (or his Church) is correct, but I would rather believe in someone like the Christ. The claim about protection by the Holy Spirit is yet to be tested because no such authority like the Christ has been available up to now, but soon will be.
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cena
Guest
I am a bit confused, it is great you hold Jesus Christ as authority but why do you if you are Hindu?If there is a dispute about what is the Moral law, the majority is very likely correct, particularly in a democracy.
Of course, each person probably thinks that he (or his Church) is correct, but I would rather believe in someone like the Christ. The claim about protection by the Holy Spirit is yet to be tested because no such authority like the Christ has been available up to now, but soon will be.
The protection by the Holy Spirit has been proven because Jesus talked about it and if you look at Church history there is no way the Church should have survived after the things that have tried to destroy it without divine intervention (heresies, being martyred, schism)
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beleg
Guest
The majority has been wrong about plenty of things before - such as slavery. Most people in America in the 1700s and 1800s were at least ambivalent about it even if they didn’t outright support it.If there is a dispute about what is the Moral law, the majority is very likely correct, particularly in a democracy.
Of course, each person probably thinks that he (or his Church) is correct, but I would rather believe in someone like the Christ. The claim about protection by the Holy Spirit is yet to be tested because no such authority like the Christ has been available up to now, but soon will be.
People are shaped by their cultures, and if their culture tells them something is right, they’ll be much more likely to think so too than if the culture didn’t say anything.
Saying that something must be right because everyone else says to is poor reasoning. You have to have solid logic to back up your statements. I have yet to see any reasonable argument come from you. What happens if Christ returns and says that you are wrong?
Catholicism’s logic for opposing abortion (besides saying that Jesus and the apostles were against it) goes like this:
- Humans are made in the image of God and therefore have dignity and deserve respect from all others.
- Life is a sacred gift from God which cannot be taken away.
- Murder is the premeditated killing of another human being, and is always wrong, because it disrespects human dignity and the gift of life.
- Scientifically speaking, a human is a member of the species Homo sapiens.
- Since fetuses created by the sexual reproduction of human beings are genetically Homo sapiens they are humans.
- Induced abortion (as opposed to a miscarriage) is the premeditated killing of a fetus.
- Therefore, the induced abortion of a human fetus is murder, and thus is immoral.
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openmind77
Guest
If the Christ says I am wrong, I will accept it. The question is will you?The majority has been wrong about plenty of things before - such as slavery. Most people in America in the 1700s and 1800s were at least ambivalent about it even if they didn’t outright support it.
People are shaped by their cultures, and if their culture tells them something is right, they’ll be much more likely to think so too than if the culture didn’t say anything.
Saying that something must be right because everyone else says to is poor reasoning. You have to have solid logic to back up your statements. I have yet to see any reasonable argument come from you. What happens if Christ returns and says that you are wrong?
Catholicism’s logic for opposing abortion (besides saying that Jesus and the apostles were against it) goes like this:
What’s your reasoning for allowing abortion?
- Humans are made in the image of God and therefore have dignity and deserve respect from all others.
- Life is a sacred gift from God which cannot be taken away.
- Murder is the premeditated killing of another human being, and is always wrong, because it disrespects human dignity and the gift of life.
- Scientifically speaking, a human is a member of the species Homo sapiens.
- Since fetuses created by the sexual reproduction of human beings are genetically Homo sapiens they are humans.
- Induced abortion (as opposed to a miscarriage) is the premeditated killing of a fetus.
- Therefore, the induced abortion of a human fetus is murder, and thus is immoral.
- True
- That is why we should let the Christ decide/mediate between the two views
3 I (along with millions of others) do not consider it murder
4 true
5 Every cell in my body in genetically human. Each cell is not a human
6 true
7 I (along with millions) disagree. A fetus is not a human
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cena
Guest
Doesn’t give her the right to kill someone. Abortion isn’t just removing the infant’s body it kills it then removes it. Killing someone is taking away their right to live.If the Christ says I am wrong, I will accept it. The question is will you?
A woman should have complete control and autonomy over what happens to her body and how it is used. It is her decision and nobody else’s. It is her personal liberty and autonomy as a human being which is at stake. Nobody should be telling her what she should do with her body.
- True
- That is why we should let the Christ decide/mediate between the two views
3 I (along with millions of others) do not consider it murder
4 true
5 Every cell in my body in genetically human. Each cell is not a human
6 true
7 I (along with millions) disagree. A fetus is not a human
The Holy Spirit has decided this, Jesus has the same views as the Holy Spirit so Jesus is against this.
When does someone become human?
Also no one should ever tell a woman what to do with her body? Can I cut myself, become anorexic or bulimic, or attempt suicide and no one should tell me not to do it? Should I have the right to sell myself into slavery? The “my body my choice” Argument is too vague.
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Secant
Guest
A fetus is undeniably human, no reputable (even pro choice) scientist on the planet disagrees. A fetus, term meaning young one, is a distinct human organism. Your cells are human cells. This is all known by solid, undeniable science. The question you probably mean to pose is whether or not the fetus is a human “person,” on which we disagree (and studies in America have shown that the majority find abortion to be wrong). Thus, aside from the answer we are all awaiting on the second coming of Christ (by what authority do you state that he is returning in less than two years), please answer this, “what characteristic defines a person?” “How does a fetus lack that characteristic in a way that no human person does not?”
Yes, I will accept what Christ says on the matter, but I suspect he will say, “why have you not listened to the teaching body I provided you?” After all, he says, “whatever you bind on earth, you bind in heaven.” He also says, “go out and teach all nations.”
Yes, I will accept what Christ says on the matter, but I suspect he will say, “why have you not listened to the teaching body I provided you?” After all, he says, “whatever you bind on earth, you bind in heaven.” He also says, “go out and teach all nations.”
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zz912
Guest
No, it’s not.The question of abortion is far more complicated than just the ‘killing’ of unborn children.
She has no rights to control/kill the body of the unborn child in her womb.There are arguments to be made on both sides - the right of a woman to control and have autonomy over her own body versus the right of the unborn.
.I think the only way it will be resolved is when the Christ returns and tells us how to balance these two sides
We already have the Bride of Christ, who He gave divine authority to. And she has declared it as evil. We don’t need to wait, when He has already spoken. Listen to whom He gave authority and commanded us to listen to.
You’ve claimed this in several other threads. So I’m calling you out to lay down your marker now. Will you, on February 15, 2017 officially renounce your claims of divine knowledge about the return of Christ, admit your error, and join the Catholic Church who knows better than you?Luckily for us the Christ will return to the world in less than two years and then we can settle this problem.
Who’s to say that this is moral?However, ultimately this problem will be solved by technology. Some day it will be possible to transplant a fetus safely from a mother with an unwanted pregnancy to a pro life person - then everyone will be happy.
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openmind77
Guest
You are right. The fetus is human just like every cell in my body, but every cell in my body is not a human being or a human ‘person’ and neither is the fetus.A fetus is undeniably human, no reputable (even pro choice) scientist on the planet disagrees. A fetus, term meaning young one, is a distinct human organism. Your cells are human cells. This is all known by solid, undeniable science. The question you probably mean to pose is whether or not the fetus is a human “person,” on which we disagree (and studies in America have shown that the majority find abortion to be wrong). Thus, aside from the answer we are all awaiting on the second coming of Christ (by what authority do you state that he is returning in less than two years), please answer this, “what characteristic defines a person?” “How does a fetus lack that characteristic in a way that no human person does not?”
Yes, I will accept what Christ says on the matter, but I suspect he will say, “why have you not listened to the teaching body I provided you?” After all, he says, “whatever you bind on earth, you bind in heaven.” He also says, “go out and teach all nations.”
I am glad you will accept whatever the Christ will say on the matter, but I suspect many will reject him if he does not agree with their own view - this will very likely cause a major schism.
Actually, what I think the Christ will say is that abortion is not a good thing, it should be avoided if at all possible, but self-righteous people should learn to mind their own business, and let the woman make her own decision. Men, especially, should not be judgmental and and should mind their own business because they themselves will never be confronted with a similar situation in their own lives.
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zz912
Guest
He already has said you are wrong. He left His Bride here until His return to speak in His Name. She has His authority, and has declared it murder. Why do you persist in ignoring His will on this matter?If the Christ says I am wrong, I will accept it. The question is will you?
Originally Posted by beleg
Catholicism’s logic for opposing abortion (besides saying that Jesus and the apostles were against it) goes like this:
- Humans are made in the image of God and therefore have dignity and deserve respect from all others.
- Life is a sacred gift from God which cannot be taken away.
- Murder is the premeditated killing of another human being, and is always wrong, because it disrespects human dignity and the gift of life.
- Scientifically speaking, a human is a member of the species Homo sapiens.
- Since fetuses created by the sexual reproduction of human beings are genetically Homo sapiens they are humans.
- Induced abortion (as opposed to a miscarriage) is the premeditated killing of a fetus.
- Therefore, the induced abortion of a human fetus is murder, and thus is immoral.
- True
- That is why we should let the Christ decide/mediate between the two views
3 I (along with millions of others) do not consider it murder
4 true
5 Every cell in my body in genetically human. Each cell is not a human
6 true
7 I (along with millions) disagree. A fetus is not a human
- He already has.
- Then you are wrong, and have manipulated yourself in a twisted pretzel to ignore the truth.
- A fetus is not a collection of cells. It exhibits all 7 charactestics of life. A single cell does not. So a fetus is more than just a collection of cells. It is life. And it is human (it’s certainly not a platypus).
- Then you are rejecting truth and holding to lies. Science and God both say a fetus is human.
It’s not her body.A woman should have complete control and autonomy over what happens to her body and how it is used. It is her decision and nobody else’s. It is her personal liberty and autonomy as a human being which is at stake. Nobody should be telling her what she should do with her body.
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zz912
Guest
What defines personhood, and give the supporting evidence for your claim. Also by whose authority do you declare this?You are right. The fetus is human just like every cell in my body, but every cell in my body is not a human being or a human ‘person’ and neither is the fetus.
Funny, it sounds like the Christ you are waiting on sounds exactly like you. Who are you worshipping?Actually, what I think the Christ will say is that abortion is not a good thing, it should be avoided if at all possible, but self-righteous people should learn to mind their own business, and let the woman make her own decision. Men, especially, should not be judgmental and and should mind their own business because they themselves will never be confronted with a similar situation in their own lives.
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Secant
Guest
Openmind77, the distinction I believe you missed is that a fetus is a distinct human organism, your cells are simply that, cells. Again, this is reputable science. What makes that organism not a person, as it is a distinct organism of a rational species?
Also, any woman who has not been raped made a choice. You don’t put your car in 1st gear, push on the gas and, once the car goes forward say, “Oh dear we need to fix this.” You instead say this is the logical result of my actions. Also, it has been shown in multiple studies that women who have been raped and bear the child rather than having an abortion heal faster and better. When you have a surgery such as appendicitis, the doctor (or at least every surgeon I’ve met) tells you to walk the next day no matter how much it hurts because you will, in the long run, be in less pain and heal faster. We simply ask the same, for a better and faster healing.
Jesus did not say, “mind your own business.” He instead tells us that when our brother sins, to ask him to repent. “If so you have gained your brother.” "As we have been called to act and be the vessels of God’s grace to others, to help them sin no more, we must stand against what the teaching body he endowed with all his authority taught as sin, as it is identical to what he teaches.
Also, any woman who has not been raped made a choice. You don’t put your car in 1st gear, push on the gas and, once the car goes forward say, “Oh dear we need to fix this.” You instead say this is the logical result of my actions. Also, it has been shown in multiple studies that women who have been raped and bear the child rather than having an abortion heal faster and better. When you have a surgery such as appendicitis, the doctor (or at least every surgeon I’ve met) tells you to walk the next day no matter how much it hurts because you will, in the long run, be in less pain and heal faster. We simply ask the same, for a better and faster healing.
Jesus did not say, “mind your own business.” He instead tells us that when our brother sins, to ask him to repent. “If so you have gained your brother.” "As we have been called to act and be the vessels of God’s grace to others, to help them sin no more, we must stand against what the teaching body he endowed with all his authority taught as sin, as it is identical to what he teaches.
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cena
Guest
The fetus has unique DNA that is not the mother’s it is not her choice.
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rcwitness
Guest
You are not thinking as a Christian, but as a man. Our bodies are no longer our own, but we are slaves in Jesus.You are right. The fetus is human just like every cell in my body, but every cell in my body is not a human being or a human ‘person’ and neither is the fetus.
Yea, it will be the great schism of those who are resurrected to eternal life and those who are resurrected to eternal death. Those who accept abortion as good, and who give consent to others who do are disowning the faith.I am glad you will accept whatever the Christ will say on the matter, but I suspect many will reject him if he does not agree with their own view - this will very likely cause a major schism.
You do well to acknowledge that Jesus would say this. But do not be content with what even demons know. Jesus IS condemnation to abortion and sin.Actually, what I think the Christ will say is that abortion is not a good thing
This is a very individualistic mentality. It stands on shakey ground and does not hold to the faith. It is not concerned with brotherly love and pastoral duty to lead people out of the slavery and death of sin, therefore it participates in it with them. “Whoever is not for me, is against me.” How do we know what is for Christ? You seem to believe the only way to know is His second coming. But this denies the Holy Spirit which He offers us through His first coming.but self-righteous people should learn to mind their own business, and let the woman make her own decision. Men, especially, should not be judgmental and and should mind their own business because they themselves will never be confronted with a similar situation in their own lives.
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openmind77
Guest
Another thing, I forgot to point out - restrictions on abortion are, as OP pointed out at the beginning of the thread, really a poor woman’s problem. Rich or well off women can always drive or fly to one of the west coast states like California and get a safe abortion. Poor people have no such choice if they are living in a southern state like Georgia or Texas. Even if abortion is banned nationwide, rich women can fly to China or India and get a safe, legal abortion. This fight against abortion, is really a fight against poor women.You are right. The fetus is human just like every cell in my body, but every cell in my body is not a human being or a human ‘person’ and neither is the fetus.
I am glad you will accept whatever the Christ will say on the matter, but I suspect many will reject him if he does not agree with their own view - this will very likely cause a major schism.
Actually, what I think the Christ will say is that abortion is not a good thing, it should be avoided if at all possible, but self-righteous people should learn to mind their own business, and let the woman make her own decision. Men, especially, should not be judgmental and and should mind their own business because they themselves will never be confronted with a similar situation in their own lives.
Also, this wishful thinking that the Holy Spirit somehow protects the Church against errors is quite risky. When the Christ returns and corrects many of these errors, there will be a great schism - there will be people who will follow the Christ and accept whatever he says and those who will reject him because he does not agree with them. This can happen quite soon.
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Secant
Guest
Abortion is not a safe procedure. There are two main ways to procure abortions, legally. The first is chemical. The chemical used has not been extensively tested, often causes major bleeding, occasionally to death, and greatly increases cancer risks. Is an extensive hospital stay (not required to be free unless for childbirth or immediate life-threatening care) or cancer treatment easily affordable for poor women? The other way is surgical. No surgeon will ever call surgery safe (my doctor treats a D&E - used legitimately in post pregnancy complications and identical to abortion as a surgery). If they did, you wouldn’t have to sign a mountain of paperwork for the understanding of risks involved. This is on top of the fact that having an abortion, especially in lower income women, leads to higher risks of depression, drug use and suicide. All hospitals must accept a woman in labor whether or not she can pay. Abortion, on the other hand, costs money, so a woman MUST be able to pay. Giving up a child for adoption is much less costly. Abortion attacks poor women far more than childbirth.
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