Abortions again, from a practical point of view

[Abrosz]

I don’t like abortions. The women don’t like abortions. You don’t like abortions. These are given. No one likes abortions. What kind of PRACTICAL solution can you offer to minimize / eliminate abortions?

Don’t even try to suggest that if one does not want children, one should not participate in sex. That is not “practical”. People like to have sex, because it is pleasurable. People do not want to have children indiscriminately. When an offspring is planned and as such the pregnancy is welcome, all is well. But most pregnancies are NOT welcome. How to minimize / eliminate the unwanted pregnancies?

The word “PRACTICAL” is of utmost importance. Concentrate on it.

 

[Abrosz]

The practical methods are common birth control methods.

I certainly agree. But do those common methods include artificial methods (condom and/or pill) and do they include encouraging “non-vaginal” intercourse, which is a 100% sure method to avoid pregnancy, and still keep the “unitive” aspect of sex?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

If by “practical” you mean “easy and pleasing”, then I guess you win.

But if you’re going for things like reverence for life, self-control and responsibility…well, that takes work.

But I guess we give up on anything that takes effort and just go killing the people who get in our way.

 

[Lea101]

What kind of PRACTICAL solution can you offer to minimize / eliminate abortions?

Practical? Hard to say. Many people can’t even use birth control correctly, and that’s why they’re having abortions.

My general (secular) advice for women is to vet men/be extremely selective. Why sleep with someone who doesn’t want to love and commit? One night stands are hardly satisfying for women anyway. If I can’t teach them the ‘Catholic’ way of abstaining, I would rather emphasise the need for only being with men who are capable enough to raise a baby with you. This removes a great deal of men in their dating pool, usually.

Women would be more willing to go through with a pregnancy if they have confidence that they have the resources and partner to do it with. So this will probably lead to better social programs in place for them, as well as workplace policies that don’t make moms feel like burdens in the office.

If you’re talking about tangible things, I would probably crack down on restricting porn use since I think it has a huge effect on dating and our personalities.

 

[Abrosz]

If by “practical” you mean “easy and pleasing”, then I guess you win.

Practical means that people are willing to practice it. Keep the wanted and happily awaited pregnancies, prevent the unwanted ones and thus eliminate the NEED for abortions. After all NO ONE prefers abortions. There is no one who would be PRO-ABORTION.

My general (secular) advice for women is to vet men/be extremely selective.

No argument from me. But why only for women?

Why sleep with someone who doesn’t want to love and commit?

Love and commitment have very little to do with each other.

This may sound frivolous, but “Übung macht den Meister”. Or practice makes perfect. It is not true that people instantly and instinctively know what is good for them, and what is good for their partner. No one would suggest that one can pick up a violin and a fiddle-stick and instantly become a master violinist.

 

[Irishmom2]

But most pregnancies are NOT welcome

That’s news to me.

 

[Lea101]

Practical means that people are willing to practice it. Keep the wanted and happily awaited pregnancies, prevent the unwanted ones and thus eliminate the NEED for abortions. After all NO ONE prefers abortions. There is no one who would be PRO-ABORTION.

This would be true 8 years ago maybe. Pro choicers are increasingly embracing the pro abortion label. They’re starting to realise ‘safe, legal and rare’ actually contradicts their view.

No argument from me. But why only for women

Because women are the ones deciding to abort or keep their children. Of course, if men don’t want to have their babies aborted, they should go out with pro life women instead of sleeping around with women they objectify and demean. I should have included that!

Love and commitment have very little to do with each other.

In Christianity, it does

It is not true that people instantly and instinctively know what is good for them,

Yes, people are just waking up. More women are demanding more from relationships after being burned.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Practical means that people are willing to practice it.

In other words, easy.

And if somebody gets in your way, kill them.

Bonus points if they’re too little to fight back.

 

[adamhovey1988]

children

Funny, since, according to abortion providers, failed contraceptives are the number one cause of abortion

 

[adamhovey1988]

It legitimately hurts knowing that some people would have had no problem murdering me before I was born (I am the product of failed contraceptives). She also doesn’t consider me an accident or a mistake. To give credit where credit is due, my mother, thankfully, would not have aborted me. The thought would never cross her mind. The logic “people are going to do it anyway” is just absurd. People are going to commit other crimes anyway (and yes, abortion is a crime against nature and the child), does that mean we shouldn’t stop those crimes?

 

[neophyte]

Don’t even try to suggest that if one does not want children, one should not participate in sex. That is not “practical”.

Sure it is. It just requires you to behave like an adult.

 

[heidi_storage]

Practical for whom? This issue isn’t an issue for devout Catholics. Devout Christians vary in whether they consider some or all types of contraceptives immoral.

For your average American, the answer is wide availability of long-acting reversible contraceptives, such as implants and IUDs. They are very effective at preventing conception (yes, they have a failure rate, but it’s small).

So–practical for whom?

 

[Abrosz]

Of course, if men don’t want to have their babies aborted, they should go out with pro life women instead of sleeping around with women they objectify and demean.

What is this “objectify”? The reality is that most people have no problem with practicing. And they don’t mind if their partner has been practicing, too. This is reality. And it is respect.

In Christianity, it does

But not everyone is Christian.

It legitimately hurts knowing that some people would have had no problem murdering me before I was born (I am the product of failed contraceptives).

Remember: murder is the illegal killing of a human person. As long as abortion is legal, it is not a “murder”.

In other words, easy.

What is wrong with it?

And if somebody gets in your way, kill them.

Oh, I was not aware that we are surrounded by bloodthirsty psychopaths who only care about themselves. Reality check, anyone?

Funny, since, according to abortion providers, failed contraceptives are the number one cause of abortion

So the solution: “make them better”. There can be no pregnancy if one practices non-vaginal intercourse. Or if one uses an implanted contraceptive. Or reversible vasectomy.

Sure it is. It just requires you to behave like an adult.

If that is how you wish to lead your life, no one should have problem with that. But an insult “behave like an adult” will not get you followers.

 

[Abrosz]

So–practical for whom?

Practical for the ones who wish to have sex, but do not wish to procreate - in THAT instance.

 

[heidi_storage]

Oh, I was not aware that we are surrounded by bloodthirsty psychopaths who only care about themselves. Reality check, anyone?

The reality is that millions of human beings have been denied their most basic right–the right not to be killed by another human’s deliberate action. The reality is that disposing of another person because you’re “not ready” or “not in a position” to have a child is, in fact, selfish.

 

[heidi_storage]

Then what I said. Research has shown that freely available LARC reduces the unwanted pregnancy rate.

 

[Abrosz]

The reality is that millions of human beings have been denied their most basic right–the right not to be killed by another human’s deliberate action. The reality is that disposing of another person because you’re “not ready” or “not in a position” to have a child is, in fact, selfish.

A zygote, embryo, fetus are potential human beings, which potential will become actual at the time of birth. But that is the subject of other threads. Here the central question is - how to minimize / eliminate abortions.

Then what I said. Research has shown that freely available LARC reduces the unwanted pregnancy rate.

No objection. Does the church strongly recommend its use? If it would be serious about reducing / eliminating abortions, it would be an excellent course of action.

 

[Lea101]

What is this “objectify”?

Pro life men who sleep around and call the women they sleep with sexist slurs because they wanted to abort their babies.

The reality is that most people have no problem with practicing. And they don’t mind if their partner has been practicing, too

What are you talking about?

But not everyone is Christian.

You’re in a Catholic forum. We happen to think if you love someone, you would commit and not use them for sex. Shocking!

A zygote, embryo, fetus are potential human beings, which potential will become actual at the time of birth.

And there it is. There’s the root of the problem here. You’re better off debating this point first.

Many pro choicers come on here to start conversations about anything but the basic morality of abortion. As a result, we get circular responses. There are steps to a conversation. We can’t talk about policies or practical things when there’s a huge gap that’s not addressed here.

It’s not for another thread. It’s relevant here. What’s the point of reducing abortions if you’re correct? If it’s not morally wrong? Don’t you see the problem here? The other person is talking about reducing murders and hence they would still be against it even if there are no practical solutions. You on the other hand, don’t see it that way. So you’ll end up talking past each other.

 

[heidi_storage]

“Potential” person? Nonsense.

No, Catholics do not promote LARC. The RC teaches that people should have sex only within marriage, never do acts that are not both unitive and procreative in nature, and welcome any children with love. In other words, they teach what they believe to be right. If everyone followed this teaching, no abortions would occur.

I should add that I am a Protestant. I think some kinds of contraceptives are morally permissible–those that depend chiefly upon preconception prevention–and would include hormonal, but not copper IUDs in that category.

That said, there is always a price to pay for fornication.This is a deeply practical as well as moral matter; fornication leads to sickness, unwanted pregnancy, broken bonds, decreased levels of marital satisfaction, and all kinds of emotional hurt. No amount of contraceptives or medicine can erase its toll.

Quite frankly, the most practical thing people could do is to stay abstinent until marriage and then go at it with their spouse.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Don’t even try to suggest that if one does not want children, one should not participate in sex. That is not “practical”. People like to have sex, because it is pleasurable.

Well stealing is pleasurable. To not steal is not to be practical. In all honesty sometimes being too practical also means to be contrary to logic. Life is hard, world is tough and we sacrifice something on daily (even hourly) basis. It gives you much more pleasure to just do drugs and it doesn’t risk life of others, yet they aren’t considered practical and sex while you don’t want baby is? I will try to stick to your premise but it isn’t very practical

But most pregnancies are NOT welcome. How to minimize / eliminate the unwanted pregnancies?

Make sex a value other than pleasure. Relationship needs to be behind it. Support rights and duties of both parents to take care of the child. If it was permanent decision for woman to have a child (since abortion would be gone), then it is for a man also. We Catholics call such commitment from both partners which is permanent “marriage”. Connect sex with this commitment and stop risking life of people for pleasure because that is certainly not “practical”.

Moment you reduce sex to pleasure and make it sort of transaction, it all falls apart and even marriage itself gets affected which also affects abortions and so on…