Abortions again, from a practical point of view

[Abrosz]

repeating what I already pointed out to you as being disrespectful.

To the best of my knowledge, disagreement is not disrespectful.

There is solution but it implies people can’t have everything they want and stay moral.

There is no commonly accepted morality. It looks like that between choosing between two 'immoral" options - abortion or some kind of unallowed prevention - you say that 'immoral prevention" must be avoided at all costs, even if it will lead to abortion.

Because abortion of some kind has been with us since the dawn of time, and as long as there will be unwanted pregnancies, it WILL stay. Between a rock and a hard place, eh?

From a practical perspective the way the world is now…I would say making abortion illegal would help.

Are you aware that this was the policy in the communist Romania under Ceausescu? No kidding!

And why do you talk about terminating a pregnancy when the topic is PREVENTING an unwanted pregnancy?

Catholicism is discarded by an overwhelming percentage of the people. Logic is discarded by an overwhelming percentage of the people. Shall I discard my faith and logic in order to pander to them? No, I won’t.

And no one wishes to force you. How would this lead to minimize or eliminate abortions is something I don’t understand.

 

[Servant31]

Blockquote

Are you aware that this was the policy in the communist Romania under Ceausescu? No kidding!

And why do you talk about terminating a pregnancy when the topic is PREVENTING an unwanted pregnancy?

Well so one communist dictator got one thing right? I’m not understanding the point here?

I’m not talking about terminating pregnancy, I’m talking about not terminating pregnancy. I was responding to you when you said it’s impractical to not have sex outside of certain confines, then state that pregnancies are unwanted. Pregnancy is a possible result of sexual intercourse.i
It’s just the way biology works.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

you say that 'immoral prevention" must be avoided at all costs, even if it will lead to abortion.

There is no avoiding of immoral prevention which necessarily leads to abortion. There is always option to keep the baby after all.

There is no commonly accepted morality.

There is commonly accepted morality that killing someone is a bad thing. If there is a definition by which we discard unborn as people but keep all other people law protects, then I would like to hear it. But other than saying vaginal canal magically confers personhood (which would say that even 10 month old unborn can be aborted if it wasn’t born yet), there is no such available distinction. Where do we draw the line between potential and real person? I know this isn’t necessarily point of this topic but it necessarily boils down to this.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Abrosz:

Don’t even try to suggest that if one does not want children, one should not participate in sex. That is not “practical”.

Sure it is. It just requires you to behave like an adult.

A lot of us have very little difficulty living without sex. Therefore, going without sex is quite practical for many people. It is also a 100 percent foolproof method. Birth control is not.

 

[neophyte]

What is “juvenile” … about realizing that sex is… NOT even primarily for procreation?

It’s a denial of reality. That’s as juvenile as it gets.

The purpose of sex is reproduction. It’s pleasurable so that we’ll want to do it, but it’s purpose is not to be pleasurable. Contracepted sex is a form of bulemia.

 

[Abrosz]

Well so one communist dictator got one thing right?

Wow! Just wow!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There is commonly accepted morality that killing someone is a bad thing. If there is a definition by which we discard unborn as people but keep all other people law protects, then I would like to hear it.

This is essentially how we ended up with abortion laws: define the baby in utero as something other than a person in order to legally kill it.

 

[Abrosz]

A lot of us have very little difficulty living without sex. Therefore, going without sex is quite practical for many people. It is also a 100 percent foolproof method. Birth control is not.

No one should argue with you. I certainly will not. It is your choice.

 

[stpurl]

Is there ever a time when a person is permitted to make an evil choice’ though? As human beings created by Almighty God we are formed for good. While we have the free will to turn away from the good, does it follow that we have a RIGHT to choose evil?

And is evil something that is ‘relative’ I.e not evil for you but evil for me? If so, ‘good’ would be relative as well (evil being ‘spoiled good’) and we would have no moral standards except what was imposed by the stronger on the weak, or by a ‘majority’ over the minority, and no one could ever say that even that ‘imposition’ itself was wrong.

 

[Abrosz]

The purpose of sex is reproduction.

Nope. It is ONE of the possible purposes.

Contracepted sex is a form of bulemia.

Nope. Abortion would be bulimia. Contraception would be selective eating.

 

[Servant31]

My friend I’m not following your point? Your wowing… You didn’t quote the rest of the point so…? Even people who are crazy can get things right.

 

[blackforest]

No one likes abortions.

Human rights violations go beyond “I-don’t-like.” This is a matter of what is ethically acceptable, not personal preference. I don’t like ranch dressing. That’s not the same view I hold on child labor or (dis)honor killings of women.

The word “PRACTICAL” is of utmost importance. Concentrate on it.

Please familiarize yourself with Feminists for Life and similar organizations. Pro-lifers have actually been working at this for quite awhile.

 

[blackforest]

The practical methods are common birth control methods.

Planned Parenthood data consistently shows that around half of all abortions are performed on women who were using contraception at the time of conception. Clearly we need to think outside of that box when it comes to abortion prevention.

 

[Lea101]

but disagree that the OP needs to argue about potential vs actual human beings.

You may so, but the rest of your post does just that! My point is that we need to build up conversations about abortions or else we’ll not get anywhere.

Reality

I feel like I’m having a convo with trump what do you mean practicing?

Why do you say “use them for sex”?

You are using them for sex, if you’re not committed to them. It sounds harsh but most people who acknowledge the truth (one night stands, friends with benefits)

Abstinence is impractical. If you wish to practice it, go ahead. Just don’t think that other people will follow. If one wishes to achieve a favorable result, sometimes a compromise is in order.

You’re saying this to a person who believes this is murder, that’s my point.

Imagine we’re talking about genocide. And we’re saying hey, maybe let’s love each other. Maybe be more understanding of each other. And someone says it’s not practical. Of course it isn’t! It doesn’t mean it’s useless!

There would be no room to compromise if what you’re talking about goes against that virtue (e.g. Maybe we don’t kill them, but because we hate them, let’s assault them. It will reduce murders)

Likewise, you’re talking to a group of people who are against artificial contraception because it is related to why they’re against abortion (not being open to life).

It would be a better use of your time if you start a thread debating the use of contraception first since I feel that’s the point you’re trying to ‘make us realise’.

One practical thing I can think of, is to provide women with ultrasounds/let them hear the heartbeat and teach them about fetal development, and have a waiting period before the procedure. You’d be surprised at how little these women know. That could reduce some abortions. This is something everyone should agree on regardless of their view on abortion

 

[Abrosz]

You are using them for sex, if you’re not committed to them. It sounds harsh but most people who acknowledge the truth (one night stands, friends with benefits)

And while I am “using” them, they also 'use" me. As long as we agree, there is no problem.

You’re saying this to a person who believes this is murder, that’s my point.

And you still say that ABC is worse. I don’t understand.

Likewise, you’re talking to a group of people who are against artificial contraception because it is related to why they’re against abortion (not being open to life).

And still it could prevent abortions. Which one is more important?

 

[Elf01]

There is no one who would be PRO-ABORTION.

Anybody who supports legal abortion is pro abortion. I would say the same for anybody who supported legal slavery even if they said all the right things.

That goes doubly when they make multiple threads on a Catholic forum supporting it.

In terms of encouraging women not to abort I would support (at least in principle) free health care during pregnancy and for minors, research into conditions that make pregnancy dangerous for a woman - hopefully resulting in death or health complications from pregnancy no longer being a thing, info on (and ideally exposure to people with) genetic abnormalities, better social supports, efforts to remove the stigma around placing a baby for adoption and encouraging couples to adopt, but they won’t have a major impact. The real reason women abort, as pointed out by @Freddy, is that they don’t see the child as human. Something needs to be done to change that, but I don’t have any ideas.

I also 100% support making abortion illegal and not having sex if you don’t want to make a baby.

 

[Abrosz]

This is a matter of what is ethically acceptable, not personal preference.

In which ethical system? There are quite a few.

 

[Abrosz]

Anybody who supports legal abortion is pro abortion.

Nonsense.

I also 100% support making abortion illegal and not having sex if you don’t want to make a baby.

Good luck propagating that idea.

 

[Autumnfa]

Natural family planning has been around since the beginning it seems. Less pregnancy’s and if it’s meant to be then it will be. I just saw a video today after mass and it said having children can make you lose your mind but makes you find yourself. They talked about the value of children and even though it may be unwanted or planned there’s a reason for it. I had a friend in middles school who was already a sex addict well graduated highschool, went to college, eventually got pregnant with twins. She wasn’t the fondest when it came to children but she had a lot of hurt resentment and I’m sure for a fact she didn’t want them… My mom made a comment why did God bless her with twins?! I replied because she needs to be shown love and how to love properly and love herself unconditionally. These children already come with a non biased view of you. They see how beautiful you genuinely are they see your heart. As time goes children get more complicated but we continue to change in life anyways so as your child grows you grow as well and you need to relearn who you are and your child. Natural family planning is amazing I also had helped with this place called saint gabriel project. Free everything also helped paid for rent for parents who couldn’t meet ends right. You could walk in take toys. clothes, etc. free diapers potty seats everything. There’s help and resources. You just have to reach out and talk. We have to always be open to life and not just our own but another life, it may be a partner, pet, family, or just a baby on the way. Children bring love we have to learn to put value into life and children once again and genuinely invest in them not as a project but as people.

 

[Autumnfa]

Also another cool thing about natural family planning is that it teaches you about your body and how to listen to know when something is wrong and what you may be allergic to if you didn’t know what different foods you may crave. It teaches when and when not to have sex and it honestly helped me learn about my body a lot more even though I’m irregular.