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devoutchristian
Guest
You shouldn’t claim to know things that you don’t.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Nonsense. I have never made that claim. It is by way of comforting as a belief of Christian faith. I can only say what that faith is but I cannot know what happen to the person after life as that is the dominion of God only. But we can encourage people by what our faith tells us. That have been done all the ages and I am only doing that in my ministry. I must not be so stupid as to know what happen to the destiny of a person because that is between God and himself but yet I know what is the promise of Christ and I can only say that much. What happen to a person, only that person knows what he has done and that is between God and him.
If we can say that to a seemingly holy people like the priests or Popes, surely we can, to ordinary lay Christians because the promise of salvation of God is the same to all of them.
Probably you are not in the ministry of giving comfort to the dying and the bereaved family. Or if you do, you can teach me of how to do it better, I really do not mind.
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Reuben_J
Guest
We just did a series of memorial prayer for a member of the worship team who passed away due to cancer about half a year ago. She had been suffering from the disease for about half a year prior to that. When the cancer was discovered it was in the terminal stage with secondaries. She underwent chemotherapy but the prognosis was not good.
We knew her as we have been together and from what we saw, she was really a woman of God, devoting her life to her family, in prayer and faithful in service. Even when she was dying, she still served despite being very frail until she was bed ridden. She was a woman of prayer and all of us prayed together with her. Everyone who knew her said that she was an example of what it is to be a good wife and a good Christian.
When she died, we continued to pray with the family, saying the rosary and breaking the word of God in their house at the request of the husband and members of her family. It was during that moment we had the opportunity to comfort them in a more tangible way. What is written in the post here, being the internet can never be the same as what was explained in a five to seven minutes of talk in preaching the word. Of course we say ultimately we offered her soul to the mercy of God. And true enough, death is the end of our faith journey, regardless of what that journey is.
The basic message is about resurrection, what Jesus said to Martha – even though he died he will live because he believed. And there are more to support that even in the epistles. So it is not trying to be smart saying things simply for the sake of saying it and trying to look clever. No, it is not. It is more than that and it is after much explanation and knowledge of the Bible and of Christian faith.
We knew her as we have been together and from what we saw, she was really a woman of God, devoting her life to her family, in prayer and faithful in service. Even when she was dying, she still served despite being very frail until she was bed ridden. She was a woman of prayer and all of us prayed together with her. Everyone who knew her said that she was an example of what it is to be a good wife and a good Christian.
When she died, we continued to pray with the family, saying the rosary and breaking the word of God in their house at the request of the husband and members of her family. It was during that moment we had the opportunity to comfort them in a more tangible way. What is written in the post here, being the internet can never be the same as what was explained in a five to seven minutes of talk in preaching the word. Of course we say ultimately we offered her soul to the mercy of God. And true enough, death is the end of our faith journey, regardless of what that journey is.
The basic message is about resurrection, what Jesus said to Martha – even though he died he will live because he believed. And there are more to support that even in the epistles. So it is not trying to be smart saying things simply for the sake of saying it and trying to look clever. No, it is not. It is more than that and it is after much explanation and knowledge of the Bible and of Christian faith.
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Reuben_J
Guest
The state of grace. For Catholics this attainable and easily achievable, thanks initially to the grace of Baptism. By making good confession in the Sacrament of Reconciliation in sincere repentance and doing the penance prescribed, one is in the state of grace. That state is enhanced, for lack of better word, when we receive Holy Communion in the Sacrament of the Eucharist where Jesus promised us that only when we eat his flesh and drink his blood we will have life in us for his flesh is real food and his blood is real drink. By doing all these we have reasonable confidence that we can come to the Father and be justified. Well, at least that is what our faith tells us and we have no reason not to actually believe it. It is certainly not merely a slogan or merely to hear something nice (because it is actually nice to know that) but the fundamental of our faith.
In my ministry we do visit the sick in the hospitals and in their homes. Some of these are dying. We have a priest as part of the team so that we can arrange for patients for Confession and Communion at the hospitals or their homes. To be brief, there were many instances where through prayers and ministries if they were not healed physically, they seemed to accept death and prepared for it. Why that was so, it was certainly out of their belief that there is even better reward awaiting them.
For us to achieve this is of course through our faith and in life, that is really a journey. Perhaps a journey of seeking, trying to change and obedience to the will of God, to correct mistakes in life when we fall and to receive the saving grace of God. And that never end until we meet the Father face to face in the next life. For Christians we have reasonable confident when that time comes. That is why it is repeated in the mass every time, ‘… as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior Jesus Christ’ which can only happen in the next life or by then we will be in the next life.
Thus we can say as believers that our journey is ended in death when we meet the Father. The final outcome belongs to the Father but we know as much as we are promised as much.
God bless.
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devoutchristian
Guest
My point was that you don’t know that any specific person is in Heaven, so saying that they are is incorrect.
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Reuben_J
Guest
The Church is saying that though (for the saints).
Nobody is saying that with certainty but it is enough for us to encourage a person with regards to our faith belief. Unless we are sure a person is in hell. The Church teaching is we can never be sure whether a person is in hell, no matter how sinful he is. And why do many Christians and saints welcome death? Death is a journey ended and we will meet the Father, a place we long for and be at his mercy and forgiveness. This should be Christian expectation and belief, perhaps even a minimal one. A person in purgatory is considered saved because he will eventually be in heaven. There is thread here about whether saints also are in purgatory on their way to heaven.
I mentioned about the state of grace, a very Catholic belief. Do you believe in that? Would not a Christian who is sick or dying not able to prepare himself to at least to reach that state as all the mechanism (Sacraments, priest) are available for him to do it? Would you not have hope as a Christian to sufficiently be able to encourage your fellow Christians about the promises of Christ?
I put this to you:
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
We cannot be too legalistic when we comfort and encourage. But we do not lie either. To speak about our faith belief expectation for a reasonably practicing Catholic who is in a state of grace, well, we cannot be too far wrong. Otherwise, I don’t know, we can throw all those books and Sacraments away.
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Reuben_J
Guest
You haven’t told me how I can do it better. I am serious because they are not the last one that we were ministering to, there will be more. Any help to improve will be very much appreciated. And I can suggest that to our priest too - an elderly priest actually but who still can go around blessing, performing funeral services and saying Requiem Mass. That would be great for all of us.
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devoutchristian
Guest
Canonizations occur after the memorial service is over.
Exactly.
You don’t know who is in a state of grace.
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Reuben_J
Guest
I think you are trolling that do not address the context of why I make those statement. You keep attacking with petty legalism and that is of no use for this discussion.
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awsmith1861
Guest
So true, ya’ll that we don’t know about anyone’s state of grace.
BUT… God is not an idiot either. Its possible with some individuals who have lived exemplary lives to put my mind at ease about whether they went to Heaven or the other place.
I have never been a huge believer in black and white theology.
Technically “none can see the kingdom of Heaven unless they are baptised”. So… those little babies that my wife and I never know about because of some self aborting genetic defect will just go to Hell to be tormented because they never got past the blastula or morula stage?
I don’t think so.
Same thing for folks who lived a saintly life. Unless they were secretly evil, I don’t see any harm in family acknowledging that their loved ones went on to heaven or purgatory and not to hell.
BUT… God is not an idiot either. Its possible with some individuals who have lived exemplary lives to put my mind at ease about whether they went to Heaven or the other place.
I have never been a huge believer in black and white theology.
Technically “none can see the kingdom of Heaven unless they are baptised”. So… those little babies that my wife and I never know about because of some self aborting genetic defect will just go to Hell to be tormented because they never got past the blastula or morula stage?
I don’t think so.
Same thing for folks who lived a saintly life. Unless they were secretly evil, I don’t see any harm in family acknowledging that their loved ones went on to heaven or purgatory and not to hell.
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Reuben_J
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Chantal25
Guest
One prayer:
The rosary / chaplet of Divine Mercy
Also ask for the intervention of St-Benedict to protect from any influence which would prohibit him to convert.
My prayers are with him!
The rosary / chaplet of Divine Mercy
Also ask for the intervention of St-Benedict to protect from any influence which would prohibit him to convert.
My prayers are with him!
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awsmith1861
Guest
An update folks. I actually had the opportunity with my father-in-law to discuss his experience in as much depth as he could manage. The surgery he had cleared a big blockage in one of the carotid arteries and as a result, his mental faculties were muuuuuch better than they were before. His wife and if she dies, then my wife, are still his legal guardians by his own wishes but his brain is so much better now.
Anyway, he and I had a chat and both acknowledged the scary nature of making that transition and that he has turned away from sin for decades. I strongly suspect it did him some good to hear that it was OK to be frightened about dying.
So, surgery was a huge success, he should be OK for another 5-7 years now. Not too bad at 72!
It was an absolutely magical weekend to spend chatting with him. We had a crawfish boil to celebrate and a bunch of his family came over and I will NEVER forget the smile on his face from ear to ear about the event and the family together and having fun at his home. Everyone helped cook, clean, and take care of the kids… we all laughed til our sides hurt talking and listening to stories. I wish I could have gotten a picture of his face at the end of the night. He was sitting on the couch, in pajamas, and said, “Boy, I tell you what, that was just the best time I have had in years and years. Thank you, boy, for putting that crawfish boil together!” (yes, even at 40 in the south a 70something year old is allowed to call you ‘boy’ – and its a compliment when done in my book… oh, and he still likes to hear yes, sir from even me at 40… I love our Southern traditions)
Thank ya’ll, everyone, for the prayers when you saw this thread. Even if it was just a brief one.
Anyway, he and I had a chat and both acknowledged the scary nature of making that transition and that he has turned away from sin for decades. I strongly suspect it did him some good to hear that it was OK to be frightened about dying.
So, surgery was a huge success, he should be OK for another 5-7 years now. Not too bad at 72!
It was an absolutely magical weekend to spend chatting with him. We had a crawfish boil to celebrate and a bunch of his family came over and I will NEVER forget the smile on his face from ear to ear about the event and the family together and having fun at his home. Everyone helped cook, clean, and take care of the kids… we all laughed til our sides hurt talking and listening to stories. I wish I could have gotten a picture of his face at the end of the night. He was sitting on the couch, in pajamas, and said, “Boy, I tell you what, that was just the best time I have had in years and years. Thank you, boy, for putting that crawfish boil together!” (yes, even at 40 in the south a 70something year old is allowed to call you ‘boy’ – and its a compliment when done in my book… oh, and he still likes to hear yes, sir from even me at 40… I love our Southern traditions)
Thank ya’ll, everyone, for the prayers when you saw this thread. Even if it was just a brief one.
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JRKH
Guest
Thanks for the update…Great to hear everything went well…
Peace
James
Peace
James
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outfctrl
Guest
My Mom passed away about 6 years ago. To this day something about her death really bothers me. My Sister has been taking care of her for many years. Her liver went bad and my Brother and i were called to come see her. We were told she only had a few days left at the most.
When I got there, she was pretty incoherent and barely recognized us. We held her hand.
I got up and turned to my Sister and asked if she was going to get a priest to give her her last rites.
She said she didnt want to scare her.
She passed away the next day with no Priest. My Mother was a very fervent Catholic. To the day she died, she still wouldnt eat meat on a Friday and went to Mass like 2-3 times a week her whole life. We all went to private Catholic schools.
Anyways, Should I still regret that a Priest never came and gave her the Last Rites or am I just making a big deal out of nothing?
Thanks all
When I got there, she was pretty incoherent and barely recognized us. We held her hand.
I got up and turned to my Sister and asked if she was going to get a priest to give her her last rites.
She said she didnt want to scare her.
She passed away the next day with no Priest. My Mother was a very fervent Catholic. To the day she died, she still wouldnt eat meat on a Friday and went to Mass like 2-3 times a week her whole life. We all went to private Catholic schools.
Anyways, Should I still regret that a Priest never came and gave her the Last Rites or am I just making a big deal out of nothing?
Thanks all
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JRKH
Guest
First, I would suggest that you talk to your priest about this. His insight would likely be much better than ours.
That said, I think that there can be little doubt that your mom died in a state grace - that her suffering at the end removed much need for purgation and that in all likelihood she is not present in heaven. Naturally - I cannot know this but your description gives me the confidence to say it.
Beyond this, your post should be a notice to others…do not wait until the last minute…do not worry about “scaring” a loved one. If you have a loved one who is seriously ill, call the priest to administer the sacrament of the sick. It will be good for everyone.
Peace
James
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fred_conty
Guest
I’m sorry to hear about your mother.
It was your sister’s decision, not yours.
If anything, the annointing by the priest has the effect of calming, not scaring.
Sometimes people get well. It gives them peace, and the mind does have a lot to do with the health of the body.
The best thing now to do would be to have Masses offered in her name. And if possible, attend them offering your communions and masses for her. If you can’t attend those masses, then attend other masses offering your communions and masses for her.
It is better to do it as soon as possible.
We really cannot be sure anyone is in heaven apart from the church’s cannonization.
We have all done things we will need to make up for.
It is a mistake to think they don’t need prayers because they appeared good.
I will say prayers for her too.
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awsmith1861
Guest
I’ve made it abundantly clear that I want last rites… If I get hospital sick, it’ll happen.
My father died under circumstances similar to Teri Schivo and he received last rites a few days before his death.
As far as missing the last rites, I suspect your mother was fine. I also understand the regret about not getting a priest to come in.
Death is a frightening, difficult process for everyone involved. Don’t fret over it, pray some rosaries for her, and then don’t be afraid to petition her for prayers.
I have a few dead relatives who are aces in the hole for family prayers and well… they really really have the ear of our Lord because they never fail when I am asking for help with the family.
My father died under circumstances similar to Teri Schivo and he received last rites a few days before his death.
As far as missing the last rites, I suspect your mother was fine. I also understand the regret about not getting a priest to come in.
Death is a frightening, difficult process for everyone involved. Don’t fret over it, pray some rosaries for her, and then don’t be afraid to petition her for prayers.
I have a few dead relatives who are aces in the hole for family prayers and well… they really really have the ear of our Lord because they never fail when I am asking for help with the family.
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Grace78
Guest
I’m not afraid of dying, but I think that might also be because I’m still (relatively) young and it’s very ‘near’ for me… I think we should support people who are afraid of it though, emphasizing how Jesus loves and forgives us and not how we are condemned to hellfire. Personally I think that’s just awful
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Aussieman88
Guest
If he doesn’t believe in the trinity, it doesn’t matter. You should assure him he’s going to be ok so long as he has accepted Jesus to be his lord and saviour. Jesus does the Judging. If he’s repented of his sin then the slate is wiped clean. Jesus is the way to salvation.
The fire and brimstone sermons were all the rage for many a year but the scriptures teaching the wrath of God, the anger of God occur what about 20 times in the bible and each of those is contrary to how God describes himself hundreds of times in every other part of the bible. and it says over and over that God is a good God and never changes. Its obviously a mistake by the translators. The word for God used in each case co equally means God the father OR the feinted fallen one (satan). This is why when they call satan the god of this world they use the small g. The capital G is used for God the father. The translators got it wrong. used the wrong g on each angry god occasion and the devils been playing on it for years. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES - God even loves satan.
In the last days knowledge will be increased. Eyes are starting to become open to what I’ve just said. The new Pope will push evangelisation of the western countries and the Catholic Church in the west will begin to see signs and wonders following the teaching of the word as its described in the bible. Just as it is happening in 3rd world countries.
The fire and brimstone sermons were all the rage for many a year but the scriptures teaching the wrath of God, the anger of God occur what about 20 times in the bible and each of those is contrary to how God describes himself hundreds of times in every other part of the bible. and it says over and over that God is a good God and never changes. Its obviously a mistake by the translators. The word for God used in each case co equally means God the father OR the feinted fallen one (satan). This is why when they call satan the god of this world they use the small g. The capital G is used for God the father. The translators got it wrong. used the wrong g on each angry god occasion and the devils been playing on it for years. LOVE YOUR ENEMIES - God even loves satan.
In the last days knowledge will be increased. Eyes are starting to become open to what I’ve just said. The new Pope will push evangelisation of the western countries and the Catholic Church in the west will begin to see signs and wonders following the teaching of the word as its described in the bible. Just as it is happening in 3rd world countries.
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