About Phil. 2:5-8

[julygabz_18]

hi hope can u answer my question…

The word ‘God’ was replaced by the correct word 'who’in the new bible translations when they disccovered that the former was an alteration of the Greek manuscript(ref. John James Wetstein (1693-1754)).

Respected Textual critic and Greek scholar Bruce Metzger testifies on this in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament:

“No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century . . . supports qeoV; all ancient versions presuppose ÔV or ? and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading qeoV.”

Those are just some proof from respected and well-known bible scholars and experts, and was more proven with the new translations nowadays which they frankly include in their main page or footnote that the correct translation for 1 Tim 3:16 was “He who or He was made flesh.” and not “God was made flesh”.
(see the NRSV, RSV, ASV, NASB, NIV, NWT, BBE, Moffet, Rotherham, etc…)

Henceforth almost all new biblical translations(trinitarians included) has in their main or in their footnotes the correct phrase “WHO was manifested in the flesh” instead.

**See comments from the **
(RNKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of reverence: who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Diaglott) A pillar and basis of the truth and confessedly great is the of the piety secret. Who was manifested in flesh, was justified in spirit, was seen by messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed among a world, was taken up in glory.

Finally this quote out of the American Standard Version:
“The word God, in place of He who, rest on no sufficient ancient evidence. Some ancient authorities read which.”

this means that Jesus is not GOD???

july^_^

 

[graceandglory]

I can’t find your question in your post.
Is it at the end where you say

this means that Jesus is not GOD???

If so, then, no, it doesn’t mean that Jesus is not God.
This Scripture shows that God became man in Christ.

It just means that the word “who” has been translated “God” in some versions. That it has always been interpreted to mean “God” in that instance. That’s why we have the teachings of the Church to help us with the difficult interpretations.

It would be so nice if you could cut and paste the scripture in your next post. It would be even cooler if you could post it in a recognizable version of Scripture too.

 

[thistle]

hi hope can u answer my question…

The word ‘God’ was replaced by the correct word 'who’in the new bible translations when they disccovered that the former was an alteration of the Greek manuscript(ref. John James Wetstein (1693-1754)).

Respected Textual critic and Greek scholar Bruce Metzger testifies on this in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament:

“No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century . . . supports qeoV; all ancient versions presuppose ÔV or ? and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading qeoV.”

Those are just some proof from respected and well-known bible scholars and experts, and was more proven with the new translations nowadays which they frankly include in their main page or footnote that the correct translation for 1 Tim 3:16 was “He who or He was made flesh.” and not “God was made flesh”.
(see the NRSV, RSV, ASV, NASB, NIV, NWT, BBE, Moffet, Rotherham, etc…)

Henceforth almost all new biblical translations(trinitarians included) has in their main or in their footnotes the correct phrase “WHO was manifested in the flesh” instead.

**See comments from the **
(RNKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of reverence: who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Diaglott) A pillar and basis of the truth and confessedly great is the of the piety secret. Who was manifested in flesh, was justified in spirit, was seen by messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed among a world, was taken up in glory.

Finally this quote out of the American Standard Version:
“The word God, in place of He who, rest on no sufficient ancient evidence. Some ancient authorities read which.”

this means that Jesus is not GOD???

july^_^

I would be surprised if many people comment in your thread. Your post is incomprehensible and impossible to follow.
I would suggest you tell us plainly what you want to say and as the only other poster has said you should copy and paste the exact piece of scripture you think is wrongly translated, if that’s what you are saying.
Also I too don’t know if you have a question or not.

 

[graceandglory]

Your post is incomprehensible and impossible to follow…

Thanks, thistle. I have a degree in linguistics, and I was confused.
I was up for the challenge, however!

 

[jcrichton]

hi hope can u answer my question…

The word ‘God’ was replaced by the correct word 'who’in the new bible translations when they disccovered that the former was an alteration of the Greek manuscript(ref. John James Wetstein (1693-1754)).

Respected Textual critic and Greek scholar Bruce Metzger testifies on this in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament:

“No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century . . . supports qeoV; all ancient versions presuppose ÔV or ? and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading qeoV.”

Those are just some proof from respected and well-known bible scholars and experts, and was more proven with the new translations nowadays which they frankly include in their main page or footnote that the correct translation for 1 Tim 3:16 was “He who or He was made flesh.” and not “God was made flesh”.
(see the NRSV, RSV, ASV, NASB, NIV, NWT, BBE, Moffet, Rotherham, etc…)

Henceforth almost all new biblical translations(trinitarians included) has in their main or in their footnotes the correct phrase “WHO was manifested in the flesh” instead.

**See comments from the **
(RNKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of reverence: who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Diaglott) A pillar and basis of the truth and confessedly great is the of the piety secret. Who was manifested in flesh, was justified in spirit, was seen by messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed among a world, was taken up in glory.

Finally this quote out of the American Standard Version:
“The word God, in place of He who, rest on no sufficient ancient evidence. Some ancient authorities read which.”

this means that Jesus is not GOD???

july^_^Hi, july!

If all of the Bible was comprised of only those particular passages there would still be the following problem:

How can man manifested in the flesh be of great significance?

But the Holy Scriptures are comprised or many more passages:

“The Word was with God and the Word was God.”

“My Lord and my God.”

“…for I did not receive the Gospel from any man…”

“I and the Father are One.”

“The Father is in Me and I am in the Father.”

Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith as precious as our own, given through the saving justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ. (1 St. Peter 1:1)

There are way many more passages that state that Jesus is God or that transfer Yahweh God’s Authority, Power, and Omnipotence to Yeshua, the Immanuel!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Philippians 2:6 (Contemporary English Version)

Christ was truly God.

But he did not try to remain equal with God.

Philippians 2:6 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God

as something to be used for His own advantage

Ah, whats the problem?

 

[jcrichton]

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Philippians 2:6 (Contemporary English Version)

Christ was truly God.

But he did not try to remain equal with God.

Philippians 2:6 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God

as something to be used for His own advantage

**
Ah, whats the problem?**

Hi, Daniel Marsh!

:crying: :crying: :crying:

…your last statement was totally unexpected… you had me in tears!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[kepha1]

Greek hair splitting over scrupulous grammar rules that the Greeks didn’t care about anyway, over one NT word,
doesn’t change the truth.

What alarms me is the growing number of evangelicals who are duped by Gnostic elements that is in their denial of the Real Presence, and sacramentalism in general. Consequently they diminish the Incarnation and sometimes end up denying that too. They depend too much on lexicons, pagan Greek grammar, concordances, commentaries and human scholarship. It’s a form of Pelagianism: receiving divine revelation by human effort. They think the Holy Spirit guides the individual but not the Church that God used to produce the Bible.

 

[puzzleannie]

unless you are a Greek scholar I suggest that you and I resist commenting on this thread. Unless you are a scholar of English grammar I suggest you give up on deciphering OP.

 

[po18guy]

Greek hair splitting over scrupulous grammar rules that the Greeks didn’t care about anyway, over one NT word,
doesn’t change the truth.

What alarms me is the growing number of evangelicals who are duped by Gnostic elements that is in their denial of the Real Presence, and sacramentalism in general. Consequently they diminish the Incarnation and sometimes end up denying that too. They depend too much on lexicons, pagan Greek grammar, concordances, commentaries and human scholarship. It’s a form of Pelagianism: receiving divine revelation by human effort. They think the Holy Spirit guides the individual but not the Church that God used to produce the Bible.

“Some” Evangelicals teach that baptism is not necessary. “Some” believe that the “water and the spirit” in John 3:5 means the amniotic fluid in the womb!?! Well, if that is the normative means of human birth, and is equivalent to baptism, why on earth would Christ even mention being “born from above” or “born again”? He would not even have had that conversation with Nicodemus, since all humans were so born. The seven-headed monster of private interpretation rears its ugly head(s) yet again!

 

[Pete_Holter]

hi hope can u answer my question…

The word ‘God’ was replaced by the correct word 'who’in the new bible translations when they disccovered that the former was an alteration of the Greek manuscript(ref. John James Wetstein (1693-1754)).

Respected Textual critic and Greek scholar Bruce Metzger testifies on this in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament:

“No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century . . . supports qeoV; all ancient versions presuppose ÔV or ? and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading qeoV.”

Those are just some proof from respected and well-known bible scholars and experts, and was more proven with the new translations nowadays which they frankly include in their main page or footnote that the correct translation for 1 Tim 3:16 was “He who or He was made flesh.” and not “God was made flesh”.
(see the NRSV, RSV, ASV, NASB, NIV, NWT, BBE, Moffet, Rotherham, etc…)

Henceforth almost all new biblical translations(trinitarians included) has in their main or in their footnotes the correct phrase “WHO was manifested in the flesh” instead.

**See comments from the **
(RNKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of reverence: who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Diaglott) A pillar and basis of the truth and confessedly great is the of the piety secret. Who was manifested in flesh, was justified in spirit, was seen by messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed among a world, was taken up in glory.

Finally this quote out of the American Standard Version:
“The word God, in place of He who, rest on no sufficient ancient evidence. Some ancient authorities read which.”

this means that Jesus is not GOD???

july^_^

Greetings julygabz_18!

I’m not sure why this post is called “Re: about Phil. 2:5-8”. The post only mentions 1 Tim. 3:16.

The New Vulgate chooses “Who” and not “God” as the correct reading (“Qui manifestatus est in carne,” vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_nt_epist-i-timotheum_lt.html). This agrees with the conclusions of the textual criticism presented in the following article:

bible.org/page.php?page_id=5030.

The article is an analysis of the manuscript evidence for the passages in the New Testament that explicitly identify Jesus as God, 1 Tim. 3:16 not being one of them.

I hope that this is helpful. May God bless you!

 

[jcrichton]

Greek hair splitting over scrupulous grammar rules that the Greeks didn’t care about anyway, over one NT word,
doesn’t change the truth.

What alarms me is the growing number of evangelicals who are duped by Gnostic elements that is in their denial of the Real Presence, and sacramentalism in general. Consequently they diminish the Incarnation and sometimes end up denying that too. They depend too much on lexicons, pagan Greek grammar, concordances, commentaries and human scholarship. It’s a form of Pelagianism: receiving divine revelation by human effort.

Hi, kepha!

I concur! I am specially tickled when they cite sources such as non-Christian Jewish scholars or those “Christian” scholars whose goal is to conform Scriptures to the world as “authoritative” sources.

They think the Holy Spirit guides the individual but not the Church that God used to produce the Bible.

…to make this dogma seem more than excessive embellishment they must subscribe to the fallacy that claims that the Holy Spirit stopped guiding the Church with the death of the last Apostle, remained inactive for nearly 1500 years, and only through pure surrendipity did the “reformers” happened upon Him so that they could provide the means for the correction of the Church through thousands of schisms…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

…to make this dogma seem more than excessive embellishment they must subscribe to the fallacy that claims that the Holy Spirit stopped guiding the Church with the death of the last Apostle, remained inactive for nearly 1500 years, and only through pure surrendipity did the “reformers” happened upon Him so that they could provide the means for the correction of the Church through thousands of schisms… Maran atha!
Angel

Christ said: The gates of hell shall not prevail against it; He would not leave us orphans; that He would send a helper (Holy Spirit). So, apparently, they do not believe Christ, either. That’s why I say they have no church without the bible, while we still do. I pray for them/

 

[jcrichton]

“Some” Evangelicals teach that baptism is not necessary. “Some” believe that the “water and the spirit” in John 3:5 means the amniotic fluid in the womb!?! Well, if that is the normative means of human birth, and is equivalent to baptism, why on earth would Christ even mention being “born from above” or “born again”? He would not even have had that conversation with Nicodemus, since all humans were so born. The seven-headed monster of private interpretation rears its ugly head(s) yet again!

Hi, po18guy!

I think that it’s part of that “symbolic” system that some of them have:

“…are you born again?” “…do you have Christ as your personal Savior?” “…here’s what you do, make this prayer “X” and you are born again…”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The article is an analysis of the manuscript evidence for the passages in the New Testament that explicitly identify Jesus as God, 1 Tim. 3:16 not being one of them.

Hi, Pete Holter!

Could you expand on this? With whom does 1 Tim 3:16 identifies Jesus?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Christ said: The gates of hell shall not prevail against it; He would not leave us orphans; that He would send a helper (Holy Spirit). So, apparently, they do not believe Christ, either. That’s why I say they have no church without the bible, while we still do. I pray for them/

Hi, po18guy!

Exactly! Some just ignore Scriptures, even when the subject of their Worship is the One making the pronouncement; no wonder Jesus stated emphatically that “not all who call me Lord, Lord, will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Pete_Holter]

Hi, Pete Holter!

Could you expand on this?

Probably not with anything that profound, but thanks for asking.
jcrichton;3405808:

With whom does 1 Tim 3:16 identifies Jesus?

Maran atha!

Angel

I would say that the text, by itself, identifies Jesus as “the mystery of godliness” in verse 15 and then goes on to reveal some details of this mystery in verse 16.

Since I believe that Jesus is God, I understand these verses as referring to God the Son. But I would establish this understanding of who Jesus is on other biblical texts and then proceed to interpret 1 Tim. 3:16 in light of that understanding.

Feel free to share any insights!

Thank you!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

hi hope can u answer my question…

The word ‘God’ was replaced by the correct word 'who’in the new bible translations when they disccovered that the former was an alteration of the Greek manuscript(ref. John James Wetstein (1693-1754)).

Respected Textual critic and Greek scholar Bruce Metzger testifies on this in his Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament:

“No uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century . . . supports qeoV; all ancient versions presuppose ÔV or ? and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading qeoV.”

Those are just some proof from respected and well-known bible scholars and experts, and was more proven with the new translations nowadays which they frankly include in their main page or footnote that the correct translation for 1 Tim 3:16 was “He who or He was made flesh.” and not “God was made flesh”.
(see the NRSV, RSV, ASV, NASB, NIV, NWT, BBE, Moffet, Rotherham, etc…)

Henceforth almost all new biblical translations(trinitarians included) has in their main or in their footnotes the correct phrase “WHO was manifested in the flesh” instead.

**See comments from the **
(RNKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of reverence: who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

(Diaglott) A pillar and basis of the truth and confessedly great is the of the piety secret. Who was manifested in flesh, was justified in spirit, was seen by messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed among a world, was taken up in glory.

Finally this quote out of the American Standard Version:
“The word God, in place of He who, rest on no sufficient ancient evidence. Some ancient authorities read which.”

this means that Jesus is not GOD???

july^_^## No; what it means is that there are two readings in 1 Tim 3:16 - these are

• Theos - God
• Hos - [He] who
  When abbreviated in Greek, they can look very alike. Unfortunately, it’s very difficult to explain unless one can type in a Greek fount But anyway, hos is the better reading. This should help:

http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Bible/_res/1Tim3-16Greek.gif

The texts are of the same verse, showing:

• at the top - the Byzantine textual reading theos
• below it - the text in the 19th-century Greek NT of Westcott & Hort, which reads hos

• & each of them is in a green box.

The whys & wherefores are explained on this page:

• foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Bible/Conspiracy.html

• which discusses the sort of question you’re asking; it’s question (3) on the page.

This page:

• bible-researcher.com/alexandrinus4.html
  explains matters very clearly, & shows how the two Greek words could be confused. I hope that clears things up.

This is not a change of doctrine. BTW, it’s not quite accurate to say “Jesus is God” - that can be taken in several senses, not all of them orthodox.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Philippians 2:6 (Contemporary English Version)

Christ was truly God.

But he did not try to remain equal with God.

Philippians 2:6 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God

as something to be used for His own advantage

Ah, whats the problem?

It certainly isn’t about any uncertainty in the reading - unlike the reading in 1 Tim. 3.16.​

OTOH, there is some uncertainty as to what Phil. 2.6b means. Isn’t NT Greek fun ?

 

[jcrichton]

Probably not with anything that profound, but thanks for asking.

I would say that the text, by itself, identifies Jesus as “the mystery of godliness” in verse 15 and then goes on to reveal some details of this mystery in verse 16.

Since I believe that Jesus is God, I understand these verses as referring to God the Son. But I would establish this understanding of who Jesus is on other biblical texts and then proceed to interpret 1 Tim. 3:16 in light of that understanding.

Feel free to share any insights!

Thank you!

Hi, Pete Holter!

Thanks! I have a better understanding of your previous statement.

Perhaps my problem is that I am inclusive of all of Scriptures all at once; so when I meet with a statement like “appeared in human form” I cannot think that it is speaking of a mere human since man is born of flesh; and I cannot see an angel coming to our rescue while simultaneously satisfying the need for the Perfect Sacrifice since angels are as we created beings.

Maran atha!

Angel