? about sex

[DailyBread]

Since I sense this will turn into back and forth banter from two sides entrenched in their beliefs, I suggest we just move on for now and pray for one another. We know what the Church teaches, we have heard the arguments, the personal experiences. I sense we are beating a bunch of dead horses, and I personally like horses, so for their sake, lets let them rest in peace. If either side wishes to seek out information from the other and help on a particular argument, then PM them or something. Right now, it seems neither is in the seeking mood. Just my last 2 cents!

 

[PennitentMan]

Since I sense this will turn into back and forth banter from two sides entrenched in their beliefs, I suggest we just move on for now and pray for one another. We know what the Church teaches, we have heard the arguments, the personal experiences. I sense we are beating a bunch of dead horses, and I personally like horses, so for their sake, lets let them rest in peace. If either side wishes to seek out information from the other and help on a particular argument, then PM them or something. Right now, it seems neither is in the seeking mood. Just my last 2 cents!

I agree here…

The only closing comment here (sorry) is that I do feel that there is a definite lack of options for those people struggling with NFP and also with unplanned pregnancies.
The feeling that a lot of people get is that there is a box, and you HAVE to fit in there, no matter what it may do to you, your family, your marriage or your fture.

But, I will bow out here, because, like you said, we are killing innocent horses, and equestrian slaughter is a big no-no for me too!

In Christ,
PM

 

[fix]

The feeling that a lot of people get is that there is a box, and you HAVE to fit in there, no matter what it may do to you, your family, your marriage or your fture.

But the “box” we want to fit in is love and truth. That “box” is Christ. What is outside that box?

 

[PennitentMan]

But the “box” we want to fit in is love and truth. That “box” is Christ. What is outside that box?

But do you think that Christ is as ridgid with this box as many here attest to?

Christ is love. Will He turn his back on a struggling child of His, especially when the rules that cause the struggles are from Catholocism?

There *has *to be leaway. God is not that unforgiving. He wants us to come to Him not be driven away by Catholic rules.

Sheesh! Look at me again, I thought I was going to bow out! Sorry!

 

[fix]

But do you think that Christ is as ridgid with this box as many here attest to?

He is not rigid. There is a lower limit to the law, but no upper limit. The law exists for our good. It is not a burden when we understand it correctly.

Christ is love. Will He turn his back on a struggling child of His, especially when the rules that cause the struggles are from Catholocism?

The precepts we speak of here come directly from Him. He cannot contradict Himself. The problem is how we view discipleship. As a burden or as love?

There *has *to be leaway. God is not that unforgiving. He wants us to come to Him not be driven away by Catholic rules.

There is no leeway. Truth is truth. “Catholic” rules are His “rules”. They do not exist to make us suffer. They free us.

 

[PennitentMan]

There is no leeway. Truth is truth. “Catholic” rules are His “rules”. They do not exist to make us suffer. They free us.

Tell that to my wife, our finances, marybee, and countless others here…
It’s pretty craaapy sitting in debt, orhaving a medical condition, or suffering from severe depression but you are supposed to be “free”.

 

[fix]

Tell that to my wife, our finances, marybee, and countless others here…
It’s pretty craaapy sitting in debt, orhaving a medical condition, or suffering from severe depression but you are supposed to be “free”.

Sin is not freedom.

 

[stadre]

Tell that to my wife, our finances, marybee, and countless others here…
It’s pretty craaapy sitting in debt, orhaving a medical condition, or suffering from severe depression but you are supposed to be “free”.

I am really do feel for your struggles right now. I also hope that I don’t sound too preachy. While I am not there now, I can anticipate a time in our marriage where another pregnancy will kill me.

What I do know is that, as hard as it will be, we will use NFP to avoid a pregnancy at that time. I hope you can believe me as to how difficult this will be for DH and myself. You see, we suffer from infertility and have NEVER tried to avoid a pregnancy (other than the army deployment method ). So, even though we have only managed two pregnacies in 8 years (both miscarried), because of the likelihood of my death we would have to avoid, even knowing that we would probably not get pregnant.

It took me many years after accepting NFP to get to this point. Even after we learned NFP, I figured that I would get my tubes tied once my life depended on not getting pregnant. I said the same thing you do, “It would be irresponsible,” “I have to take care of the family God already gave me,” etc. It took a lot for me to realize that God isn’t going to send me another baby if it isn’t in my or my family’s best interest.

Now I know that we will be able to avoid a pregnancy to the best of our ability, while still knowing that God is the author of all life. If we follow His guidelines for marriage and carefully avoid our fertile times and still He blesses us with another child, it will be the right thing for us. That isn’t to say that I may not die in such a situation. It is to say that it is the best way for me and my family to get to heaven. That is our goal, not a long life here on earth.

I don’t have all the answers for the difficulties in our lives. I do know that God’s plan is the best for us. God designed the marital relationship. He will not send you another child unless that child is needed for your family (and maybe for others as well). This isn’t me trying to be “holier-than-thou.” This is my self preservation speaking. How else can I explain to myself and our daughter why God will not give us more children and why He took the other two He did give us. It must be that 1. the ones with Him are prayer warriors who we greatly need and 2. other children in our home (at this point) will not help us on our journey to heaven. If I were to die in a pregnancy, I know that my family here will need my prayers from heaven more than they would have needed me physically here. It won’t make it easier on them, but it is the Truth that God gives us.

 

[newbetx]

I agree here…

The only closing comment here (sorry) is that I do feel that there is a definite lack of options for those people struggling with NFP and also with unplanned pregnancies.
The feeling that a lot of people get is that there is a box, and you HAVE to fit in there, no matter what it may do to you, your family, your marriage or your fture.

But, I will bow out here, because, like you said, we are killing innocent horses, and equestrian slaughter is a big no-no for me too!

In Christ,
PM

Thanks, PM, for your patience and willingness to discuss this highly debated topic with us…

I was “over there” at one point myself. What I discovered through having Theology of the Body explained to me is that this issue is way more than just preventing pregnancy and showing love to each other.

Yes, the marital embrace is A mechanism to show your love to one another. And to develop a permanent bond between the couple. And I personally think it’s a great one. But there are other ways. And these need to be exercised regularly, too.

Yes, it is important to achieve the ecstasy associated with sex to understand the euphoria associated with heaven. But it does not have to be every day. Or in the latest buzzword “On Demand.”

Yes, things may be fine in your marital relationship now… but how to maintain that for 20, 50 or 70 years? (Yes, I hope so!) The mechanism is sacrifice. That of waiting, resting, and then building anticipation. Enabling you to develop other joint activities with your time together. Like thinking of others or God in prayer.

Again, the focus continues to be on the “don’ts” here and not on the “do’s” of TOB… We seem to focus so much on what “we’ll miss” and not on what we gain. I was in that trap. And until I understood, my selfishness was ripping my marriage apart!

AND this form of discussion is probably the WORST method I’ve ever seen to try to persuade a person to change their point of view… sigh.

As others have said, this has been debated enough… IMHO, our task is not to debate but to educate. I’m not much of a salesman but Christopher West’s books worked for me and I highly recommend them. I have read others that bring more enforcement to the idea of chastity, even within a marriage. I came here and got the references. And in my own time, without being judged, I was able to take it in as I could. And through this, I believe, I was able to become a better person (and Catholic).

 

[PennitentMan]

No, you are not sounding preachy, thank you for your heartfelt post.

I am still trying to understand this teaching, so allow me to address this point.

It took me many years after accepting NFP to get to this point. Even after we learned NFP, I figured that I would get my tubes tied once my life depended on not getting pregnant. I said the same thing you do, “It would be irresponsible,” “I have to take care of the family God already gave me,” etc. It took a lot for me to realize that God isn’t going to send me another baby if it isn’t in my or my family’s best interest.

But this is my point. Countless cases are out there where having more children are not the best thing for the family. And yet, despite their best efforts those couples get pregnant. And the end result is that the family suffer. That is what I cannot reconcile. That God would willingly give us this gift when He knows that it would lead to much strain, stress, dispair and sin.

 

[LittleDeb]

Some more very charitable responses from both sides. It is very heartening to see!

Marybee, if you are comfortable with it please PM me. I use a different method entirely but have seen others who struggle with charting. I love charting. I started seeking out learning NFP for the health benefits before I married. Confusing charts and uncertainty about symptoms can be very frustrating.

“Lack of sex” in general is a sacrifice to be offered up, but being unsure of chart and symptom interpretations is not helpful at all. That you have stayed committed even while struggling with charts is commendable. Please let me help you to have a better understanding of your fertility. As newbetx said it was Theology of the Body that led me to a deeper understanding of our bodies and our purpose. Understanding that helped me embrace my sexuality. Charting now is just “cool” because I get to witness such an amazing design.

May God bless all of you who struggle and persevere. You can be great witnesses to the beauty of Church teaching based entirely on God’s design.

 

[blessedtoo]

The couple using NFP can only be intimate when the woman is “turned off”. It’s not something she wants to do. It’s something she needs to “work on” each month.
This cause MAJOR friction in the average NFP-practicing marriage. It also leads to serious temptations for the man during the infertile times (When they can’t but the wife wants to), and for the woman during the fertile times (When they can but the wife doesn’t want to).

PM, it may be that some women experience a diminished drive while practising NFP during the infertile times, but certainly not all are “turned off”. In a case where this does happen, is it not possible that God is calling the husband to show his love for the wife by accepting this sacrifice without the frustration, resentment, and anger he continues to express? Isn’t this also a tremendous illustration of love for both the spouse and for God? And the same applies in the reverse. There are certainly women who also suffer frustration when their husbands are unwilling to engage in the marital act. Offering this frustration and anger to God and continuing to approach one’s spouse with love seems like a much more efficacious way of engendering affection.

The couple using ABC can come together in the marital embrace and share the intimacy they both want and need. Any time. They share more love, more intimacy and more closeness than the couple practicing NFP.

No - they share more sex. That’s all.

There *has *to be leaway. God is not that unforgiving. He wants us to come to Him not be driven away by Catholic rules.

The “leaway” is in the grace God gives us to shoulder our crosses. Everything we need to FOLLOW His rules is provided to us through the Church. Everything. God does not need to give us “breaks” in the structures of life that He created. He does not have to give permission to break the rules that He also lived by through His son, Jesus Christ. All the help you need to cope with your troubles is available to you through Christ. And you have received more help, information and suggestions here at CAF than anyone could ever need (and I’m not even counting the consultations you’ve had with your priests!). Sometimes, we just have to make the choice to stop fighting and believe.

 

[johntkd]

Please for the sake of all the arguements that you have presented in this thread, please tell me that you want to take this back, please. .

No i do not take that back sorry,

As I am sure that you have heard, sexual intercourse must be unitive and procreative. How can that be so when the man wears a condom? .

No arguements here about condoms…

When the woman uses the pill?.

simple enough God Gave us the same resources to learn to use our own bodies hormones to stop conception same as he gave us the brains to make paper so we can chart fertility.

With NFP, each and every act of intercourse is open to human life…

This is where my opinion of NFP goes bad. Spending that much time trying to learn and figure out your own fertility cycles, then having relations based on those is as far from being open to life as using a condom in my opinion actually to me its even farther away from it because everyone that uses a condom knows they are a serious risk for pregnancy. where as in the words of our Church NFP is as effective or more effective than the pill…

what the effect? Being unopen to conception what is conception? LIFE why cant you people see this?
then you argue how its so much more In Gods will than any of the others if that was truely the case it would be Instinct, like eating ridding the body of waste breathing and even making love,
we do not need scientists,books or classes to be anle to do any of those things which means they are in fact truely natural and By Gods design.
I see not one single thing in scripture telling us that NFP is God design, I do see go forth and multiply, and I do not see footnotes saying till you feel you have had enough children, or feel you cannot afford them etc…

Whether fertile or infertile, every act. How can that be true with ABC?.

Find me one person that believes that any form of ABC short of a hysterectomy is 100%, therefore they know they are taking a risk everytime to me that is being more open to life than an NFP practitioner simply because most whom use ABC have no clue when they are fertile and when they are not, where as an NFP couple makes it one of the most important things in thier lives to know their own fertility just so they can side step it,( of course some use it to have children as well, which is also trying to be in charge of thier own sexual life as its been put.and to me in no different than fertility pills invetro fertilization etc

Now please do not throw the immaculate conception of Mary when she conceived Jesus because as far as I know there is not a woman on this earth (or one that has passed away) that deserves that honor and distiction from our Lord.

I dont believe i used any names, I merely said it dont matter if you abstain or not if God truely wants you to be pregnant you will be…

 

[johntkd]

I have heard this too, but my interviews with other women have shown a different common thread. From my non-scientific view it has been women on the Pill who have this cycle of desire. It would make sense because that time is when the sex drive lowering hormone dose is leaving and they are going to the week 4 placebo. Their drive during “menstruation” or more accurately “withdrawal bleeding” is their actual sex drive, not the lowered one in the fake cycle.

Don’t quote me because I have no source, but this has been my experience both personally and from speaking with women. A decade ago I was on hormonal contraception to “treat” my female troubles. I was on a three week cycle of pills so I never bled. I also had no sex drive at all.

actually thats a little off week 4 are not the only “placebos”
basically the first 6 days are active pills per month the rest are what they consider reminder pills,(reminding you to take them everyday, the different color pills let u know menstrual cycle is coming

 

[johntkd]

No - they share more sex. That’s all.

Is this something you know 100% for sure or just something you are posting??because thats a pretty big statement to say all who use are that way…

I see divorces on both sides of the fence and i see 50 yr reunions on both sides of the fence as well.

and In case you think differently I am not an ABC fan but i am also not a NFP fan either I believe they are as bad as each other.
with few exceptions,
matter of fact I see NFP couples as far less open to life than ABC couples esspecially some of the ones on here whom always are saying its more effective than the pill,
I know priests whom say NFP is the hardest part of a catholic Marriage and is also one of the biggest causes of a divorce in a Catholic marriage, and they generally say those whom really try to push NFP on others are either extremely happy with the results or its the old misery loves company thing,
now the writers of the premarriage classes say that hanging the roll of TP on the roller wrong is the biggest cause of a divorce but who knows anymore, they come up with millions of reasons for divorce label each the “bigest cause” yet it all boils down to communication…

sorry got side tracked there…

anyways if you like abc and are happy with it so be it if you like NFP and are happy with it so be it, but each side has to quit this stretching out of how great each is, neither is reliable to 100%
calling NFP a sacrifice is one of the most bogus things I have ever heard in my life its pure selfishness, a selfishness that takes a lot of valuble time to make happen, and sorry but keeping charts everyday,making sure of discharge, taking temps etc and doing this dang near everyday of your short life is NOT being open to life, I know people whom spend less time eating weekly

My normally useless 2 cents

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

simple enough God Gave us the same resources to learn to use our own bodies hormones to stop conception same as he gave us the brains to make paper so we can chart fertility.

This is a baseless arguement. That can be applied to anything that man has created, but the gifts that God has given to us can be used for bad purposes.

This is where my opinion of NFP goes bad. Spending that much time trying to learn and figure out your own fertility cycles, then having relations based on those is as far from being open to life as using a condom in my opinion actually to me its even farther away from it because everyone that uses a condom knows they are a serious risk for pregnancy. where as in the words of our Church NFP is as effective or more effective than the pill.

As a matter of fact it is being open to life when you are in a “infertile” period. You are not taking the fertility out of the picture. Even though you have done all of your charting there is still a chance that you could get pregnant. That is not possible when using birth control. How can having sex with a condom be equated with having sex without. You do know how a condom works, correct? It stops the sperm and semen from entering into the wife’s cervix. How is that equal to that of having sex without any barrier?

what the effect? Being unopen to conception what is conception? LIFE why cant you people see this?
then you argue how its so much more In Gods will than any of the others if that was truely the case it would be Instinct, like eating ridding the body of waste breathing and even making love,
we do not need scientists,books or classes to be anle to do any of those things which means they are in fact truely natural and By Gods design.

Do we need to go back to basic birds and bees here to explain what conception is? Are you that dumbfounded by that? I am not sure where your question is going? We, by using NFP are OPEN TO LIFE EVERY SINGLE TIME WE HAVE SEX! Using artificial birth control is not!

Do you need a scientist to tell you when you do not feel good? When you are sick? When you need to urinate? When you need to eat? These are signs that you know because it is your body, same with a woman’s fertility. These are signs that the woman knows. Naturally.

I see not one single thing in scripture telling us that NFP is God design, I do see go forth and multiply, and I do not see footnotes saying till you feel you have had enough children, or feel you cannot afford them etc…

So I am assuming that you do not follow the Magesterium of the Catholic Church?

Find me one person that believes that any form of ABC short of a hysterectomy is 100%, therefore they know they are taking a risk everytime to me that is being more open to life than an NFP practitioner simply because most whom use ABC have no clue when they are fertile and when they are not, where as an NFP couple makes it one of the most important things in thier lives to know their own fertility just so they can side step it,( of course some use it to have children as well, which is also trying to be in charge of thier own sexual life as its been put.and to me in no different than fertility pills invetro fertilization etc

They are not open to life every time. That is what you are not getting. God created sex. God knows all about sex. Taking Him out of the equation is what is wrong. That is why using ABC is against the Church. When you are using ABC you are saying to your wife, “I give you everything that I have, all my love, my life, my body, my soul, oh wait, but not my fertility! That is mine, I am keeping that, you cannot have that.” Intimacy? Closeness? The NFP couple gives EVERYTHING just as Christ gave EVERYTHING! When we receive communion at mass, we hear “Take this all of you and eat it, this is My body given up for you!!” That is what we say to our spouses when we give ourselves to them totally, faithfully and fruitfully in the marital embrace as we use NFP, take my body which I have given for you!

 

[astegallrnc]

actually thats a little off week 4 are not the only “placebos”
basically the first 6 days are active pills per month the rest are what they consider reminder pills,(reminding you to take them everyday, the different color pills let u know menstrual cycle is coming

This is incorrect. The number of active pills varies. On traditional pills, a woman takes 21 active pills. Loestin 24 contains 24 active pills. There are now extended regimens. With Seasonale, a woman takes 84 active pills followed by 1 weeks of inactive pills.

My apologies for getting off topic.

 

[johntkd]

.

As a matter of fact it is being open to life when you are in a “infertile” period. You are not taking the fertility out of the picture. Even though you have done all of your charting there is still a chance that you could get pregnant. That is not possible when using birth control. How can having sex with a condom be equated with having sex without. You do know how a condom works, correct? It stops the sperm and semen from entering into the wife’s cervix. How is that equal to that of having sex without any barrier?.

you are taking it out of the picture and its totally unopen to life

Do we need to go back to basic birds and bees here to explain what conception is? Are you that dumbfounded by that? I am not sure where your question is going? We, by using NFP are OPEN TO LIFE EVERY SINGLE TIME WE HAVE SEX! Using artificial birth control is not! .

then please explain how spending that much time to know when not to have sex to avoid pregnancy is open to life, explain how you are not saying to God by practicing NFP hey I dont want to get pregnant so I am not allowing my husband my body when its fertile, I shall deny him MY fertility cause i dont want any kids right now, But Gee we are open to life give me a break

Do you need a scientist to tell you when you do not feel good? When you are sick? When you need to urinate? When you need to eat? These are signs that you know because it is your body, same with a woman’s fertility. These are signs that the woman knows. Naturally…

thats fine no classes no paper charts no man made temps if she knows then it by design and instinct if not then its artificial

They are not open to life every time…

why do you say that give me some examples is it because someone told you its so? if that same person told you to jump from a bridge on a thursday afternoon would you also?

That is what you are not getting. God created sex. God knows all about sex. Taking Him out of the equation is what is wrong…

How is it taking him out of the equation? seems all the NFPers think God is incapable of getting past something man made,not even close though.

When you are using ABC you are saying to your wife, "I give you everything that I have, all my love, my life, my body, my soul, oh wait, but not my fertility! That is mine, I am keeping that.

NFP is exactly that only its the woman taking her fertility from the man, so your example just proved what I have been trying to say all along thank you!!! and its your own words

ntimacy? Closeness? The NFP couple gives EVERYTHING .

As long as it is not in the fertile time of month thats what you have been trained to not see with propaghanda

just as Christ gave EVERYTHING! When we receive communion at mass, we hear “Take this all of you and eat it, this is My body given up for you!!” That is what we say to our spouses when we give ourselves to them totally.

again as long as not within a fertile time of month so the word totally is not even remotely true more like 58%

Thank you for proving my points exactly
John

 

[johntkd]

This is incorrect. The number of active pills varies. On traditional pills, a woman takes 21 active pills. Loestin 24 contains 24 active pills. There are now extended regimens. With Seasonale, a woman takes 84 active pills followed by 1 weeks of inactive pills.

My apologies for getting off topic.

saying its incorrect is as incorrect you gave one example then went off on new lengthy ABC,why not cover several varieties? oh because i was dead on with at least 8 different pills…
one of the most popular contains 7 active pills and the rest have other ingredients that help your skin, and they use that as a selling advertisement as well, anyways off topic again

I also want to add here that although I dont see ABC as any better or any worse as NFP ABC have other dangers due to the hormones there are so many side effects many of them very dangerous and long term that they are hardly worth the risk.
the potential risks for cancer alone are high but many people dont relize that the potential for blood clots is far more dangerous and also more common…
thats prolly the one area NFP as “BIRTH CONTROL” accells over ABC

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

you are taking it out of the picture and its totally unopen to life

Again you are wrong.

then please explain how spending that much time to know when not to have sex to avoid pregnancy is open to life, explain how you are not saying to God by practicing NFP hey I dont want to get pregnant so I am not allowing my husband my body when its fertile, I shall deny him MY fertility cause i dont want any kids right now, But Gee we are open to life give me a break

Again, you seem to be lacking a lot of knowledge about the faith. You clearly have not researched this topic at all. If you had you would realize what the Chruch teaches about spacing children.

thats fine no classes no paper charts no man made temps if she knows then it by design and instinct if not then its artificial

Makes no sense

why do you say that give me some examples is it because someone told you its so? if that same person told you to jump from a bridge on a thursday afternoon would you also?

Do you read what you post before you post it? This makes no sense as a response to what I said.

How is it taking him out of the equation? seems all the NFPers think God is incapable of getting past something man made,not even close though.

:banghead:

NFP is exactly that only its the woman taking her fertility from the man, so your example just proved what I have been trying to say all along thank you!!! and its your own words

Wait, John is that you out in left field? I cannot see you… you are so far out there.

As long as it is not in the fertile time of month thats what you have been trained to not see with propaghanda

What? You have done no research on this and seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth.

again as long as not within a fertile time of month so the word totally is not even remotely true more like 58%

Your so far from the truth. This jsut proves to me that you really do not know what you are talking about.

Thank you for proving my points exactly

No thank you for proving mine!!

None of the points that you made were able to contradict anything that I have posted and at this point, I have shown you why NFP is following God’s plan and you have done nothing to show that it is not.

I am tired of beating a dead horse with you. If you are so assure of yourself take the time to read “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” and then tell me that what you have holds any weight. Until you do so, I am finished debating this with you.