About the meaning of a verse

[Templum]

Hi,

I’m studying the Bible and am gradually understanding Jesus’ life and so forth. However, I need some clarification for this passage:

(John’s gospel, chapter 17 verse 9: "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you gave me for they belong to you.

*What does the word “world” mean? Who or what is it? Why isn’t Jesus praying for the “world”? What’s wrong with it?

Thanks,
Templum

 

[JerryS]

Jesus is praying for his disciples. This is narrowly the apostles, although non-Catholic interpretations might tend to make this all disciples. That it is the apostles is clearer later, when Jesus expands his prayer to those who come to faith through the ones originally prayed for (John 17:20). The world is everyone. So, Jesus is not praying for everyone, he is praying for his disciples. The focus here is on who he is praying for (apostles), not really on those he isn’t praying for at the moment (everyone). That is, it doesn’t mean that Jesus never prays for everyone, just that he isn’t right now.

 

[po18guy]

Go back to John 15:18-19 and you will see that ‘the world’ is those who reject and oppose Jesus. The prince of “this world” is the devil (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11). Also, Jesus gives us His peace “not as the world gives” (John 14:27). Good thing is that you need not leave the Gospel of john to further research the term “world”.

 

[Shin]

Hi,

(John’s gospel, chapter 17 verse 9: "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you gave me for they belong to you.

*What does the word “world” mean? Who or what is it? Why isn’t Jesus praying for the “world”? What’s wrong with it?

Here… a meditation of quotes…

'And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world.

Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin.’

John 8:23-24

‘Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man love the world, the charity of the Father is not in him.’

1 John 2:15

‘For all that is in the world is the concupiscence of the flesh and the concupiscence of the eyes and the pride of life, which is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world passeth away and the concupiscence thereof: but he that doth the will of God abideth for ever.’

1 John 2:16-2:17

‘Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.’

Luke 13:23-24

‘For if you live according to the flesh, you shall die: but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.’

Romans 8:13

‘I know my mine, and they know me.’

John 10:14

‘But if any man know not, he shall not be known.’

1 Corinthians 14:38

‘The number of the predestined is certain, and can neither be increased nor diminished.’

St. Augustine

‘Since their eternal happiness, consisting in the vision of God, exceeds the common state of nature, and especially in so far as this is deprived of grace through the corruption of original sin, those who are saved are in the minority. In this especially, however, appears the mercy of God, that He has chosen some for that salvation, from which very many in accordance with the common course and tendency of nature fall short.’

St. Thomas Aquinas

‘Blessed is the mind which, during prayer, is drawn neither to the material nor to possessions.’

St. Nilus of Sinai

‘God shows the Soul also, that all the benefits bestowed on her by creatures (whether spiritual or temporal) are given because God moves them to it; and hence she learns to take no heed of creatures, what service soever they may have rendered her, for she perceives clearly that it is God who has done it by the action of His providence. By this vision the Soul is more and more inflamed, and finally abandons herself to love, casting aside all creatures, and finding in God such fullness that she can regard nothing else but him.’

St. Catherine of Genoa

'When you find your intellect occupied pleasurably with material things and becoming fondly attached to its conceptual images of them, you may be sure that you love these things more than God. “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.”

Scripture calls material things “the world”; and worldly men are those who occupy their intellect with these things. It is such men that Scripture rebukes when it says: “Do not love the world or the things that are in the world. . . The desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and pride in one’s possessions, are not of God but of the world.”’

The self-indulgent person loves wealth because it enables him to live comfortably; the person full of self-esteem loves it because through it he can gain the esteem of others; the person who lacks faith loves it because, fearful of starvation, old age, disease, or exile, he can save it and hoard it. He puts his trust in wealth rather than in God, the Creator who provides for all creation, down to the least of living things.’

St. Maximos the Confessor

‘Abba Ammonas was asked, "What is the “narrow and hard way?” He replied, “The ‘narrow and hard way’ is this, to control your thoughts, and to strip yourself of your own will, for the sake of God. This is also the meaning of the sentence, ‘Lo, we have left everything and followed you.’”’

from the Sayings of the Desert Fathers

‘Holiness is something so great and precious that one cannot pay too much for it.’

St. Claude de la Colombi

 

[Shin]

Act of Love
from the Small Roman Missal

As the hart panteth after the fountains of water, so my soul panteth after Thee, O God! “My soul hath thirsted after the strong, living God; when shall I come and appear before the face of God?” “For what have I in heaven? And besides Thee, what do I desire on earth?” Let blind and infatuated worldlings intoxicate themselves with the false, transient, and fading happiness of this life; for my part, nothing besides Thyself can content me, either in heaven or on earth. Come then, O Thou Lamb of God, Who takest away the sins of the world! Come, Thou beloved of my heart! Adorable Flesh and precious Blood of my Saviour! Come, to nourish, comfort, and enliven my sickly soul. O God of my heart! Let me neither love, seek, nor think of any other object but Thyself alone; for Thou alone art my consolation, my treasure, my joy, my life, my all!

“My heart and my flesh have rejoiced in the living God… Thou art, O Lord of hosts! My King and my God!” “Who will give me wings like a dove and I will fly and be at rest!”

 

[Sheadad]

about the meaning of a verse
Hi,

I’m studying the Bible and am gradually understanding Jesus’ life and so forth. However, I need some clarification for this passage:

(John’s gospel, chapter 17 verse 9: "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you gave me for they belong to you.

*What does the word “world” mean? Who or what is it? Why isn’t Jesus praying for the “world”? What’s wrong with it?

Different interpretations say this verse a little differently. However, to answer your questions, the “world” is the world just as we know it today. Israel is God’s chosen
people, so everyone outside of that nation is the world. After Christ was baptised, Now that Christ was sactfied, we that believe are also sanctfied through him to God. His blood was shed for those that believed in him and all those that would believe in him. Not for the world as a whole. (see Isaiah 53:12 (yet he bore the sin of many)). Now as Catholics, we don’t have any idea of who (through our example of works and sharing His gospel), will come to believe. Therefore we don’t see the “world” in the same way Christ did. He already knew that some were believers and some were not and would never be.

Yes this prayer is in direct relation to the apostles but there is a neat opportunity here to see how every prayer was also a chance to teach us a little more about God’s nature.

Blessings to all,
Shaun

 

[bogeydogg]

Hi,

I’m studying the Bible and am gradually understanding Jesus’ life and so forth. However, I need some clarification for this passage:

(John’s gospel, chapter 17 verse 9: "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you gave me for they belong to you.

*What does the word “world” mean? Who or what is it? Why isn’t Jesus praying for the “world”? What’s wrong with it?

Thanks,
Templum

The world is those who are not Christ’s and Christ does not intercede for those who are not His. This does not mean that Christ does not love the world neither does it mean that He has no compassion for the world, it only means that in the special sense of “those who are His” (the Apostles and all who will believe their teaching) are those for whom he intercedes and not others.

God Bless

 

[ryanoneil]

Go back to John 15:18-19 and you will see that ‘the world’ is those who reject and oppose Jesus. The prince of “this world” is the devil (John 12:31, 14:30, 16:11). Also, Jesus gives us His peace “not as the world gives” (John 14:27). Good thing is that you need not leave the Gospel of john to further research the term “world”.

I agree in general, but there may be a more narrow reference to unbelieving Israel of Jesus’ generation. Specifically, that wicked generation he said would be judged.

**He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him. He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him. (John 1:10-11)

"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me also hates my Father. If I had not done works among them that no one else ever did, they would not have sin; but as it is, they have seen and hated both me and my Father. (John 15:18-24)

"I have told you this so that you may not fall away. They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God. They will do this because they have not known either the Father or me. (John 16:1-3)

**

 

[po18guy]

I agree in general, but there may be a more narrow reference to unbelieving Israel of Jesus’ generation. Specifically, that wicked generation he said would be judged.

**He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, but the world did not know him. He came to what was his own, but his own people did not accept him. (John 1:10-11)

"If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you. Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin. Whoever hates me also hates my Father. If I had not done works among them that no one else ever did, they would not have sin; but as it is, they have seen and hated both me and my Father. (John 15:18-24)

"I have told you this so that you may not fall away. They will expel you from the synagogues; in fact, the hour is coming when everyone who kills you will think he is offering worship to God. They will do this because they have not known either the Father or me. (John 16:1-3)

**

Being a “big picture” kind of guy, I look at verses realizing that everything inspired by God is related, in some way, to everything else He has ever inspired. If not in context, then in principle.

 

[ryanoneil]

Being a “big picture” kind of guy, I look at verses realizing that everything inspired by God is related, in some way, to everything else He has ever inspired. If not in context, then in principle.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi,

I’m studying the Bible and am gradually understanding Jesus’ life and so forth. However, I need some clarification for this passage:

(John’s gospel, chapter 17 verse 9: "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those you gave me for they belong to you.

*What does the word “world” mean? Who or what is it? Why isn’t Jesus praying for the “world”? What’s wrong with it?

Thanks,
Templum

Hi Templum!

The world is just that the world… but in Jesus’ terms: those who do not believe–we must understand that Jesus is not suggesting that there are people predestined to be Saved and those (the world) predestined for Hell; Jesus is simply keeping with task: the Messiah comes to the children of Israel (as He first directs His disciples: St. Matthew 10:5-7; and He Himself pronounces: St. Matthew 15:26). Conversely, there are explicit passages that demonstrate that there is a difference, in God’s Terms, between the Believers and the world:

St. John 1:10-13
10 He was in the world that had come into being through him, and the world did not recognise him. 11 He came to his own and his own people did not accept him. 12 But to those who did accept him he gave power to become children of God, to those who believed in his name 13 who were born not from human stock or human desire or human will but from God himself.

St. John 3:16-21
16 For this is how God loved the world: he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. 17 For God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but so that through him the world might be saved. 18 No one who believes in him will be judged; but whoever does not believe is judged already, because that person does not believe in the Name of God’s only Son. 19 And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; 21 but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.’

…and to get a clearer picture of them vs. the world, revisit verse 8:

8 for I have given them the teaching you gave to me, and they have indeed accepted it and know for certain that I came from you, and have believed that it was you who sent me.

It is by accepting Jesus, our Lord and Savior (the Messiah: the Emmanuel: the Mighty God: the Eternal-Father), that we, the Believers, cease being part of the world. So Jesus rightly prays for His Disciples (which by necesity includes all who will come to Believe through Faith in Him by the preaching of the Apostles).

Interestingly enough, St Paul speaks on this vein:

Ephisians 1:3-16
3 Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ. 4 Thus he chose us in Christ before the world was made to be holy and faultless before him in love, 5 marking us out for himself beforehand, to be adopted sons, through Jesus Christ. Such was his purpose and good pleasure, 6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, his free gift to us in the Beloved, 7 in whom, through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins. Such is the richness of the grace 8 which he has showered on us in all wisdom and insight. 9 He has let us know the mystery of his purpose, according to his good pleasure which he determined beforehand in Christ, 10 for him to act upon when the times had run their course: that he would bring everything together under Christ, as head, everything in the heavens and everything on earth. 11 And it is in him that we have received our heritage, marked out beforehand as we were, under the plan of the One who guides all things as he decides by his own will, 12 chosen to be, for the praise of his glory, the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came. 13 Now you too, in him, have heard the message of the truth and the gospel of your salvation, and having put your trust in it you have been stamped with the seal of the Holy Spirit of the Promise, 14 who is the pledge of our inheritance, for the freedom of the people whom God has taken for his own, for the praise of his glory. 15 That is why I, having once heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus, and your love for all God’s holy people, 16 have never failed to thank God for you and to remember you in my prayers.

I hope this helps!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Shin]

those who do not believe–we must understand that Jesus is not suggesting that there are people predestined to be Saved and those (the world) predestined for Hell;

Well, predestination is a little more complicated than that… but that’s probably another thread…

 

[Crumpy]

I’m reading Pope Benedict’s second volume of Jesus of Nazareth, and he spends some time on this very question. He does it as part of explaining Jesus’s priestly prayer at the Last Supper.

If I’m not mistaken, Benedict says that Jesus is praying here for just his disciples.

This is a book that has a lot of questions and answers packed into it, like whether the “last supper” was a Passover meal. He thinks it was (so do I) but it’s hard for him to come to af final resolution of it. He leaves the question open, on the table, so to speak.

He cites a lot of Bible experts, agreeing with them at times, and then pulling the rug out from under them at other times.

Another issue he brings up is whether Jesus instituted the Eucharist, by somebody attributing the words of institution to him. He ends by dismissing any other possibility except that Jesus instituted the Eucharist. He speculates that nobody else could possibly have any motive to do that except Jesus.

He brings out information that I’ve never heard of. For example, so many people came to Jerusalem for the Passover celebration, that the city limits were temporarily expanded to allow people to celebrate outside the usual limits. So, Jesus was still “in bounds” when he was praying in the garden of Gethsemane.

If my understanding is correct, he and other theologians attribute the founding of the church to the priestly prayer and to the words of Eucharistic institution. For me, there’s so much new information in his book. Benedict is a theologian and theology is still way over my head. I read what he says and think “OK” but I’d never had the thought otherwise if I hadn’t read it.

Another example. He puts a lot of Christian theology on the lips of the high priest Caiaphas. The high priest is quoted as saying it is better for one man to die (Jesus) than for many to die (the Jews) for bringing political upheaval to Jerusalem. Well, theologically, that is exactly what Jesus is doing is dying for all mankind (not just Israel) – not for political reasons, but for religious reasons. Benedict points out significantly that Jesus separated religion from politics, which was not the case in Jerusalem and in Judaism at the time.

So,in short, Benedict has an answer to the question in the OP. Read the book.

 

[jcrichton]

He brings out information that I’ve never heard of. For example, so many people came to Jerusalem for the Passover celebration, that the city limits were temporarily expanded to allow people to celebrate outside the usual limits.

Hi, Crumpy!

.the above is another example of the religious’ blindness as Isaiah’s prophecy is vevealed:

20 Once more they will say in your hearing, the children of whom you were bereft, ‘The place is too cramped for me, make room for me to live.’ 21 Then you will think to yourself, ‘Who has borne me these? I was bereft and barren, exiled, turned out of my home; who has reared these? I was left all alone, so where have these come from?’ 22 Thus says Lord Yahweh: Look, I am beckoning to the nations and hoisting a signal to the peoples: they will bring your sons in their arms and your daughters will be carried on their shoulders. (Isaiah 49:20-22)

Another example. He puts a lot of Christian theology on the lips of the high priest Caiaphas. The high priest is quoted as saying it is better for one man to die (Jesus) than for many to die (the Jews) for bringing political upheaval to Jerusalem. Well, theologically, that is exactly what Jesus is doing is dying for all mankind (not just Israel) – not for political reasons, but for religious reasons. Benedict points out significantly that Jesus separated religion from politics, which was not the case in Jerusalem and in Judaism at the time.

It is not Pope Benedict that does this, it is the Sacred Scriptures:

47 Then the chief priests and Pharisees called a meeting. ‘Here is this man working all these signs,’ they said, ‘and what action are we taking? 48 If we let him go on in this way everybody will believe in him, and the Romans will come and suppress the Holy Place and our nation.’ 49 One of them, Caiaphas, the high priest that year, said, ‘You do not seem to have grasped the situation at all; 50 you fail to see that it is to your advantage that one man should die for the people, rather than that the whole nation should perish.’ 51 He did not speak in his own person, but as high priest of that year he was prophesying that Jesus was to die for the nation-52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather together into one the scattered children of God. 53 From that day onwards they were determined to kill him. (St. John 11:47-53)

Notice that for being Yahweh’s reps their concern was not Salvation but their status and material well-being!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[bogeydogg]

Well, predestination is a little more complicated than that… but that’s probably another thread…

I don’t think we have to say this is about predestination, I think instead we need only acknowledge that the Lord Himself told us some are His and some are not. Thus those for whom he makes intercession are His.

This is not surprising.

God Bless