About the Trinity

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Loginus,

Seriously, read that link I provided. That guy Frank Sheed knows his stuff as well as how to explain it. He doesn’t even have to resort to analogies. There’s nothing wrong with analogies, but when it comes to the Trinity people seem to have a lot of trouble moving past that level. The explanation is very clear and straightforward.
 
From Exoflare’s link:
The doctrine may be set out in four statements:

In the one Divine Nature, there are three Persons,
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
The Father is not the Son,
the Son is not the Holy Ghost,
the Holy Ghost is not the Father:
no one of the Persons is either of the others.
The Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Ghost is God.
There are not three Gods but one God.
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That is a picture perfect contradiction. No wonder the writer warns us not to get too hung up on “intellect.”

I’m sorry, but there is no possible way to read this teaching and conclude that it is consistent. It is contradictory.
 
exoflare;1653401]This is an excellent explanation on the Trinity - without exaggeration, THE BEST I have ever found! The author has really opened up a lot of doors for me in my understanding.

katapi.org.uk/TandS/VI.htm
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first time i read it…i like it too 🙂

analogies are used to simplify the concept. Jesus always used analogies because He knew humans understand better with material analogies:)
 
Maybe it would help if we think of this in the way that God has revealed it.

From the beginning God reveals Himself as one.

He reveals His power and his majesty to His chosen people, making sure that they recognised that above all He is one.

This lesson has become a bedrock of the faith for the chosen people before God sends Immanuel.

Jesus, grows in wisdom and grace before God and Man, and His mother stores all the wonderous happenings that surrounded His birth. He starts His ministry with a miracle, and both His words and actions prepare his followers for his astonding claim that He is God’s Son. His followers already know that God is one, and Jesus affirms that He and God the Father are one.

Jesus is very clear that he comes to fulfil the law, and not to change it. He says that whoever sees Him sees the Father.
Jesus prays to the Father - the disciples hear the Father’s voice when Jesus is baptised. The Father and the Son are distinct, but are one God.

This is easier for them to accept than for us, for they are with Jesus on a daily basis, and can see and hear Him pray to the Father. They have their faith which tells them that God is one, and they experience the reality of two of the persons of the Blessed Trinity.

Finally, when Jesus knows that they are as ready as they are going to be, He teachs them about the Holy Spirit, as He promises to send the Holy Spirit to them.

The reality of the Trinity was taught to man through concrete experience. Even before they met Jesus, the disciples knew God the Father, who created all things. They learned to know Jesus, god’s son, by living with Him and talking with Him. They experienced that Holy Spirit when He decended on the in power on Pentacost.

What Jesus taught them in words they also experienced.

Read the openning chapters of the Gospel of John. Hear you learn that Jesus was the Word that God spoke in the beginning, through which all things were made. John clearly says “the Word was God”

God knows that without the absolute conviction that there is only one God, we would get it wrong.

It is also clear that God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, can interact. God the Father sends His Son to save us. Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to be with his followers until the end. The Father says “This is my Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Faced with such a reality Christians have written uncountable numbers of words! Sometimes they help us, sometimes they hurt our heads, and sometimes they just plain mess up.😦

I hope that it helps to go back to the actual experiences that have revealed God as having three persons while remaining one.

Trudy
 
That is a picture perfect contradiction. No wonder the writer warns us not to get too hung up on “intellect.”
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I’m sorry, but there is no possible way to read this teaching and conclude that it is consistent. It is contradictory.
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Is it not possible that what seems to be a contradiction to our limited, finite perspective may be resolved from an infinite, and eternal perspective? And since we are not infinite and eternal ourselves, is it not reasonable to conclude that we can never understand God? And if we can never understand God, is it not then up to God to reveal to us something about himself that can somehow approximate what he is, given out limitation?

As Saint Augustine said, we are created to know God and our hearts are restless until they rest in God. We have within us a capacity and a yearning for the etneral, but it is beyond us. That is why God must reveal himself to us if we are to have any hope of entering into his rest. We cannot grasp God as though he were something we can put in a box and possess.

God bless.
Ut
 
It is only a contradiction if equate the terms “person” and “nature.”

The terms are not synonyms.

Three persons. One nature. No contradiction.
 
JimG said:
It is only a contradiction if equate the terms “person” and “nature.”

The terms are not synonyms.

Three persons. One nature. No contradiction.
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The problem is in the identity of the terms, ie, “God is the Father”, not the terms “person” and “nature.”

It’s actually quite clear from that statement of the teaching. There is no possible way to represent that as if it were not contradictory.
 
pro_universal said:
The problem is in the identity of the terms, ie, “God is the Father”, not the terms “person” and “nature.”

It’s actually quite clear from that statement of the teaching. There is no possible way to represent that as if it were not contradictory.
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Of course there is. The doctrine of the Trinity does not state that God is three entities. It states rather that God is one entity–one nature–but three persons.
 
JimG said:
Of course there is. The doctrine of the Trinity does not state that God is three entities. It states rather that God is one entity–one nature–but three persons.
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Restating what it states doesn’t change the contradictory formulation. Here is the problem, again:
The Father is not the Son,
the Son is not the Holy Ghost,
the Holy Ghost is not the Father:
no one of the Persons is either of the others.
The Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Ghost is God.
There are not three Gods but one God.
Click to expand...
See how that doesn’t turn on the difference between person and nature? In fact, the word nature isn’t even used…but that’s an obvious contradiction anyway.
 
pro_universal said:
Restating what it states doesn’t change the contradictory formulation. Here is the problem, again:

See how that doesn’t turn on the difference between person and nature? In fact, the word nature isn’t even used…but that’s an obvious contradiction anyway.
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maybe you should read the whole article that distinguishes between nature and person?

Father, Word, Spirit do exactly the same thing because they are One. the Father’s Word and the Father’s Spirit are one with God because they share the same essence.
 
pro_universal said:
See how that doesn’t turn on the difference between person and nature? In fact, the word nature isn’t even used…but that’s an obvious contradiction anyway.
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In the statement of the doctrine used above, the terms Father, Son, and Holy Ghost refer to persons. The term God refers to nature or divine Being.
 
pro, Islam offers plenty of contradictions. So they must not bother you much.
 
Here is a short synopsis of the basics of the trinity. What we need to do is see if there is a person called The Father and is He called God? Then we need to do that for Jesus and the Holy Spirit…are there these persons and are they called God? And remember that ‘person/s’ is a loose term, this only correpsonds to how we can identify and relate to God, not that God is as His nature or essense a person.

Scriptural references.
All are called God:
Father – Phil 1:2
Jesus- Col 2:9
Holy Spirit- Acts 5: 3-4
But there is only one God- Isa 43:10
All create:
Father- Isa 64:8
Jesus- Col 1:15-17
Holy Spirit- Job 33:4……cf 1Cor 12:3
But the first verse in the book of Genesis is……“In the beginning, God created……”
All resurrect:
The Father resurrects the Son- Rom 6:4
The Holy Spirit resurrects the Son- Rom 8:11
The Son resurrects Himself – John 2:19-21
But Acts 10:40 says “…God raised Him up the third day…”
The three persons are the one God.

There is much much more, but while we need to take time to define our terms, we shouldn’t let that be our main hang up. The word Trinity does not occur but the teaching definately does.
 
JimG said:
In the statement of the doctrine used above, the terms Father, Son, and Holy Ghost refer to persons. The term God refers to nature or divine Being.
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scripture says the Father has a Word and a Spirit. What can the Word and Spirit be other than distinct “persons” who share the same essence because surely the Father’s Word and Spirit are One with God? i fail to see any contradiction here.
 
Northwind said:
Here is a short synopsis of the basics of the trinity. What we need to do is see if there is a person called The Father and is He called God? Then we need to do that for Jesus and the Holy Spirit…are there these persons and are they called God? And remember that ‘person/s’ is a loose term, this only correpsonds to how we can identify and relate to God, not that God is as His nature or essense a person.

Scriptural references.
All are called God:
Father – Phil 1:2
Jesus- Col 2:9
Holy Spirit- Acts 5: 3-4
But there is only one God- Isa 43:10
All create:
Father- Isa 64:8
Jesus- Col 1:15-17
Holy Spirit- Job 33:4……cf 1Cor 12:3
But the first verse in the book of Genesis is……“In the beginning, God created……”
All resurrect:
The Father resurrects the Son- Rom 6:4
The Holy Spirit resurrects the Son- Rom 8:11
The Son resurrects Himself – John 2:19-21
But Acts 10:40 says “…God raised Him up the third day…”
The three persons are the one God.

There is much much more, but while we need to take time to define our terms, we shouldn’t let that be our main hang up. The word Trinity does not occur but the teaching definately does.
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good post 👍
 
Northwind said:
And remember that ‘person/s’ is a loose term, this only correpsonds to how we can identify and relate to God, not that God is as His nature or essense a person.
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While I agree with your post, I have to say that philosophically speaking, the distinction between “person” and “nature” is rather precise.

“Person” answers the question: WHO is it?
“Nature” answers the question: WHAT is it?

I think that much confusion about the Trinity arises either by not using the terms at all, or by using them in an imprecise way.

Often, for example, someone will use the term “God” to refer both to the person and nature of God, most often when they are referring to God the Father. This can cause confusion.

The term “Jesus” is a special case, since it refers to one person who possesses TWO natures.
 
JimG said:
In the statement of the doctrine used above, the terms Father, Son, and Holy Ghost refer to persons. The term God refers to nature or divine Being.
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God also refers to Person.

Otherwise, it would be impossible to say “The Father is God”

or “The Son is God.”

The distinction between an undefined term (person, which mysteriously is defined just enough to say that it is distinct from nature but nothing else) and a defined one is not the issue. The issue is the full identity of God with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, while at the same time neither Father, Son, nor Holy Spirit being identical to each other.
 
pro_universal said:
God also refers to Person.

Otherwise, it would be impossible to say “The Father is God”

or “The Son is God.”

The distinction between an undefined term (person, which mysteriously is defined just enough to say that it is distinct from nature but nothing else) and a defined one is not the issue. The issue is the full identity of God with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, while at the same time neither Father, Son, nor Holy Spirit being identical to each other.
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Saying “The Father is God” means that the Person of the Father possesses the one nature of God. Saying the same of the Son identifies who he is with what he is.

So, if you say, “God also refers to Person,” I would agree, except that for a Christian, God refers to three Persons.

If I speak of three men, I am referring to three persons, each of whom possesses a human nature. But each man has a separate human nature. You have your human nature, I have mine. You think with your intellect and decide with your will, and I with mine.

But if I speak of Father, Son, and Spirt, I am referring to three persons, each of whom possesses the one same divine nature. There are not three divine intellects but one, not three divine wills but one.

If each person of the trinity possessed his own separate nature, there would indeed be three Gods. That is not what Christians believe, or what the doctrine states.
 
If each person of the trinity possessed his own separate nature, there would indeed be three Gods. That is not what Christians believe, or what the doctrine states.
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That’s true, but the doctrine also states that each is really distinct. And therein lies the problem.

Either each person is more than God, ie, a combination of something not-God and God so that each person is distinct from every other, or a “person” is no different from the God substance except that there is a word used to describe him. In that case, the only thing triune about God is the three names used to describe him.

Any solution to the contradiction will either conflate the persons, or divide the nature. This is because as is, it’s a contradictory teaching.
 
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