About the Trinity

[Loginus]

Not in my Isaiah As for the tinity being a man made concept, so what? How does that change anything. Keeping in mind that I’m a Jew and have absolutely no vested interest in defending the concept of trinity…

If God is infinite and beyond our comprehension, then any definition or concept we attach to Him (including calling him a “Him”) is going to be faulty. We just have to come up with the best ways of, not so much understanding exactly what God is (an impossible task for finite beings) but rather search for the best means of becoming aware of the ineffable mystery of God. Catholics believe that God provided them with the concept of the trinity in order to do this.

Any catholic please let me know if I am completely off base here

Yaa never understood why a christian could get so mad if you suggested the trinity suggests polytheism, or the possibility of no trinity etc.
Its all god in the end no? And he is supposed to be above our comprehension.

 

[JoshuaJ]

Not in my Isaiah As for the tinity being a man made concept, so what? How does that change anything. Keeping in mind that I’m a Jew and have absolutely no vested interest in defending the concept of trinity…

If God is infinite and beyond our comprehension, then any definition or concept we attach to Him (including calling him a “Him”) is going to be faulty. We just have to come up with the best ways of, not so much understanding exactly what God is (an impossible task for finite beings) but rather search for the best means of becoming aware of the ineffable mystery of God. Catholics believe that God provided them with the concept of the trinity in order to do this.

Any catholic please let me know if I am completely off base here

Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Jesus warns us of the “yeast of the Pharisees.” That’s why any doctrine should have us searching the scriptures to see if it is so.
I don’t believe God is totally beyond our comprehension, otherwise what would be the point of getting wisdom and understanding. He does give understanding to His chosen just as he explained the parables to his disciples who were his chosen.

 

[Valke2]

Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Jesus warns us of the “yeast of the Pharisees.” That’s why any doctrine should have us searching the scriptures to see if it is so.
I don’t believe God is totally beyond our comprehension, otherwise what would be the point of getting wisdom and understanding. He does give understanding to His chosen just as he explained the parables to his disciples who were his chosen.

I’ll be happy to engage in battling Isaiahs on another thread. As for understanding God, do you really think even the disciples of Jesus fully understood him? I can’t even fully understand my wife, and I’ve been with her a long longer than Peter was with Jesus.

 

[JoshuaJ]

I’ll be happy to engage in battling Isaiahs on another thread. As for understanding God, do you really think even the disciples of Jesus fully understood him? I can’t even fully understand my wife, and I’ve been with her a long longer than Peter was with Jesus.

Isaiah 9:6 speaks for itself. There is no need to battle over it. Jesus said in Matthew 13:11 that it was given unto them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. What was given and to whom? Understanding was given to those He chose to give it to.

 

[jnderose]

There needs to be more discussion here and less argument. Lets debate not hate.

 

[rtconstant]

I’ll try to see if I can give a description Long. OK, from what I’ve read you seem to understand the Hindu trinity so I’ll try to work from that.

Within the Hindu trinity (Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma) we have three distinct natures that are combined in the being of Godhead. When each of those natures work together the full power of the Godhead can be seen. These three natures serve specific purpose in the function of the Universe. Brahma is the creative force, while Vishnu maintains and sets the order of creation which will ultimately lead to Shiva who will destroy the creation so that creation can start again. So we see within the Hindu trinity that a cycle of natural order is sustained.

In the Chrisitan Trinity the order of the persons of the Trinity are not based on the natural cycle. As such there are no natural “oppositions”. So while Shiva may destroy the work of Brahma; The Son would never destroy the work of the Father and indeed the work of The Father is continued by The Son.

So if we take the life of a man by the Hindu Trinity he would be created by Brahma, his destiny would be set by Vishnu and his doom would be found in Shiva. The Hindu Trinity is strongly linked too the physical universe even though it is understood that reality exists beyond the physical.

The Christian Trinity is based purely on the creative force. All members of the Trinity build upon the work of the other in the creative process. The process though is never ending. So while in the Hindu religion one travels through a cycle of death and rebirth. In the Christian cosmology one simply continues to another creative state. Energy changes form but is always still energy. The members of the Christian Trinity designate the respective roles within that creative process.

I don’t know if that helps you any, I realize that’s its simplistic but it can be kind of difficult to explain a concept from within someone elses perception.

 

[Valke2]

Isaiah 9:6 speaks for itself. There is no need to battle over it. Jesus said in Matthew 13:11 that it was given unto them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. What was given and to whom? Understanding was given to those He chose to give it to.

Sez you. Every single member of my shul says differnt.

 

[tequilamac]

Sez you. Every single member of my shul says differnt.

Huh?

 

[JimG]

Huh?

It’s Yiddish, I think.

 

[Valke2]

Huh?

shul = synagouge

 

[tequilamac]

shul = synagouge

Ah. thank you. And synagouge=synagogue? correct?

 

[Valke2]

Ah. thank you. And synagouge=synagogue? correct?

correct.

 

[tequilamac]

correct.

Ah thanks Valke. For a moment I feared I was back on the Mormon thread with reformed reformed Egyptian. I see now that it was merely a typo. Always nice when we agree.

 

[tequilamac]

I’ll be happy to engage in battling Isaiahs on another thread. As for understanding God, do you really think even the disciples of Jesus fully understood him? I can’t even fully understand my wife, and I’ve been with her a long longer than Peter was with Jesus.

What a great post!. And no I don’t think the disciples fully understood Jesus any more than I understand my husband and I have been married 22 years. Jesus’ public ministry was only three years! In fact there are many references to the disciples confusion in the New Testament.

 

[inJESUS]

Valke2, how do you interpret the Isaiah passage in question?

 

[tequilamac]

Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Jesus warns us of the “yeast of the Pharisees.” That’s why any doctrine should have us searching the scriptures to see if it is so.
I don’t believe God is totally beyond our comprehension, otherwise what would be the point of getting wisdom and understanding. He does give understanding to His chosen just as he explained the parables to his disciples who were his chosen.

What a wonderful misinterpretation of Scripture. Which has lead to many proven heresies in the Church. More importantly your line of thinking is simply unacceptable to the Church and especially to the Jews.

But as far as wanting to be as wise and understanding as God, hey look another Adam and Eve story unfolds before our very eyes. Especially for the Jews. For you see, if Joshua here continues, he will be as God, with his eyes fully open because God is not incomprehensible to Joshua. He can comprehend him fully and he is as intelligent as God which makes Joshua’s line of thinking…hmmmm… what did we call that?

 

[Valke2]

New thread on Isaiah 9:6 called “Isaiah 9:6 - Jesus free?”

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

What a wonderful misinterpretation of Scripture. Which has lead to many proven heresies in the Church. More importantly your line of thinking is simply unacceptable to the Church and especially to the Jews.

But as far as wanting to be as wise and understanding as God, hey look another Adam and Eve story unfolds before our very eyes. Especially for the Jews. For you see, if Joshua here continues, he will be as God, with his eyes fully open because God is not incomprehensible to Joshua. He can comprehend him fully and he is as intelligent as God which makes Joshua’s line of thinking…hmmmm… what did we call that?

That’s not fair tequilamac.

While I may not agree with Joshua on all accounts here, I don’t think that Joshua is saying that God is fully comprehensible either. He’s only saying that some things about God can be understood in human/natural terms even if the fullness of God’s mystery remains elusive.

That’s what I was saying too back in the other thread where you essentially nailed me to the wall for claiming to understand something about God’s Triune nature.

The whole point of me noting that God could not sin had nothing to do with trying to prove that God was not omnipotent. The whole point of me noting that God could not sin was that God’s very essense can seen as contradictory from purely logical point of view.

In other words, God is not limited by his limits.

This isn’t a paradox. This is a contradiction. And God is indeed a living contradiction when we try to place him within the confines of human logic.

And yet we fully believe this to be true regardless of what human logic might say to the contrary.

You know that. I know that. And so does anybody else who understands God.

Consequently, human logic cannot not even prove itself true. In other words, claiming that logic can validate all things is refuted by the fact that logic cannot even validate itself. More to the point, when people are using logic, they are really using their faith in their logic.

But notwithstanding that God cannot be fully comprehended according to human logic, this does not imply that basic aspect’s of God’s nature cannot be understood in human terms.

We know that God is Spirit.
We know that God is love.
We know that God was incarnate and born of the Virgin.
And we know our redeemer lives.

continued…

 

[Valke2]

That’s what I was saying too back in the other thread where you essentially nailed me to the wall for claiming to understand something about God’s Triune nature. continued…

the wall? Come on. You know you wanted to say it.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

…continued

I’m going to stress what Romans 1:20 says over and over again…

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

This same thought can be found detailed in our Catholic Scriptures, particularly noted in Wisdom 13:1-9…

Anyone who does not know God is simply foolish. Such people look at the good things around them and still fail to see the living God. They have studied the things he made, but they have not recognized the one who made them.

Instead, they suppose that the gods who rule the world are fire or wind or storm of the circling stars or rushing water or the heavenly bodies. People were so delighted with the beauty of these things that they thought they must be gods, but they should have realized that these things have a master and that he is much greater than all of them, for he is the creator of beauty, and he created them.

Since people are amazed at the power of these things, and how they behave, they ought to learn from them that their maker is far more powerful. When we are learning about how vast and beautiful the creation is, we are learning about the Creator at the same time.

But maybe we are too harsh with these people. After all, they may have really wanted to find God, but couldn’t. Surrounded by God’s works, they keep on looking at them, until they are finally convinced that because the things they see are so beautiful, they must be gods.

But still, these people really have no excuse.

If they had enough intelligence to speculate about the nature of the universe, why did they never find the Lord of all things?

See the similarity between Romans 1:20 and Wisdom 13:1-9?

We don’t beleive in God because he is incomprehensible.

We believe in God because there are things that are comprehensible about him-- and we have no reason to believe that the things we cannot comprehend invalidate the things we can comprehend.

This is the exact kind of faithful reasoning that St. Peter used when he confessed that Jesus was the Holy One of God– and that we really had to eat his body in blood in order to have life in us.

Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”

See how Peter said we believe and know something about God?

More to the point, you seem to be claiming that we believe in God because he cannot be understood-- and that’s simply not true.

Even the Deist will tell you that God is perfectly logical within the limits of our human reason. In others words, even though they reject divine revelation, they do beleive that it’s quite reasonable to have faith in God. And when a contradiction in God’s nature is revealed by logic, this doesn’t reveal a limit to God. It only reveal the limits of our finite human logic.

Faith takes over at this point.

But faith doesn’t take over because we cannot understand God. Faith takes over because what we can understand about God is logical, and it’s reasonable to continue to believe that these apparent contradictions will be revealed as non-contradictory when God does reveal the fullness of his divine nature in the beautific vision.

Faith and reason go hand in hand. You cannot have one without the other.

So please stop blasting us for claiming to know somethng about God. Everytime you blast us for doing this, you yourself are guilty of the same thing– because you claim to know something about God whenever you claim he is incomprehensible.