About to become an Atheist PLEASE HELP!

[Jehannette]

Thank you Jehannette. I had never heard of weak/negative atheism - or agnostic atheism. How does it differ from agnisticism?
As you can tell, I am not knowledgeable in this area.

Agnosticism is a claim about knowledge (hence, the root “gnostic”); atheism is a claim about belief (hence, the root “theism”). The “a” prefix is a negation, as in atypical, or “not typical.” The claim can either be “positive” (“I know that something does not exist”) or “negative” (“I do not know if something does exist”).

 

[atheistgirl]

My belief in God has never been the result of “feeling” – not even as a young child. I was taught about God by my parents, but at a very young age believed on my own through reasoning. When I first learned there were people who didn’t believe there was a god, I couldn’t imagine how they could rationally come to that decision. Still don’t. Used to wish I could talk to one so they could give me their line of reasoning.

You said here you were a ‘‘card carrying atheist’’

So you reasoned as a young child for God’s existence.

Then reasoned His non existence or lack of evidence for Him as an atheist.

Then reasoned yourself back into belief?



Sarah x

 

[Jehannette]

And the rest of Dawkins quote says this:

Others have done a far better job of putting forward explanations as to what actually happened - Dawkin’s doesn’t try to explain any of it, but just observes it’s high level of improbability, given that we know the earth would have been destroyed if such an event like the sun dancing in the sky and falling towards earth, had actually happened.

Dawkins’ fundamental error is making claims about the Miracle of the Sun which no believer has ever made on its behalf, that is, that the physical sun at the center of our solar system underwent any physical transformations of any kind. All that we know is what has been told to us. From the Portuguese newspaper O Século:

In the astonished eyes of these people, whose attitude takes us back to Biblical times, and who, white faced with shock, with their heads uncovered, face the blue sky: the sun has trembled, the sun has made sudden movements that were outside all cosmic laws—the sun has “danced”, according to the typical expression of the country people.

Covered with dust on the running board of the bus from Torres Novas, an old man recites the Creed, from beginning to end. I ask who it is and they tell me it is João Maria Amado de Melo Ramalho da Cunha Vasconcelo. I see him later talking to those around him, who still have their hats on, begging them, strongly, to take them off in the presence of such an extraordinary demonstration of the existence of God. Identical scenes are repeated in other places and a woman shouts, bathed in tears and almost suffocated:

–What a shame! There are still men who don’t take off their hats in the presence of such a miracle!

And next they ask each other if they have seen or not seen. Most confess that they have seen the dancing of the sun; others, however, declare they have seen the smiling face of the Virgin herself. They swear that the sun spun about itself like a ring of fireworks, that it came down almost to the point of burning the Earth with its rays.

Some say that they saw it change color.

It is about three in the afternoon.

The sky is covered with clouds and the sun follows its path with its normal brightness and no one dares to look at it directly. And what about the little shepherds? Lucia, “she who speaks with the Virgin,” tells everyone, with theatrical gestures, being held by a man who carries her from group to group, the the war will end and that our soldiers will come back.

This news, however, does not increase the joy of those who are listening. The heavenly sign was everything. There is an intense curiosity to see the two little girls with their garlands of flowers. There are some who try to kiss the hands of the “little saints”, one of whom, Jacinta, looks more like she is going to faint than to dance. That which they were all looking for—the sign from Heaven—has been enough to satisfy them and make them convinced of their faith.

The people start to leave quickly. Without problems, without any disorder, without the need of any police. The pilgrims who leave more quickly are those who arrived earlier. They walk barefoot with their shoes on their heads or hanging on sticks. They are leaving with their soul satisfied to spread the good news to the villages they left. And what about the priests? Some came to this place, smiling, spending more time with the curious spectators than with the pilgrims who were anxious to see a miracle. Maybe one or another couldn’t hide the satisfaction which is so hard to hide on the faces of those who triumph.

Now it is up to those who are qualified to give their opinion on the strange dancing of the sun that today, in Fátima, caused hosannas to explode from the hearts of the faithful and caused astonishment —according to reliable sources—even in free thinkers and other people without religious beliefs who came to this now famous place.

The way you’ve phrased it sounds a bit like the ‘‘fake it until you make it’’ maxim.

Something like, Have faith, and once you’ve adjusted your world view enough, suddenly you’ll start ‘‘seeing’’ all these ‘‘proofs’’ that were eluding you.

It doesn’t work like that for me I’m afraid. Were I to throw my lot in behind a belief system or a particular Deity, I’d sure as heck want evidence this Deity was there in the first place.

Sarah x

Not at all; it’s just the recognition that the One and Triune God, a Perfect Being, is the one who “sets the rules,” and not us. You’ve said earlier that you’d believe if an adult amputee had his/her limb fully restored, and we predict that someday a much more greater miracle will occur, “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth” (CCC, 1038), which means that everyone who has ever been cremated, liquefied (the latest method), consumed by wild beasts, or “lost” in the depths of the sea, will come forth, their bodies fully reassembled to either everlasting bliss or to everlasting despair. On that Day, skepticism will be no more.

Until then, we are required to have faith, or as our Lord Jesus Christ said, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” (John 20:29) For “without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” (Hebrews 11:6) God is not willing to “come into the lab” and “sit for an experiment” while researchers investigate who He is while drinking their coffee and eating their donuts. The reasons for this should be clear; such is not to His glory, which is why He has chosen not to reveal Himself to we, His creation, in that manner. Until then, “if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.” (2 Corinthians 4:3) Until the Last Day, “we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.” (1 Corinthians 13:12)

So, we predict that someday everyone, without exception, will know the Truth.

 

[atheistgirl]

My belief in God has never been the result of “feeling” – not even as a young child.

That’s not what I was saying - you said in your post

Felt there must be more than that underlying your claim to be atheist

.

That’s the ‘‘feeling’’ I was responding to in my post when I said there is nothing to read into my atheism or project onto it. It’s simply a simply position on a single issue - no evidence for the existence of Deity.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

Dawkins’ fundamental error is making claims about the Miracle of the Sun which no believer has ever made on its behalf, that is, that the physical sun at the center of our solar system underwent any physical transformations of any kind. All that we know is what has been told to us. From the Portuguese newspaper O Século:

And you highlight the claim it made sudden movements that were outside all cosmic laws. I’ve read reports of it ‘‘dancing’’ and others claiming it appeared to rush towards the earth.

All or any of which would have had a devestating effect on the earth, which it didn’t and all of which would have been observable from the very observatories trained on the skies to precicely discern such things, including the Vatican’s own, and none of which reported anything remotely unusual.

We have the science to establish if such a thing happened. The Observatories reported nothing. That’s good enough for me.

Not at all; it’s just the recognition that the One and Triune God, a Perfect Being, is the one who “sets the rules,” and not us. You’ve said earlier that you’d believe if an adult amputee had his/her limb fully restored, and we predict that someday a much more greater miracle will occur, “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth” (CCC, 1038), which means that everyone who has ever been cremated, liquefied (the latest method), consumed by wild beasts, or “lost” in the depths of the sea, will come forth, their bodies fully reassembled to either everlasting bliss or to everlasting despair. On that Day, skepticism will be no more.

I can’t recognize a Being I have no evidence for.

As for the rest of the post - I’ve discussed here before the claims from the Gospels that the dead arose and marched into the city and greeted loved ones. Not a single historian or commentator of the times bothered to record such an extrodinary event. The best explanation given was it was a back water city of no note, hence no interest. Which is palpably silly to me - if hundreds of graves burst open and the dead went into the city and greeted their loved ones, someone, somewhere, outside of the Gospel account, would have recorded that and the authorities would have been informed. If for no other reason than to get taxes of the guys who came back!!! And of course we’re not told what happened to them - did they re-die, live a happy life thereafter, were the once widows now considered married again? What about the ones who were executed as criminals, did the authorities rearrest them and kill them again? Nope - not a word about these things. Just, tons of dead people got out of the graves and went to see their loved ones

Until then, we are required to have faith, or as our Lord Jesus Christ said, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” (John 20:29) For “without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” (Hebrews 11:6) God is not willing to “come into the lab” and “sit for an experiment” while researchers investigate who He is while drinking their coffee and eating their donuts. The reasons for this should be clear; such is not to His glory, which is why He has chosen not to reveal Himself to we, His creation, in that manner. Until then, “if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.” (2 Corinthians 4:3) Until the Last Day, “we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.” (1 Corinthians 13:12)

Oh well.

I guess I’m perishing in that case.

I can’t be required to have faith in a Being I do not see the slightest bit of evidence for the claims of their existence, never mind the various and mixed claims of the believers who claim to know just what this Deity wants.

Sarah x

 

[NonServiam]

You’re rejecting belief in something that has been accepted by the huge majority of humanity across the ages - belief in God/gods.

Darn right, just like I don’t accept lots of other things believed by the majority of humanity across the ages: that spirits exist, that the world is a flat disk, that there are people capable of performing supernatural magic, that curses and “the evil eye” are possible, that “good luck charms” have an effect on the world, that “bleeding” patients with leeches can help cure their illness, etc., etc., etc.

That lots of people hold a belief doesn’t mean that it’s even slightly more likely to be true.

And that’s without even considering that “belief in God/gods” isn’t one single claim that has been believed by a majority of people, but is rather thousands and thousands of smaller claims (“Belief in Thor,” “Belief is Zeus,” “Belief in Apollo,” “Belief in the God defined by Catholicism,” “Belief in the God defined by Calvinism,” “Belief in the God defined by Lutheranism,” etc., etc., etc.) – thousand and thousands of mutually exclusive claims. They can’t all be right, but they can all be wrong.

 

[Jehannette]

And you highlight the claim it made sudden movements that were outside all cosmic laws. I’ve read reports of it ‘‘dancing’’ and others claiming it appeared to rush towards the earth.

All or any of which would have had a devestating effect on the earth, which it didn’t and all of which would have been observable from the very observatories trained on the skies to precicely discern such things, including the Vatican’s own, and none of which reported anything remotely unusual.

The physical sun at the center of our solar system did not move, and no one has ever claimed that it did, other than skeptics who try to dismiss the claims of believers. Your and Dawkins’ argument is a straw man.

We have the science to establish if such a thing happened. The Observatories reported nothing. That’s good enough for me.

“Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” The observatories were not there that day. If a plane crashes on approach to an airport, but such is not observed by an astronomical observatory, is such “proof” that the plane never crashed?

I can’t recognize a Being I have no evidence for.

As for the rest of the post - I’ve discussed here before the claims from the Gospels that the dead arose and marched into the city and greeted loved ones. Not a single historian or commentator of the times bothered to record such an extrodinary event. The best explanation given was it was a back water city of no note, hence no interest. Which is palpably silly to me - if hundreds of graves burst open and the dead went into the city and greeted their loved ones, someone, somewhere, outside of the Gospel account, would have recorded that and the authorities would have been informed. If for no other reason than to get taxes of the guys who came back!!! And of course we’re not told what happened to them - did they re-die, live a happy life thereafter, were the once widows now considered married again? What about the ones who were executed as criminals, did the authorities rearrest them and kill them again? Nope - not a word about these things. Just, tons of dead people got out of the graves and went to see their loved ones

Matthew uses the adjective “many bodies”; he does not use the word “hundreds.” You are correct that “Not a single historian or commentator of the times bothered to record such an extraordinary event,” because, in fact, no historians of that time who were recording anything. Period. To my knowledge, Josephus and Tacitus were the only two major historians of that time period. Josephus was born in 37 AD and Tacitus was born 56 AD. If I am missing someone, please let me know! We may only be talking about a few dozen individuals here, and even then, their visitations were not to the city at large but only privately to individuals.

 

[NoelleRose]

Atheistgirl,

With respectful curiosity, I wonder why, as an atheist, you spend so much time on a CATHOLIC website. I can’t help but wonder if there is a part of you you have yet to fully (or at all) consciously discover that needs to be here. Perhaps you’re being led? Why not just be an atheist and get on with it, so to speak? Why spend hours and hours on this website?

Most respectfully,
NoelleRose

 

[NonServiam]

Why not just be an atheist and get on with it, so to speak? Why spend hours and hours on this website?

As an atheist who has spent many hours – probably days or weeks, at this point – on forums of websites for a variety of religions, I can say that, for me, talking about religions and having these kinds of debates is something I find fun, as a matter of personal entertainment.

The underhanded implication that “Gee, maybe you talk about religion so much because deep down you know there’s a God and you want to be religious!” is about as uncharitable as implications get.

 

[NonServiam]

You are correct that “Not a single historian or commentator of the times bothered to record such an extraordinary event [of a zombie invasion],” because, in fact, no historians of that time who were recording anything. Period.

Regardless of whether any historians were recording anything at that particular time, a zombie invasion like that would have created quite the stir and would have at the very least been written down by a handful of people eventually.

You’re acting like the mere fact that we might not have a full picture of a certain historical period means that “anything goes”: that tales of magic and the supernatural suddenly become more viable, just because our knowledge of these periods is a little less full.

 

[Jehannette]

Regardless of whether any historians were recording anything at that particular time, a zombie invasion like that would have created quite the stir and would have at the very least been written down by a handful of people eventually.

You’re acting like the mere fact that we might not have a full picture of a certain historical period means that “anything goes”: that tales of magic and the supernatural suddenly become more viable, just because our knowledge of these periods is a little less full.

You can look-up the word “many” in Merriam-Webster:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/many

The word means “consisting of or amounting to a large but indefinite number.” He “worked for many years.” Again, “many” does not necessarily imply “hundreds” or even “dozens.”

 

[atheistgirl]

Atheistgirl,

With respectful curiosity, I wonder why, as an atheist, you spend so much time on a CATHOLIC website. I can’t help but wonder if there is a part of you you have yet to fully (or at all) consciously discover that needs to be here. Perhaps you’re being led? Why not just be an atheist and get on with it, so to speak? Why spend hours and hours on this website?

Most respectfully,
NoelleRose

This is one of 4 screens open on which I’m having conversations with people and catching up on posts.

The topics are interesting, and I like to get my point of view across in the threads I’ve participated in.

I’ve had some very interesting and rewarding PM exchanges too - here, and elsewhere.

I am an atheist, and I do get on with it - as you put it.

And part of that is expressing my views on topics as I’ve done here, and reading threads and asking questions to get a better understanding of Catholicism.

I’ve taken the same approach on other religious fora, including non Christian, and have some very interesting and worthwhile conversations there with people too.

It’s helped me over the past 18 months or so to get a better understanding of what faith means to people, and how it affects them.

Catholicism is only one small part of the current journey I’ve undertaken to explore religion and people of faith for my own interest.

Where better to get an idea of what Catholics believe and why, than on a well run, informative, Catholic forum?

Not all fora take the same approach or are as welcoming of divergent voices - when I corrected someones assertion that Catholics worshipped Mary and Statues of Saints, made on a Protestant site I was really enjoying, I was banned from there with a message from the admin saying I was banned because I was a ‘‘Papist’’ pretending to be an atheist, to troll their board

I said earlier somewhere here, I do feel my time here is more or less coming to an end. I’ve got a pretty good understanding of what Catholics believe and why, and I’ve got some excellent reference material backed entirely by the Church.

But I keep getting sidetracked into interesting conversations I want to chime in with

Now just so you won’t be offended after reading this and then noting I’ve suddenly disappeared - I’m about to get into one and possibly two weeks of a world of crazy so it’s not that I won’t be around here much, I won’t be around here at all

Just so you know it was nothing you said

But, I’m sure I’ll be back - not because I’m looking for anything, or being led, because I’m not, I can tell you for sure, but because as religious fora go, this one has some really great and very interesting discussions.

That’s all.

Sarah x

 

[atheistgirl]

The physical sun at the center of our solar system did not move, and no one has ever claimed that it did, other than skeptics who try to dismiss the claims of believers. Your and Dawkins’ argument is a straw man.

The very article you linked to stated the sun made sudden movements and danced

Eye witness accounts I read claimed the sun appeared to rush towards the earth, then suddenly stop

It’s irrelevant - the observatories noted nothing - so whatever it was these people imagined they saw, was just that, imagined, as far as I’m concerned, and I’ve linked elsewhere on much more probable explanations atmospherically as to what was most likey happening. These people were all succeptable to expecting ‘‘something’’ to happen, so were prone to finding something that confirmed their expectations.

You were quite wrong in your claim that the details of the miracle were known before hand.

They weren’t.

All anyone was told, is there would be a miracle.

No one was told ahead of time, what that miracle was going to be.

but such is not observed by an astronomical observatory, is such “proof” that the plane never crashed?

Now I think you know better than that.

There would be wreckage, dead bodies, radar tracking, and the black box all to confirm.

If 70,000 people say they saw a plane crash, no plane is missing, no radar tracking confirms loss of contact, and no black box is activated, a search of the site reveals nothing, and nobody reports a relative on a flight that didn’t arrive, it’s safe to say whatever it was these people say they think they saw, it wasn’t a plane crashing.

We may only be talking about a few dozen individuals here, and even then, their visitations were not to the city at large but only privately to individuals.

Pretty much the same approach I was given earlier.

It just doesn’t wash.

Why were the stories not told and passed on so the historians and recorders outside of the Gospels could note they were informed of claims of the dead coming back to the city and visiting loved ones?

Just doesn’t wash for me I’m afraid.

Sarah x

 

[animalis]

“Filial trust is tested - it proves itself - in tribulation.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2734) Which apparently is the experience you describe, and it is an experience that many others have gone through (or else why would the Church write this after so many years?).

The Catechism also says, “In the first place, we ought to be astonished by this fact: when we praise God or give him thanks for his benefits in general, we are not particularly concerned whether or not our prayer is acceptable to him. On the other hand, we demand to see the results of our petitions. What is the image of God that motivates our prayer: an instrument to be used? or the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?” (CCC 2735) If you do not praise God, this indicates you need purification in how you see him and in that recieve what you are praying, for he is a loving Father.

St. Augustine says, “God wills that our desire should be exercised in prayer, that we may be able to receive what he is prepared to give.” (CCC 2737)

So, “do not be troubled if you do not immediately receive from God what you ask him; for he desires to do something even greater for you, while you **cling **to him in prayer.” (CCC 2737) Like a child, for Jesus said, “Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Mt 18:3)

 

[atheistgirl]

to him in prayer."

This is how I understand most peoples approach to unanswered prayer - the prayer isn’t unanswered, it’s answered in a way we don’t understand, it’s not good for us whatever it was we asked for, and God knows what’s best, or it’ll be answered later at a better time

In fact just about anything, other than just call it what it is - you prayed for something, and you didn’t have your prayers answered, and you might have to wonder just why that might be.

I’ll mention again Madeleine McCann - who’s been missing for years and her family, devout Catholics, have had mass and vigils on a daily and nightly basis since for her safe return. The Pope prayed for her. Masses have been offered all over the world.

And nothing.

What possible reason could an all loving, all powerful all caring personal God have to allow this desperate couples agony to continue?

No ones free will has been interfered with. The person who did this wasn’t stopped so they exercised their free will to do bad.

Madeleine, an innocent 3 year old child at the time, was his/her victim.

Now, 5 years later, when badness has been allowed to run free, why not end this familys suffering and either find their child’s body so they can bury her with dignity, or return her alive so they can start rebuilding their lives?

Have they not suffered enough?

Yet the prayers of the whole world go unanswered

And I have no doubt if and when she’s found, claims will go up all over that God has answered this familys prayers.

After putting them through unimaginable agony for 5 years and more

If someone knew where she was, and failed to tell the civic authorities, they would be in court and most likey get prison time.

Yet God does know where she is - He’s all knowing - and yet, the agony and suffering of her family, and herself if she’s alive, continues

To me, none of this is credible in the presence of an all loving, caring, kind, God who apparently has the very hairs on our head counted, sorry.

Sarah x

 

[Jehannette]

The very article you linked to stated the sun made sudden movements and danced

Eye witness accounts I read claimed the sun appeared to rush towards the earth, then suddenly stop

It’s irrelevant - the observatories noted nothing - so whatever it was these people imagined they saw, was just that, imagined, as far as I’m concerned, and I’ve linked elsewhere on much more probable explanations atmospherically as to what was most likey happening. These people were all succeptable to expecting ‘‘something’’ to happen, so were prone to finding something that confirmed their expectations.

Problem is, of course, the distant witnesses who, by their own testimony, were not expecting anything to happen. One must wonder why the atmosphere was behaving so erratically over Fatima and no where else in the World, before or since!

You were quite wrong in your claim that the details of the miracle were known before hand.

They weren’t.

I never claimed otherwise. Dawkins is wrong when he says that “they had been persuaded to stare at the sun, which can’t have done much for the eyesight.” Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett who, unlike Dawkins, was there that day stated, “turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused…” The witnesses were not staring into the sun.

All anyone was told, is there would be a miracle.

No one was told ahead of time, what that miracle was going to be.

Agreed.

Now I think you know better than that.

There would be wreckage, dead bodies, radar tracking, and the black box all to confirm.

If 70,000 people say they saw a plane crash, no plane is missing, no radar tracking confirms loss of contact, and no black box is activated, a search of the site reveals nothing, and nobody reports a relative on a flight that didn’t arrive, it’s safe to say whatever it was these people say they think they saw, it wasn’t a plane crashing.

Unless, of course, the plane went down into an ocean (Amelia Earhart’s birthday was yesterday), but having said that, I agree with your analysis. As for the Miracle of the Sun, just because the physical sun was behaving normally that day throughout the entire World save Fatima does not prove that nothing was going on in the skies above Fatima.

Pretty much the same approach I was given earlier.

It just doesn’t wash.

Why were the stories not told and passed on so the historians and recorders outside of the Gospels could note they were informed of claims of the dead coming back to the city and visiting loved ones?

Just doesn’t wash for me I’m afraid.

Sarah x

Historians recorded almost nothing about the life of Christ. What does that prove? It is enough for me that Saint Matthew recorded the event for it to be true. You can claim that the Gospels were not historical, but then again, there are four of them.

 

[Lochias]

This is how I understand most peoples approach to unanswered prayer - the prayer isn’t unanswered, it’s answered in a way we don’t understand, it’s not good for us whatever it was we asked for, and God knows what’s best, or it’ll be answered later at a better time

In fact just about anything, other than just call it what it is - you prayed for something, and you didn’t have your prayers answered, and you might have to wonder just why that might be.

I’ll mention again Madeleine McCann - who’s been missing for years and her family, devout Catholics, have had mass and vigils on a daily and nightly basis since for her safe return. The Pope prayed for her. Masses have been offered all over the world.

And nothing.

What possible reason could an all loving, all powerful all caring personal God have to allow this desperate couples agony to continue?

No ones free will has been interfered with. The person who did this wasn’t stopped so they exercised their free will to do bad.

Madeleine, an innocent 3 year old child at the time, was his/her victim.

Now, 5 years later, when badness has been allowed to run free, why not end this familys suffering and either find their child’s body so they can bury her with dignity, or return her alive so they can start rebuilding their lives?

Have they not suffered enough?

Yet the prayers of the whole world go unanswered

And I have no doubt if and when she’s found, claims will go up all over that God has answered this familys prayers.

After putting them through unimaginable agony for 5 years and more

If someone knew where she was, and failed to tell the civic authorities, they would be in court and most likey get prison time.

Yet God does know where she is - He’s all knowing - and yet, the agony and suffering of her family, and herself if she’s alive, continues

To me, none of this is credible in the presence of an all loving, caring, kind, God who apparently has the very hairs on our head counted, sorry.

Sarah x

The aim of life isn’t to avoid suffering. If we believe in God, pray, and do not get the answer we want, it is an exercise of our faith to trust that God knows better than we do.

I trust God to know the big picture, and know that more than one family’s suffering, however painful, however heart-rending and horrible, may be at stake. I know that I may have to show this kind of faith someday.

It sounds cold, but that is where peace comes from; peace, the eternal and deeper expression of happiness. You stated up thread that your happiness will come from the love you have experienced that is inside you and part of you, no matter what, that if a personal disaster like this were to befall you, you would bounce back stronger than before. Do you think that God doesn’t also believe this? Do you think that He doesn’t see a bigger picture than you, if you, who claim to be without God, can come to the love-filled conclusions that you have?

Do you think that you “have it right” and they don’t? If so, why?

 

[paul_c]

This is how I understand most peoples approach to unanswered prayer - the prayer isn’t unanswered, it’s answered in a way we don’t understand, it’s not good for us whatever it was we asked for, and God knows what’s best, or it’ll be answered later at a better time

In fact just about anything, other than just call it what it is - you prayed for something, and you didn’t have your prayers answered, and you might have to wonder just why that might be.

I’ll mention again Madeleine McCann - who’s been missing for years and her family, devout Catholics, have had mass and vigils on a daily and nightly basis since for her safe return. The Pope prayed for her. Masses have been offered all over the world.

And nothing.

What possible reason could an all loving, all powerful all caring personal God have to allow this desperate couples agony to continue?

No ones free will has been interfered with. The person who did this wasn’t stopped so they exercised their free will to do bad.

Madeleine, an innocent 3 year old child at the time, was his/her victim.

Now, 5 years later, when badness has been allowed to run free, why not end this familys suffering and either find their child’s body so they can bury her with dignity, or return her alive so they can start rebuilding their lives?

Have they not suffered enough?

Yet the prayers of the whole world go unanswered

And I have no doubt if and when she’s found, claims will go up all over that God has answered this familys prayers.

After putting them through unimaginable agony for 5 years and more

If someone knew where she was, and failed to tell the civic authorities, they would be in court and most likey get prison time.

Yet God does know where she is - He’s all knowing - and yet, the agony and suffering of her family, and herself if she’s alive, continues

To me, none of this is credible in the presence of an all loving, caring, kind, God who apparently has the very hairs on our head counted, sorry.

Sarah x

In its essence, this is just an extension of the question, “Why does God allow evil in the world?” The answer is pretty straight forward - because he wants man to have free will. When there is true free will, some will chose to do something opposed to God’s will. This is the definition of evil.

So why allow free will, if it leads to pain and suffering? Well. that answer is also pretty straight forward - if you didn’t have free will, you wouldn’t be an autonomous being- instead you would be a robot, incapable of making a real decision.

So why aren’t all prayers granted? Well, that would be just bad parenting by the heavenly Father. Afterall, what happens to human children whose parents give them everything they want? Don’t they inevitably become spoiled and dependent? What about the children whose parents make them earn what they get? Don’t those children on average grow to be prosperous, self reliant individuals.

There’s another factor here as well. God’s priority is not for peoples’ comfort but for people to learn to love, which means to do things for others without expecting anything in return. To learn to love perfectly is to become like God, who provides everything for us despite the fact we have nothing to offer him in return. Like a good parent, God challenges us by putting us in different situations, and from those challenges we learn to love. Take the example you offer - the family of the McCann’s. Within their grief, they are demonstrating great love and many others have demonstrated love toward them. As you put it, people over the whole world have turned to prayer because of the loss of the young child. This is not insignificant. God did not create the loss of this child. That was most likely caused by some ones’ free choice to do evil. But God in his greatness is able to create opportunities to love even in the worst of circumstances.

 

[NoelleRose]

This is one of 4 screens open on which I’m having conversations with people and catching up on posts.

The topics are interesting, and I like to get my point of view across in the threads I’ve participated in.

I’ve had some very interesting and rewarding PM exchanges too - here, and elsewhere.

I am an atheist, and I do get on with it - as you put it.

And part of that is expressing my views on topics as I’ve done here, and reading threads and asking questions to get a better understanding of Catholicism.

I’ve taken the same approach on other religious fora, including non Christian, and have some very interesting and worthwhile conversations there with people too.

It’s helped me over the past 18 months or so to get a better understanding of what faith means to people, and how it affects them.

Catholicism is only one small part of the current journey I’ve undertaken to explore religion and people of faith for my own interest.

Where better to get an idea of what Catholics believe and why, than on a well run, informative, Catholic forum?

Not all fora take the same approach or are as welcoming of divergent voices - when I corrected someones assertion that Catholics worshipped Mary and Statues of Saints, made on a Protestant site I was really enjoying, I was banned from there with a message from the admin saying I was banned because I was a ‘‘Papist’’ pretending to be an atheist, to troll their board

I said earlier somewhere here, I do feel my time here is more or less coming to an end. I’ve got a pretty good understanding of what Catholics believe and why, and I’ve got some excellent reference material backed entirely by the Church.

But I keep getting sidetracked into interesting conversations I want to chime in with

Now just so you won’t be offended after reading this and then noting I’ve suddenly disappeared - I’m about to get into one and possibly two weeks of a world of crazy so it’s not that I won’t be around here much, I won’t be around here at all

Just so you know it was nothing you said

But, I’m sure I’ll be back - not because I’m looking for anything, or being led, because I’m not, I can tell you for sure, but because as religious fora go, this one has some really great and very interesting discussions.

That’s all.

Sarah x

Atheistgirl,

Thank you for your response. Currently, I’m only an occasional lurker on this forum and ran across this interesting thread this morning. I asked what seemed, I thought, to be a reasonable question (and one, I assume, often times posed by others, if only internally). I hope my question did not offend, as it was certainly not meant to. With genuine respect for you, I was curious about your motivation to be on this website. I truly appreciate the time spent in responding thoughtfully and kindly to my question.

I hope your next one to two weeks of crazy go well.
Peace.
NoelleRose

 

[NoelleRose]

In its essence, this is just an extension of the question, “Why does God allow evil in the world?” The answer is pretty straight forward - because he wants man to have free will. When there is true free will, some will chose to do something opposed to God’s will. This is the definition of evil.

So why allow free will, if it leads to pain and suffering? Well. that answer is also pretty straight forward - if you didn’t have free will, you wouldn’t be an autonomous being- instead you would be a robot, incapable of making a real decision.

So why aren’t all prayers granted? Well, that would be just bad parenting by the heavenly Father. Afterall, what happens to human children whose parents give them everything they want? Don’t they inevitably become spoiled and dependent? What about the children whose parents make them earn what they get? Don’t those children on average grow to be prosperous, self reliant individuals.

There’s another factor here as well. God’s priority is not for peoples’ comfort but for people to learn to love, which means to do things for others without expecting anything in return. To learn to love perfectly is to become like God, who provides everything for us despite the fact we have nothing to offer him in return. Like a good parent, God challenges us by putting us in different situations, and from those challenges we learn to love. Take the example you offer - the family of the McCann’s. Within their grief, they are demonstrating great love and many others have demonstrated love toward them. As you put it, people over the whole world have turned to prayer because of the loss of the young child. This is not insignificant. God did not create the loss of this child. That was most likely caused by some ones’ free choice to do evil. But God in his greatness is able to create opportunities to love even in the worst of circumstances.

I love your response. It’s a concise answer to a large question, one that so many people have and with which they struggle. I can certainly stand to be reminded of the very point you make, on occasion.