Absence of identity after death and resurrection

[hasantas]

**Life **is a process of energy in the same way that energy is a process of matter.

Mind is a process of life, as life is a process of energy…etc.

Without life, there can be no mind.

ICXC NIKA

So you claim that life without energy cannot be? But that is not true.

Does soul have a life?

Energy is a mean for life of soul to manifest in body. Otherwise soul has a life individually out of body. But body has no life when soul get out and body start to dissolve. And when soul get out of body then it is not use how much energy you put in body or support blood circulation by a machine. That demostrate that the source of life is not energy but soul itself has life.

In Islamic terminology it is said that God is Hakim. That mean God act and work through means and laws. Body and energy are means and laws for manifestation of life in material.

 

[Bahman]

Energy is not moral and all senses are moraly. For instance computer cannot decide to start a operation by itself. It need a program for every operation which fixed by human. Or computer cannot be happy or sorry, etc. If you say human run with biological energy? The main source of energy is Sun but there is no life in it. And it cause chemical and physical and biological reactions in body. Neural system run by those reactions. Notice that all reactions are material but not morally. And senses are not material. Even energy itself is one kind law of God. But energy has no conscious or life.

What do you mean with moral? You might need to check dictionary. Matter can undergo to several states, such as, liquid, gas, solid, superconductor, etc. One of states in this long list could be state of consciousness. We were not able to build a machine which is conscious yet, but we might able to build one in future.

 

[Bahman]

That’s patently false and you have provided no real argument to support that. Your logic does not follow.

I provided tons of evidences. If you don’t want to accept I cannot help it. If you want to argue you need to first provide an evidence that information is not material.

 

[hasantas]

What do you mean with moral? You might need to check dictionary. Matter can undergo to several states, such as, liquid, gas, solid, superconductor, etc. One of states in this long list could be state of consciousness. We were not able to build a machine which is conscious yet, but we might able to build one in future.

Spiritual or metaphysic.

But you do not accept spiritual and you are buried in matter.I stated that you wrench everything with your specific standarts which make it impossible to reconcile. Go your way.

 

[Vico]

It does, otherwise we didn’t need a brain. Holding information in fact is the result of wiring inside our brain hence information is even physical entity. Otherwise we didn’t need book, Internet, computer, etc for transferring and holding information.

One philosophy is given by St. Thomas Aquinas on this topic.

The memory in the body is lost with the death of the body. The soul, which has intelligence and will, remains after the bodily death, and the intellect retains the species “without the association of any corporeal organ”.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q79, Article 3
We must therefore assign on the part of the intellect some power to make things actually intelligible, by abstraction of the species from material conditions. And such is the necessity for an active intellect.

Reply to Objection 1. Sensible things are found in act outside the soul; and hence there is no need for an active sense. Wherefore it is clear that in the nutritive part all the powers are active, whereas in the sensitive part all are passive: but in the intellectual part, there is something active and something passive.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q79, Article 6. Whether memory is in the intellectual part of the soul?

Reply to Objection 1. Memory, if considered as retentive of species, is not common to us and other animals. For species are not retained in the sensitive part of the soul only, but rather in the body and soul united: since the memorative power is the act of some organ. But the intellect in itself is retentive of species, without the association of any corporeal organ. Wherefore the Philosopher says (De Anima iii, 4) that “the soul is the seat of the species, not the whole soul, but the intellect.”

newadvent.org/summa/1079.htm#article7

 

[seagal]

I provided tons of evidences. If you don’t want to accept I cannot help it. If you want to argue you need to first provide an evidence that information is not material.

You are confusing information with the media on which it is stored. I could write out the entire history of humanity but the paper and ink I use is not the information. The ink on the paper or the ones and zeroes of a computer database are only symbolic of the information. Knowledge is transcendent. The fact that two plus two equals four is true whether or not this information is stored anywhere, either on paper, computer, or your brain.

 

[Bahman]

You are confusing information with the media on which it is stored. I could write out the entire history of humanity but the paper and ink I use is not the information. The ink on the paper or the ones and zeroes of a computer database are only symbolic of the information. Knowledge is transcendent. The fact that two plus two equals four is true whether or not this information is stored anywhere, either on paper, computer, or your brain.

I am not confused between media and information. I am claiming that information is physical, not spiritual, because it is stored, transferred and processed by physical.

 

[Bahman]

One philosophy is given by St. Thomas Aquinas on this topic.

The memory in the body is lost with the death of the body. The soul, which has intelligence and will, remains after the bodily death, and the intellect retains the species “without the association of any corporeal organ”.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q79, Article 3
We must therefore assign on the part of the intellect some power to make things actually intelligible, by abstraction of the species from material conditions. And such is the necessity for an active intellect.

Reply to Objection 1. Sensible things are found in act outside the soul; and hence there is no need for an active sense. Wherefore it is clear that in the nutritive part all the powers are active, whereas in the sensitive part all are passive: but in the intellectual part, there is something active and something passive.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Q79, Article 6. Whether memory is in the intellectual part of the soul?

Reply to Objection 1. Memory, if considered as retentive of species, is not common to us and other animals. For species are not retained in the sensitive part of the soul only, but rather in the body and soul united: since the memorative power is the act of some organ. But the intellect in itself is retentive of species, without the association of any corporeal organ. Wherefore the Philosopher says (De Anima iii, 4) that “the soul is the seat of the species, not the whole soul, but the intellect.”

newadvent.org/summa/1079.htm#article7

Thank you for confirming.

 

[Bahman]

Spiritual or metaphysic.

Is this a question?

But you do not accept spiritual and you are buried in matter.I stated that you wrench everything with your specific standarts which make it impossible to reconcile. Go your way.

I can accept soul for sake of argument.

 

[seagal]

I am not confused between media and information. I am claiming that information is physical, not spiritual, because it is stored, transferred and processed by physical.

And I am claiming that information is not physical because it exists whether or not it is stored, transferred, or processed.

 

[Bahman]

And I am claiming that information is not physical because it exists whether or not it is stored, transferred, or processed.

But I am presenting a strong evidence whereas you don’t. So I am right and you are not.

 

[seagal]

But I am presenting a strong evidence whereas you don’t. So I am right and you are not.

I didn’t see any evidence, you simply claimed that information is stored in your brain or on a computer. While this is indisputable, it doesn’t mean anything except that we have different methods of storing information. It does not prove that the information is a physical entity in an of itself. My claim is at least as strong as yours.

 

[GEddie]

And I am claiming that information is not physical because it exists whether or not it is stored, transferred, or processed.

But does information exist if it is nowhere physically enocded?

ICXC NIKA

 

[seagal]

But does information exist if it is nowhere physically enocded?

ICXC NIKA

Someone has calculated the value of pi to the 2.7 trillionth digit. Just because they don’t have the 3 trillionth digit recorded anywhere does that mean it doesn’t exist?

 

[GEddie]

Someone has calculated the value of pi to the 2.7 trillionth digit. Just because they don’t have the 3 trillionth digit recorded anywhere does that mean it doesn’t exist?

The Aztec archives in Tenochtitlán (Mexico City) were destroyed in the 1530s. If information is nonphysical, does that mean the information they contained is **not **in fact lost for ever?

Or are there 2 kinds of information?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Bahman]

I didn’t see any evidence, you simply claimed that information is stored in your brain or on a computer. While this is indisputable, it doesn’t mean anything except that we have different methods of storing information. It does not prove that the information is a physical entity in an of itself. My claim is at least as strong as yours.

Can you give me one example in which information is stored in a non-physical device? I would like to mention that the information inside brain is stored through wiring hence it is subject to decay.

 

[Bahman]

Someone has calculated the value of pi to the 2.7 trillionth digit. Just because they don’t have the 3 trillionth digit recorded anywhere does that mean it doesn’t exist?

S/he therefor used an algorithm. That however doesn’t mean that you have direct access to all digits whenever you wish.

 

[Kurisu35712]

I provided tons of evidences. If you don’t want to accept I cannot help it. If you want to argue you need to first provide an evidence that information is not material.

No you haven’t, that’s what half of the posts in this thread are trying to tell you. You have only provided assertions, which are not evidence. If you don’t understand what the differences are between an assertion and a piece of evidence for the purposes of a discussion, you aren’t going to find an answer.

If you want to assert that individuals lose their individuality after death, you need to provide evidence for that assertion. My entire point is that none of your posts contain a logical argument for anything you’ve tried to claim as fact.

 

[Vico]

Can you give me one example in which information is stored in a non-physical device? I would like to mention that the information inside brain is stored through wiring hence it is subject to decay.

I am not sure if reflexive understanding meets your definition of information, but, per St. Thomas Aquinas, the intellectual memory uses the sentient portion of the soul to remember the temporal context of events but the passive intellect of the spiritual soul retains the reflexive understanding* of the act of understanding*. So upon death of the body, there remains that passive intellect with reflexive understanding.

 

[Bahman]

No you haven’t, that’s what half of the posts in this thread are trying to tell you. You have only provided assertions, which are not evidence. If you don’t understand what the differences are between an assertion and a piece of evidence for the purposes of a discussion, you aren’t going to find an answer.

If you want to assert that individuals lose their individuality after death, you need to provide evidence for that assertion. My entire point is that none of your posts contain a logical argument for anything you’ve tried to claim as fact.

All informations related to individuality and person’s life experiences are stored inside brain through wiring of neurons. This is a well accepted scientific fact. Any brain damage can affect the related information or functioning of the brain. This is again, a well accepted scientific fact. Hence, a person does not have any individuality after biological brain death.