Absolute perfection is not possible

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Again. God is not a being.

So therefore you are not discussing God. Just who or what are you discussing?
 
Roseeurekacross said:
You are in error if you are referring to God in this saying.
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There is a question as to whether or not God is above logic. I don’t see how God could do something which is logically impossible.
Roseeurekacross said:
Nor is God an all powerful perfect being.
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I thought that in the Catholic view, God is all powerful and perfect. However, there are other philosophies that put some limitations on the power of God. I haven’t read about any imperfections that God would have?
 
So you would disagree with the Baltimore Catechism Lesson 1, Question 2:
Who is God?

God is the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect, who made all things and keeps them in existence.
 
The Church has never said God is a being.
Ever.
Show me where the Church has ever said God is a being.

It all started when Moses asked God who He was.
 
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Roseeurekacross said:
The Church has never said God is a being.
Ever.
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OK. But here is the reference to the Baltimore Catechism Question 2. Does it not state that God is the Supreme Being?
What does the word “being” imply to you and why do you think that it is wrong to say that God is the Supreme Being?

2. Who is God?​

God is the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect, who made all things and keeps them in existence.
https://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/lesson01.html
 
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it does not say God is a being.

Look up the new Catechism and see what that says

I do again recommend everyone watching episode 3 of Bishop Barron’s excellent DVD series on Catholicism. It explains it much better then I ever could.
 
STT said:
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So you decline to offer a definition of God?
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Modern Catholic Dictionary, God:
The one absolutely and infinitely perfect spirit who is the Creator of all. In the definition of the First Vatican Council, fifteen internal attributes of God are affirmed, besides his role as Creator of the universe: “The holy, Catholic, apostolic Roman Church believes and professes that there is one true, living God, the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth. He is almighty, eternal, beyond measure, incomprehensible, and infinite in intellect, will and in every perfection. Since He is one unique spiritual substance, entirely simple and unchangeable, He must be declared really and essentially distinct from the world, perfectly happy in Himself and by his very nature, and inexpressibly exalted over all things that exist or can be conceived other than Himself” (Denzinger 3001).

Reflecting on the nature of God, theology has variously identified what may be called his metaphysical essence, i.e., what is God. It is commonly said to be his self-subsistence. God is Being Itself. In God essence and existence coincide. He is the Being who cannot not exist. God alone must be. All other beings exist only because of the will of God.
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I disagree, a being is one who exists. Hence the title if God : “Supreme Being”
I think you mean to say that God is not a creature, ie a being who was created.
 
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I was responding to STT . But good on you for actually going to research it, The newer catechism gives a much better definition , the older is still lacking clarity.

The Catholic Church says

God is being.

See how easy it is for error to creep into the Church.

Get the series of Bishop Barron and watch. He explains it very clearly and easily in episode 3 and again in ep 9. Or 10. I could start a new thread and define his explanation if it’s not copyrighting.

If we were to think of God as a being, we would be committing idolatry by worshipping a being. Bishop Barron explains it.

The Catholic Church has never said God is a being. The Church took its cue for this from the encounter between God and Moses when God answered I Am who I Am.

And simply I Am.
 
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I am not doing anything of the sort. We cannot personify God. You are attempting to do so in your arguments against God.

Take the argument being discussed on the other thread. No one has yet defined what I asked. Yet continue to discuss what they believe St Aquinas meant by one of his 5 arguments.

We must firstly define what we mean accurately, before arguing for or against it.

The Catholic Church says God IS BEING. God is Being itself.

Do your homework. Find out what that means.

Because it makes your arguments null
 
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There is NO semantic tussle.

See how easy it is for error to creep into the Church

There is a huge difference between a being

And being itself, God IS Being.

God is not A being.

Again for anyone confused get the DVD series Catholicism by the American Bishop Barron and watch it.

We don’t worship a being.

We worship being itself.

Tafan it’s the Catholic Church who is very careful and very sure on this point.

Are you guys Catholic? It’s alarming to know there is so much confusion and non clarity over the very first thing.

Words are very powerful . We see how powerful are God’s words in the creation story.

God is I Am. God is Being itself.
 
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STT said:
Are you familiar with Aquinas fourth way? Here it is: “The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But “more” and “less” are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.”
He talk about more, less, maximum too. I am simply questioning his first premise that there exists a maximum, in power, goodness, beauty, etc.
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Power, goodness, and beauty exist in created things and they exist in God. But to say that they exist means that they are, i.e, they fall under being though they connote in idea a certain aspect of being. For whatever is, exists, is to be. In the argument from Aquinas here, God is the uttermost, maximum, Supreme Being. Now if power, goodness, beauty, etc., exist in God and God is the maximum or Supreme Being, than it follows that power, goodness, beauty, etc., exist maximally or supremely in God or rather they are God for God is being or existence, power, goodness, beauty, etc. Also, as I said previously, philosophically considered, good is convertible with being and thus they are really the same but differ only in idea for goodness presents the aspect of desirableness which being does not present but being or existence is desirable and so whatever is, is good insofar as it is. Accordingly, again using Aquinas’ argument here, if God is the Supreme Being and good is convertible with being, than it follows that God is the Supreme Good.
 
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Roseeurekacross said:
Tafan it’s the Catholic Church who is very careful and very sure on this point.
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I am certainly Catholic, I consider myself fairly well informed on the Church’s teaching. Could you point me towards a source besides a video that explains your point. Saying" God is being" is using the word as an adjective (which I certainly agree with and understand ). Yet I thought we considered God the Supreme Being, a noun. What is the correct definition of being? I though it was one who exists.

If the Church is careful on this point, just point me in the right direction. My understanding of metaphysics is admittedly limited, so if I am wrong I would like to know why. If God is being, how can he not be a being?
 
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