Absolute perfection is not possible

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How does mathematics show that qualities are unbounded?

As to quantities being unbounded? That too is a little misleading. Certainly there are sets of values that are unbounded, ie infinite. That is obvious. But those are sets of abstract entities, commonly numbers but also permutations, etc. However, in the physical universe, which quantities are unbounded based on mathematics?

Your premises need some clarification before we can conclude the following
STT said:
Any proof for existence of God which uses the existence of absolute good as a premise is false.
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tafan2 said:
How does mathematics show that qualities are unbounded?

As to quantities being unbounded? That too is a little misleading. Certainly there are sets of values that are unbounded, ie infinite. That is obvious. But those are sets of abstract entities, commonly numbers but also permutations, etc. However, in the physical universe, which quantities are unbounded based on mathematics?
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The universe itself is unbound. If it has a bound then it is bounded with something else. Add something else to the universe. The whole is either bounded, first case, or unbounded, the second case. In first case, if the whole has a bound then it is bounded with something else. This obviously leads to infinite regress which means that the set of all of bounds and the universe is unbound. In second case, if the whole is unbound then we reach to the conclusion.
 
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Is the universe unbounded? That is a scientific question that is still debated. If it is bounded, why is it bounded with something else. Imagine a very small bug on a beach ball. The beach ball is obviously bounded, but to the bug crawling on the beach ball, no boundary exists, if he crawls in a straight line long enough, he returns to his starting location.

Again, you are starting with two assumptions: “in mathematics that qualities and quantities are unbounded”, that are not valid axioms for what you are trying to logically prove. To my knowledge, mathematics does not show that qualities (in general) are unbounded. Nor does it show that the quantities of the universe are unbounded.
 
tafan2 said:
Is the universe unbounded? That is a scientific question that is still debated. If it is bounded, why is it bounded with something else. Imagine a very small bug on a beach ball. The beach ball is obviously bounded, but to the bug crawling on the beach ball, no boundary exists, if he crawls in a straight line long enough, he returns to his starting location.
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Yes and no. The world is without boundary from point of view of the bug but the ball is in fact embedded inside three dimension space. The reality is not what bug sees but what exists which is that the space where the ball is embedded is unbound space considering the argument in my previous post.
tafan2 said:
Again, you are starting with two assumptions: “in mathematics that qualities and quantities are unbounded”, that are not valid axioms for what you are trying to logically prove. To my knowledge, mathematics does not show that qualities (in general) are unbounded. Nor does it show that the quantities of the universe are unbounded.
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The mathematics proves that qualities in principle can be unbounded in reality. The point is that if something is bounded, such as God’s power, then there exist another point in which the power is higher. If God’s power is unbounded then there still exists a point which is higher in power. Whether there exists a being who is more powerful than God is subject of investigation but a being with the power higher than God can exist. The idea is that there exists not an absolute thing, such as absolute power, which there exists not a point higher than it. There is always a higher than higher. That brings us back to idea of gods with a hierarchy in powers rather than one God with an absolute power.
 
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lisaandlena said:
This is definitely not within my field of expertise, but have you considered a “ Universal set ”. In other words a set which contains all other sets, even infinite ones. In which case no wisdom or power can exist which is greater than that contained within the universal set…i.e…God.
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Universal set is paradoxical, Russell’s paradox, and contradicts with Cantor’s theorem: Universal set - Wikipedia
 
Why does perfection have to imply an infinitely large number? Why can’t it imply, say, unity? So the striving for perfection is trying to get from 0 to 1, so when you’re 50% perfect you’re at 0.5, rather than halfway to infinity?

Mathematical reasoning doesn’t always work well with non-mathematical questions.
 
Well, the point is that if God is not all powerful then He is not God. That means something missing in Him, He is not perfect.
 
I don’t think so. God is not perfect if He is not all powerful. We can at least agree on this definition of perfection for sake of argument. The title of this thread could be absolute power is not possible if you wish.
 
God is both perfect and all-powerful. They are different things. Why would I accept a silly equivalence for the sake of argument? I might as well accept that blue is the same thing as loud for the sake of argument.
 
Russel paradox is relevant for the sets which respect Zermelo’s axiom. So your objection could be relevant. I however think that Cantor’s theorem stands.
 
If you wish we could change the title of this thread to absolute power is not possible.
 
Why never mind? If you wish to argue proof against God on a Catholic forum, you really need to understand God as Catholics do.

At this point you don’t. Because you said God is a being. That makes all your argument kind of void in this respect.
 
And this is your one big error in attempting to understand God for Catholics.

It makes your arguments null as this is not how God is understood.

Do some work, understand God first.
 
The Church does not subscribe to God as a being. That is an error. It’s for STT to do his homework and find out what the Church knows of God.

Watch Catholicism by Bishop Barron. It’s a good primer and deals with this in episode 3
 
STT said:
There could be higher being even if God is infinite. That is the whole point of the OP.
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There can’t be a higher being than Being or Existence itself just as there isn’t a higher whiteness than whiteness. Nor can being be added to Being because an addition to Being would be being but Being already is. And I already showed in one way how God who is subsistent Being or Existence itself is one and undivided just as if whiteness existed by itself it would be one undivided thing, namely, simply whiteness.
 
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STT said:
Salmonslayer:
Something unobtainable by us does not mean it’s unobtainable by anything.
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It is not about whether we cannot obtain it and something else can obtain it. It is about the fact that the highest bound does not exist.
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Prove it. (we’ll wait…)
Assertions do not make reality.
 
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