I guess that’s a good enough answer for you and me, since we are Catholic, but if I was Jewish or animist or Neanderthal, and found myself burning in hades or freezing in Purgatory for not responding to a Truth I was never presented, I’d feel pretty gypped.Because this is how it had to be.
The law written on the heart is not limited by culture. The truth of Christian faith, as understood through Revelation requires cultural transmission. The substance of the 10 commandments is found in the lived experience of all developed cultures everywhere.None of us could be Christians if it wasn’t available within our culture. No one would acknowledge a “law written on our hearts” if it wasn’t recognized within our culture.
People are not damned for faling to respond to a truth they have never heard. They are damned for failing to recognize the truth that is right under their nose. For us, that Truth has a Name: Jesus Christ. And in this world, you can hear the Name of Jesus (albeit likely brought to you courtesy of Evangelical radio) on every square inch of the planet. Is that enough? No. But every morning I listen to J. Vernon McGee’s “Through the Bible” radio show, where in 5 years he walks you through the whold of the Scriptures (minus 7 books) and letters are read from people in Afghanistan, Ethiopia, China, Siberia, Bangladesh . . .I guess that’s a good enough answer for you and me, since we are Catholic, but if I was Jewish or animist or Neanderthal, and found myself burning in hades or freezing in Purgatory for not responding to a Truth I was never presented, I’d feel pretty gypped.
I heard somewhere that 27% of the world is christian. In 2000 years of christianity this is the best we can do. This is a scandal and should be at the top of our prayer list that the world will be converted to the light.Actually, the number of Christians is not “few.” It is more than one-sixth of the entire world population.
The role of Christians in history is to spread the Gospel both by word and by deed.
sighI guess that’s a good enough answer for you and me, since we are Catholic, but if I was Jewish or animist or Neanderthal, and found myself burning in hades or freezing in Purgatory for not responding to a Truth I was never presented, I’d feel pretty gypped.
I agree - I cannot imagine any loving God denying eternal reward for those who have never been presented with or given a reason to believe in His One True Faith. That begs the question, then, of what is the point of being Christian? What Important Unique Truth does it really hold? If the good Jew or animist or Neanderthal or even atheist is not going to be punished for their circumstance in Hell or Purgatory, but rather judged based on the life they have chosen to lead, then it seems there is no absolute, uniquely important truth to be found by being Christian. Again, recognize that the majority of humans who have ever lived on the planet - all people with souls, all people God loves - have never been given a Christian “circumstance.”sigh
It doesn’t work like that. You don’t land in hell because of a lack of knowledge or because of your circumstance. Hell is a choice, not an ailment. The Jew who makes it to Heaven trod a road that was harder in some ways than the Christian, but there is virtue in the struggle.
Holy ****, man, how many times do I have to answer that exact same question?I agree - I cannot imagine any loving God denying eternal reward for those who have never been presented with or given a reason to believe in His One True Faith. That begs the question, then, of what is the point of being Christian?
Perhaps it would be better to no look at heaven in such a discrete way. Let’s look at the many mansions.I agree - I cannot imagine any loving God denying eternal reward for those who have never been presented with or given a reason to believe in His One True Faith. That begs the question, then, of what is the point of being Christian? What Important Unique Truth does it really hold? If the good Jew or animist or Neanderthal or even atheist is not going to be punished for their circumstance in Hell or Purgatory, but rather judged based on the life they have chosen to lead, then it seems there is no absolute, uniquely important truth to be found by being Christian. Again, recognize that the majority of humans who have ever lived on the planet - all people with souls, all people God loves - have never been given a Christian “circumstance.”
Kitten, have you checked into that book by Charles E. Rice: *Where Did I Come from? *I agree - I cannot imagine any loving God denying eternal reward for those who have never been presented with or given a reason to believe in His One True Faith. That begs the question, then, of what is the point of being Christian? What Important Unique Truth does it really hold? If the good Jew or animist or Neanderthal or even atheist is not going to be punished for their circumstance in Hell or Purgatory, but rather judged based on the life they have chosen to lead, then it seems there is no absolute, uniquely important truth to be found by being Christian. Again, recognize that the majority of humans who have ever lived on the planet - all people with souls, all people God loves - have never been given a Christian “circumstance.”
I guess I just don’t think your answer is very satisfactory. You and others say or imply that non-Christians will be judged based on the lives they have chosen to live. If they were generally good people, then they will not be punished by our loving God. Thus, if this is the case, I don’t see the absolute need for people to be Christian, and this fact makes me wonder what really is the unique and important truth of our religion, or if there is one.Holy ****, man, how many times do I have to answer that exact same question?
Then say that. Asking the same question over and over with no variation is just frustrating.I guess I just don’t think your answer is very satisfactory.
No, I’m out-right stating that everyone, without exception, will be judged on the lives they have chosen to live. Christians have a fuller version of the truth and thus a better ability to live in the most healthy way possible, but they will be judged as surely as the Hindu or Muslim or Pagan based off what they chose to do with the knowledge they had.You and others say or imply that non-Christians will be judged based on the lives they have chosen to live.
Punishment is the wrong way of thinking about hell. Hell isn’t about iron maidens, racks, and thumscrews. Hell is about refusing the outstretched hand and choosing to freeze outside in the clear-skied cold. You don’t need to know the name of the master to know that his house is warm and where you are is cold, but it sure helps to know that there’s also a cup of hot cocoa and blankets waiting for you and that there are no other refuges.If they were generally good people, then they will not be punished by our loving God.
I’m saying there isn’t an absolute need for people to be explicitly Christian. You don’t need to say, or even think, or even be aware of the Nicene Creed to get into Heaven. You don’t need to say the Our Father if you don’t think it’s the truth, and you don’t need a priest to douse your head with water. You do need to have a spark of desire for the truth and a want to love and be loved, and it is absolutely essentially that you freely chose to do what is right because that’s what you know on a fundamental level is right. This in no way means that Christianity is at all untrue, just that though it be harder, you can follow a road without knowing what it’s called on a map.Thus, if this is the case, I don’t see the absolute need for people to be Christian, and this fact makes me wonder what really is the unique and important truth of our religion, or if there is one.
OK, this is a good enough answer. Sorry to frustrate you so. But is there a theological reason why Christianity has been made available to only a limited number of humans across history?Then say that. Asking the same question over and over with no variation is just frustrating.
No, I’m out-right stating that everyone, without exception, will be judged on the lives they have chosen to live. Christians have a fuller version of the truth and thus a better ability to live in the most healthy way possible, but they will be judged as surely as the Hindu or Muslim or Pagan based off what they chose to do with the knowledge they had.
Punishment is the wrong way of thinking about hell. Hell isn’t about iron maidens, racks, and thumscrews. Hell is about refusing the outstretched hand and choosing to freeze outside in the clear-skied cold. You don’t need to know the name of the master to know that his house is warm and where you are is cold, but it sure helps to know that there’s also a cup of hot cocoa and blankets waiting for you and that there are no other refuges.
I’m saying there isn’t an absolute need for people to be explicitly Christian. You don’t need to say, or even think, or even be aware of the Nicene Creed to get into Heaven. You don’t need to say the Our Father if you don’t think it’s the truth, and you don’t need a priest to douse your head with water. You do need to have a spark of desire for the truth and a want to love and be loved, and it is absolutely essentially that you freely chose to do what is right because that’s what you know on a fundamental level is right. This in no way means that Christianity is at all untrue, just that though it be harder, you can follow a road without knowing what it’s called on a map.
The unique and important truth of Christianity is that salvation is ours for the taking. Humanity has been bought for a high price, and as such is valuable beyond measure. Though we have all of us felt the mar of sin, we can choose to let God clean us up and take us home to be his sons and daughters, his saints. Without this, you’re flying on pure blind hope, and the journey with a known destination and flight time is always much shorter than the journey into the unknown. Jesus didn’t come to earth so he could disqualify most of humanity across history from reaching heaven but to tell us the good news that we can reach heaven, and that all that is required of us is to reach up.
There are a few hypotheses. One is that history is supposed to work sorta like a story, and to that end it isn’t one uniform sameness. It unfolds slowly, which it is greater and more interesting than to simply be.OK, this is a good enough answer. Sorry to frustrate you so. But is there a theological reason why Christianity has been made available to only a limited number of humans across history?
The distinction here is that only via the Christian Revelation do we KNOW that we have salvation. We do not KNOW that it is available elsewhere. We speculate that God holds no one accountable for what he cannot possibly know. Yet, in justice, because of Divine Revelation, we do KNOW that all men have inherited the stain of original sin that virtually prohibits the free use of right reason.I guess I just don’t think your answer is very satisfactory. You and others say or imply that non-Christians will be judged based on the lives they have chosen to live. If they were generally good people, then they will not be punished by our loving God. Thus, if this is the case, I don’t see the absolute need for people to be Christian, and this fact makes me wonder what really is the unique and important truth of our religion, or if there is one.
The Catholic Church denies that Extra Ecclesia nulla gratiaTwo things here:
- Not all souls are equally loved by God? That is news to me. I thought He was all-loving. I can’t accept the idea that He picks and chooses whom he wants to save.
- You contradict yourself here a little, by saying that grace and thus salvation are available to those who practice Islam, etc, then you say that the Catholic faith is the only true faith and only means to salvation. Which is it?
The fancy Latin words don’t clarify anything for me.The Catholic Church denies that Extra Ecclesia nulla gratia
I think it has to be a matter of certainty. I can’t worship an unfair God, or one who plays favorites.The distinction here is that only via the Christian Revelation do we KNOW that we have salvation. We do not KNOW that it is available elsewhere. We speculate that God holds no one accountable for what he cannot possibly know. Yet, in justice, because of Divine Revelation, we do KNOW that all men have inherited the stain of original sin that virtually prohibits the free use of right reason.
We know that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life; however – or whether – others may fnd salvation through Him, with Him, and in Him via the exercise of reason and conscience is a matter of Hope but not a matter of certainty.
What do you mean “favorites?” Christ is available to all. The business of getting the word out is YOUR job as a Christian.I think it has to be a matter of certainty. I can’t worship an unfair God, or one who plays favorites.
I don’t suppose you have followed up on *Where Did I Come from? . . . *I think it has to be a matter of certainty. I can’t worship an unfair God, or one who plays favorites.
If belonging to the Church and knowing its doctrine means anything, then, no, Christ/Christianity is not available to all. See all of my other posts, plus those of BlaineTog, who seems to understand what I’m saying, at least. I’m not talking about radio broadcasts.What do you mean “favorites?” Christ is available to all. The business of getting the word out is YOUR job as a Christian.
Are you suggesting that God should come up with a better plan? A lot of people would agree with you. Y’know, something that doesn’t require work. Something anybody could buy into without having to think too much about it. Something that ***I ***like.