F
FCEGM
Guest
I would just change that to: TRUTH IS what the TRUTH IS, but I, otoh, can live my life and create my own “truth” and be found having lived a lie.
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M
mercygate
Guest
I agree that “Jesus is the Truth” does not answer your question. As a Christian, I would certainly say that He IS the Truth – but that is a faith statement. It is a conclusion that has not demonstrated how it is reached. “Just believe” might work for some people. Others require (and should be respected for it) a more deliberate and rational approach.
The question about the Gospels goes to a whole different issue. The differences reflect views of the proverbial elephant, not contradictions.
M
Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
V
Valke2
Guest
I am not a christian. But if the truth doesn’t apply to me, then it is not an absolute truth. It is a relevent or condtional truth.
A
AlegreFe
Guest
Absolute truth applies to anything and everyone. It’s a different matter if one wants to accept it. Absolute truth does not depend on anything or anyone, it just is. So God is Absolute Truth whether you believe in God or not.
S
Syele
Guest
Truth applies to everyone, It’s like someone said in another thread…
You don’t believe in Hell? That’s ok, you will when you get there.
What is true is true weather you believe it is true or not. It’s getting everyone to agree on what is Truth and what isn’t that’s hard.
You don’t believe in Hell? That’s ok, you will when you get there.
What is true is true weather you believe it is true or not. It’s getting everyone to agree on what is Truth and what isn’t that’s hard.
E
exoflare
Guest
Valke,
Great topic for a thread. I love these kind of discussions.
Great topic for a thread. I love these kind of discussions.
M
Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
But the truth does apply to you-- and to all of us too.
In the end, we’re going to either be in heaven with God or in hell without God. You can’t get more absolute than that.
M
mercygate
Guest
Exactly. Moreover, truth is not an “application” – at least not in the sense that you have posed the question. The very definition of truth, arising out of the causality train of reasoning, requires that it ultimately reside in a cause that must be single. The ‘multiplicity’ of ‘truths’ we experience, making truth appear subjective and relative results from our finite nature.
R
rmcmullan
Guest
I’d just like to point out the difference between ***Truth ***and Understanding. Think of the three blind men and the elephant!
noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html
noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html
R
rmcmullan
Guest
Almost forgot! The refutation to the Blind Man and the elephant…
everystudent.com/wires/elephant.html?OVRAW=blind%20men%20elephant&OVKEY=the%20blind%20man%20and%20the%20elephant&OVMTC=standard
everystudent.com/wires/elephant.html?OVRAW=blind%20men%20elephant&OVKEY=the%20blind%20man%20and%20the%20elephant&OVMTC=standard
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Darrel
Guest
I’ll take a stab at this. Absolute truth is a fact that is 100 percent pure in it’s accuracy and beyond (all opinion). Since God is the one with all knowledge he would be the best judge of absolute truth in accuracy. Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life.
If I say “I am human” that seems like an absolute truth. Yet it would be more “absolutely” true if I said “I am a creation of God”. Human is our word, not Gods per say. When the angel said to Mary “blessed art thou among women”. This was an absolute truth. When God said “I am” this was an absolute truth.
Another aspect of truth is how we are programmed to believe certain things. As an American I am programmed to believe that America is the so called “good guy”. This unfortunately is not an absolute truth since it’s subject to opinion.
-D
If I say “I am human” that seems like an absolute truth. Yet it would be more “absolutely” true if I said “I am a creation of God”. Human is our word, not Gods per say. When the angel said to Mary “blessed art thou among women”. This was an absolute truth. When God said “I am” this was an absolute truth.
Another aspect of truth is how we are programmed to believe certain things. As an American I am programmed to believe that America is the so called “good guy”. This unfortunately is not an absolute truth since it’s subject to opinion.
-D
V
Valke2
Guest
Assuming we choose to believe that God is the absolute authority (as opposed to chance); then we can conclude that we were created for a purpose. And the more we fullfill that purpose, the more we fullfill God’s will. We can also conclude that there is right and there is wrong. And that we are accountable to God for our behavior.
Assuming we choose to believe that chance is the ultimate authority – meaning everything was created by chance, then there is no ultimate standard to judge reality and we have to question whether our lives have any intrinsic value, as we are here by pure chance. And no one is accountable to anything except by agreement.
D
Darrel
Guest
The fact that anything exist at all = creation. This is an absolute truth that seems easily lost in the world. It’s too simple for science to deal with, yet it’s obvious. This truth kind of deletes the pure chance theory imho.
-D
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cheddarsox
Guest
I think there are other valid options other than “God” and chance. There are universal “laws” the way in which matter and energy behave. Occurances are not mere chance, there is order in the universe. Some call that order “God” and assign human like characteristics to it.
The absence of these characteristics does not default to chance. There are other valid concepts of what is going on.
I would agree with the last sentence of your post however. I think observation of the universe points toward nothing being accountable to anything except by agreement. Everything appears to be free to act within the universal laws with no particular consequences being divied out, no apparent universal “justice” in human terms…or at least that appeal to my cultural norms.
The justice seems to be built in, everything can only act according to universal laws, but in no way does that amount to chance.
I know you did not say those were the ONLY options, but very often in arguments here (as opposed to debates, because most of the time they amount to arguments) people seem to argue as if those are the only two options…Christian God…or chance. That may make it simpler for some, but does little to advance the debate.
I sort of see this thread slipping in that direction, which is why I brought it up, and, I am guessing why you posted the above.
I’d prefer to discuss more options rather than rehash the Christian God or chance…Chance makes no sense, therefore Christian God wins! thread.
cheddar
V
Valke2
Guest
Either there is an ultimate authority reponsible for the fact that those laws work, or there isn’t. If there isn’t, then we’re back to chance. ANd who said anything about a christian God?
M
mercygate
Guest
This is a good, simple way to clarify the important point that truth is, in itself, to some degree knowable with some degree of accuracy.
Valke2 had not asked about Jesus. He asked WHETHER absolute truth exists. The elephant schema really is not about identifying truth. These men know (believe) that they are experiencing the elephant. The story exemplifies the limitations of simple experience without corroboration and a reaching intellect to probe further into the truth of what the elephant is.
And yes: the key point of that story is that all of their experiences have given them a false impression.
I think where interfaith dialogue becomes fruitful, is at a high level when Hindus, Taoists, Muslims, Jews and Christians all recognize some one thing that each values as crucial to his faith and essential to his understanding of truth. That is why these inter faith connections are often made by monks: men of prayer rather than men of politics.
Back to the original question: Truth.
We all keep talking about God because we understand that our concept of truth is inseparable from our concept of God.
Where we move out from that is when we identify God as a Person. If you can believe that there is a God, a creator, an uncaused cause, do you necessarily move toward the idea of a personal God?
I do not think I would feel compelled to identify Truth with a personal God if it were not for the New Testament. I know that’s backwards. But for me, the intellectual assent that God exists, was affirmed by the mutual corroboration of the New Testament and the history of the early Church, which forced me to believe in the divinity of Christ.
I believe the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph is THE One God because I first believed in the Messiah. The bush really was on fire and it was not consumed.
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cheddarsox
Guest
Yes, I can agree on an ultimate authority, but you used the word God,which, in my culture is the term used when people are discussing the Judeo/Christian God.
In my parts “God” capital G, refers to a specific deity, not just a generic word for Ultimate Authority.
Further, your post indicated that the said God had a will and purpose for us, and that there is right and wrong. That sounds like you are speaking specifically of a deity, not merely an ultimate authority. There are other concepts of ultimate authority that don’t automatically include will, purpose, and accountability. Are those being included in this discussion, or are they not to be considered?
cheddar
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ljbonavia
Guest
the mere fact that at least one being poses the question of absolute reality is enough to say there is (think about this one). Therefore, there must be God, and one true unchanging authority. This authority is based on love, which every human
being needs (most of the time without realising)
ljbonavia
being needs (most of the time without realising)
ljbonavia
A
AlegreFe
Guest
God is Absolute! Jesus Christ is Absolute! The Holy Spirit is Absolute! God revealed Himself in the Image of Man.
The Truth is not something, the Truth is Somebody and His name is Jesus Christ.
Wrap your mind around this;
If you believe that God is Absolute Truth,
then you could believe that Jesus Christ is Absolute Truth.
If you believe that Jesus and God is Absolute Truth,
then you could believe that the Holy Spirit is Absolute Truth.
Jesus and God is One. The Holy Spirit of God is the Mind of Christ.
Jesus and God is Love and that Love is also the Holy Spirit.
Jesus and God and Holy Spirit is One.
(ignore the obvious erroneous grammar)
If absolute Truth needs a witness then there is absolute Truth.
The first Witness to God of course is Jesus Christ.
But if you insist on another witness, well here you go;
John 1:1-18
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing came to be.
What came to be
through him was life,
and this life was the light of the
human race;
the light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness has not overcome it.
A man named John was sent from God.
He came for testimony, to testify to the
light, so that all might believe through him.
He was not the light, but came to testify
to the light.
The true light, which enlightens everyone,
was coming into the world.
He was in the world,
and the world came to be through him,
but the world did not know him.
He came to what was his own,
but his own people did not accept him.
But to those who did accept him he gave
power to become children of God, to those
who believe in his name,
who were born not by natural generation
nor by human choice nor by a man’s
decision but of God.
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,
and we saw his glory,
the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.
John testified to him and cried out, saying,
“This was he of whom I said, ‘The one who
is coming after me ranks ahead of
me because he existed before me.’”
From his fullness we have all received,
grace in place of grace,
because while the law was given through Moses,
grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
No one has ever seen God.
The only Son, God, who is at
the Father’s side, has revealed him.
John 8:19
19 So they said to him, “Where is your father?”
Jesus answered, “You know neither me nor my
Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
John 12:43-45
43 For they preferred human praise to the
glory of God.
44 Jesus cried out and said, "Whoever believes
in me believes not only in me but also in the one
who sent me,
45 and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me.
John 14:7
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the
truth and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me.
7 If you know me, then you will also know my Father.
The Truth is what it is, what it is.
The Truth is also a double-edged sword.
It’s Dark and Light; Black and White.
It’s NEVER Gray
The Devil loves the color Gray.
Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Light.
But don’t think that these are contradictions. They are not. This is a Paradox.
okay, if you want to put me in the insane asylum… :whacky:
But seriously folks… The Truth is Jesus Christ.
- Status