Absolutely losing it

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bdonoho
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Bdonoho

Guest
Hello,
My name is Brent Donoho. I have been a professing Christian all of my life. My parents have been good and kind to me, and I have had every advantage a man could have under heaven. I am destroying myself. I am always doubting whether God loves me or whether I belong to him and today, when I had the first good cry I’ve had in years, I was more sad about all the good my Dad has done for me and how I’ve let him down than I was about offending God or Christ.

I have been looking into the Roman Catholic Church because if the sacrament of the church can really do what they say it can than maybe, I can get off this path that I am on. Right now, every effort I have made to repent has been either insufficient or transitory and even after hearing the gospel a thousand times I still am afraid that I will never be a real Christian.

My pastor told me today that if I become a Roman Catholic, I will have to bid farewell to any hope of assurance of salvation. Is that true?

I’m also working through Niel T. ANderson’s material from Freedom in Christ Ministries.

One more thing, according to others, I suffer from scrupulosity.
 
Hello,
My name is Brent Donoho. I have been a professing Christian all of my life. My parents have been good and kind to me, and I have had every advantage a man could have under heaven. I am destroying myself. I am always doubting whether God loves me or whether I belong to him and today, when I had the first good cry I’ve had in years, I was more sad about all the good my Dad has done for me and how I’ve let him down than I was about offending God or Christ.
You said others have thought you scrupulous. I don’t know all the details, but this sounds like a text book example of it.

This is the kind of thinking that will drive you nuts; Focusing on the itty bitty details except what’s important (that you love your father and thus love God by proxy.) I have scruples too. Don’t doubt God loves you!
I have been looking into the Roman Catholic Church because if the sacrament of the church can really do what they say it can than maybe, I can get off this path that I am on. Right now, every effort I have made to repent has been either insufficient or transitory and even after hearing the gospel a thousand times I still am afraid that I will never be a real Christian.

My pastor told me today that if I become a Roman Catholic, I will have to bid farewell to any hope of assurance of salvation. Is that true?
That’s wonderful that you are seriously looking into Catholicism. Well, do you feel assured of your salvation now? From what you wrote it doesn’t sound like you do. I wouldn’t worry about it because it’s a false hope anyway to think just because we are believing Christians we have a free pass. The Holy spirit is guiding you. That you’re focusing on the sacraments and what they offer is what makes me feel that way. As a Catholic this is our hope our “assurance”; that Jesus has promised that there is one truth and He does not “leave us orphans” and sits and waits for us in the tabernacle. From what I’ve learned from this forum, the closer you get on your journey, the more doubt and obstacles may come your way. So, I will say a prayer for you and yours. :blessyou:
 
Hi Brent. I too suffer from scrupulosity, so I understand what it’s like to have frequent doubts and fears. There is no such thing as “assured salvation”–in fact, that is a very dangerous way of thinking. I come from a Protestant background and although I have been Catholic for almost 15 years, I maintained an “I’m saved” attitude and arrogantly professed, “I’m not afraid of dying…I know I’m going to Heaven”, all the while BLINDED by my sins. A year ago this very day I went to Confession for the first time in 7 or 8 years, and when I came out of that Confessional, I stopped swearing almost immediately and my eyes were opened to more and more things that I had done or not done that were sins. See, Confession gives us graces in order to help us see the Truth and to help us stop sinning. Also, Jesus Christ is truly present (Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity) in the Eucharist, and receiving Him in a state of Grace helps us to avoid sin as well. I have made more progress in one year with frequent Confession, praying the Rosary, reading the Scriptures, and receiving the Eucharist frequently than I made in 15 years of not doing those things! I still cannot say I am “saved” because I never want to slip back into that mindset, but I place my hope in Jesus’s Mercy. I do not think I could have changed the way I have (with of course much more growing to do!) without the Catholic Church and Her Sacraments!! I feel that if I continue on this path and place my trust in Jesus, I have a much better shot at “making it” to Heaven than without the Catholic Church, which is the very first Church of Jesus Christ on this Earth, dating back to the time of the Apostles.
 
Hello,
My name is Brent Donoho. I have been a professing Christian all of my life. My parents have been good and kind to me, and I have had every advantage a man could have under heaven. I am destroying myself. I am always doubting whether God loves me or whether I belong to him and today, when I had the first good cry I’ve had in years, I was more sad about all the good my Dad has done for me and how I’ve let him down than I was about offending God or Christ.

I have been looking into the Roman Catholic Church because if the sacrament of the church can really do what they say it can than maybe, I can get off this path that I am on. Right now, every effort I have made to repent has been either insufficient or transitory and even after hearing the gospel a thousand times I still am afraid that I will never be a real Christian.

My pastor told me today that if I become a Roman Catholic, I will have to bid farewell to any hope of assurance of salvation. Is that true?

I’m also working through Niel T. ANderson’s material from Freedom in Christ Ministries.

One more thing, according to others, I suffer from scrupulosity.
Assurance of salvation (i.e. knowing in advance that you will be saved) does not exist.

The only way to be assured of salvation is to be baptised, Catholic, and to die in a state of grace.
 
From what I’ve learned from this forum, the closer you get on your journey, the more doubt and obstacles may come your way.
Yes, because the closer you get to being where you should be, the harder the devil tries to make you change your mind. I’ve experienced that and I still do from time to time. Once you get ‘over the hump’ so to speak, he seems to back off a little bit…for a while. Our journey is never easy, and wasn’t meant to be. BUT it IS worth every sacrifice we make.

BTW, your preacher is dead wrong and ignorant, among other things.
 
Warm Greetings Bdonoho – 2 July 2012
The things you are saying have to do with your self worth, your self value. I am in my early 80’s and am an active Eucharistic minister (I spend hours bringing Holy Communion to hospital patients and people in private homes). I am a born Christian, from birth a Catholic. I do have some training in these matters.

You have half a gift from God, a very precious gift. You are not self-righteous. You’re nothing and you know it. That’s one half. Thanks be to God.

Here’s the half you’re missing … what God in Jesus Christ has done FOR you and what God has done IN you. You are not merely a creature, not merely a human being and human person. God has effected this IN you, caused this IN you > You, Bdonoho, are NOW a true son of God, sharing in Jesus Christ, the Very Divine Life of the Trinity. (I am assuming you do not now devote yourself to serious sin and that in your heart you’re sorry for past sins. I believe that’s so in you.)

THIS is your real self value. THIS is your REAL worth. You don’t cause it to be … GOD has done this. God Knows you and your nothing-ness without Him. And when God Sees you He Sees you in His Eternal Son, Jesus Christ Incarnate. Focus on what God Thinks of you.

Regarding assurance of your eternal salvation > It is true that the Catholic Church tells us that we can have no absolutely certain assurance of our Eternal Salvation – apart from some special private revelation. However, it IS possible for us to have a reasonable assurance if certain signs in ourselves are present. Such as daily prayer, frequent Scripture reading, devotion to Mary the Mother of God, partaking in the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist, and others.

Bdonoho, do not focus on who you are without God. Rather focus on what God has Caused in you in Jesus Christ, that you are a FOREVER LOVED TRUE SON, SHARING IN DIVINE TRINITY LIFE.

God went to too much trouble to have you mixed up about your true worth in His Sight.
John (JohnJFArren)
 
Hello,
My name is Brent Donoho. I have been a professing Christian all of my life. My parents have been good and kind to me, and I have had every advantage a man could have under heaven. I am destroying myself. I am always doubting whether God loves me or whether I belong to him and today, when I had the first good cry I’ve had in years, I was more sad about all the good my Dad has done for me and how I’ve let him down than I was about offending God or Christ.

I have been looking into the Roman Catholic Church because if the sacrament of the church can really do what they say it can than maybe, I can get off this path that I am on. Right now, every effort I have made to repent has been either insufficient or transitory and even after hearing the gospel a thousand times I still am afraid that I will never be a real Christian.

My pastor told me today that if I become a Roman Catholic, I will have to bid farewell to any hope of assurance of salvation. Is that true?

I’m also working through Niel T. ANderson’s material from Freedom in Christ Ministries.

One more thing, according to others, I suffer from scrupulosity.
i would simply like to recommend you read this -
archive.org/details/theheartofthegos00donnuoft
that will help out with scrupulosity, among many other things.

and check out these as well -
audiosancto.org/
keepthefaith.org/
fultonsheen.com/Fulton-Sheen-MP3.cfm
z13.invisionfree.com/DominamStellaMaris/index.php?act=idx
archive.org/details/thefairestargume00nolluoft
fisheaters.com/prayers.html

and i would highly recommend finding a good priest to help you through this, one from the FSSP would be ideal if you have one nearby - fssp.org/en/coordonnees.htm

hope this helps, take care.
 
What is it about the Fssp that is particularly significant?
 
By the way (sorry to double post) but I thank you all for your help, especially for the writing on assurance. I understand what all of you are saying and I agree with you (especially with the second to last poster, since he did affirm that there is definitely a sort of assurance that is perfectly valid in a Christian’s life).

I had a question for all of you: have you ever listened to Paul Washer? I was wondering what the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching on revival is?
 
Hello,
My name is Brent Donoho. I have been a professing Christian all of my life. My parents have been good and kind to me, and I have had every advantage a man could have under heaven. I am destroying myself. I am always doubting whether God loves me or whether I belong to him and today, when I had the first good cry I’ve had in years, I was more sad about all the good my Dad has done for me and how I’ve let him down than I was about offending God or Christ.

I have been looking into the Roman Catholic Church because if the sacrament of the church can really do what they say it can than maybe, I can get off this path that I am on. Right now, every effort I have made to repent has been either insufficient or transitory and even after hearing the gospel a thousand times I still am afraid that I will never be a real Christian.

My pastor told me today that if I become a Roman Catholic, I will have to bid farewell to any hope of assurance of salvation. Is that true?

I’m also working through Niel T. ANderson’s material from Freedom in Christ Ministries.

One more thing, according to others, I suffer from scrupulosity.
What your pastor said is not true. He is only trying to discourage you from becoming Catholic. That said, we as Catholics do not have assurance of salvation unless we die in a state of grace.
 
What your pastor said is not true. He is only trying to discourage you from becoming Catholic. That said, we as Catholics do not have assurance of salvation unless we die in a state of grace.
But you CAN have assurance that you ARE in a state of grace, right? I think what you mean by “assurance” is what Reformed Protestants mean by “certainty of salvation” (sort of what Trent referred to as "a divine revelation that you’re definitely elect). While Calvinists derive assurance from signs of the new birth, I don’t think anyone believes that it’s possible to have absolute certainty, since none of us have read in the bible “So-and-so” is elect.

Upon reading the article on assurance that was in Catholic Answers, I tended to agree with most of the thrust of the argument. If at the end of your life, you have evidenced consistent faithfulness and fruitfulness (like Paul did) then it isn’t presumption to believe that you have finished the race. On the other hand, since most of us live unevenly fruitful lives and sin, assurance usually is not as frequent.

As for what my Pastor said, he was actually a lot more accepting of me than I thought. He said there are definitely pros and cons, and one of the cons is that Catholics tend to always be wondering if they have done enough to make it to Heaven (notice: I didn’t say always, but the tendency is DEFINITELY there. But then again, Evangelicals don’t fare much better.) I listened to a sermon where a Roman Catholic Priest sounded a lot more evangelical in his understanding of salvation, in that if a person answers the question “why should I let you into heaven” with any response other than “Jesus died for my sins” (a.k.a. I was a pretty good guy, I gave to the poor, etc.) then he would be judged.

The problem I am faced with now is that I’m not sure if I’m in a state of Grace or a state of Mortal sin. Even as I am now, I don’t think I hold to eternal security (my doctrine of predestination tends to be of the traditional Lutheran persuation). I realize that I am getting more fleshly and cavalier, and I need grace to overcome this and be reconciled with God.

One other thing: Do Catholics generally put conservative protestants in the same camp as Liberal ones when using the term “Protestant”? The book by John F. Noll quotes “Protestants” that support doctrines that are taught by the Roman Catholic church and quotes liberals like Harnack who denied the inspiration of the Apostle John, is he aware that in Protestantism there is definitely a divide between liberal scholarship and scholarship that seeks to uphold biblical fidelity? It’s stuff like this that has resulted in a sort of distrust of Catholic apologetics, but I want to give it a chance because its not like evangelicals don’t have propaganda either.
 
It sounds like you are suffering from scrupulosity, and trust me I know how it is. First off I would like to say don’t EVER doubt God’s Love for you, it goes to the end of the earth. He has cast your sin as far as east from west. Never to be remembered or to be held against you, anything that you repent of is forgiven. ANYTHING. The only unpardonable sin is not repenting of your sins. Next I want to congratulate you on looking into Catholicism. This is the true Church. And your pastor (denomination?) has no right to tell you that you can’t be saved. As long as you have accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour, go to confession and repent, and live a holy life then you will go to Heavenr hear or Purgatory. :))) Follow God, pray the Rosary, and trust in the never ending power and glory of Our Lord. God Bless I will pray for you. If you have any questions please message me!
 
Again … hello Bodonoho –
Here are a couple ideas I picked up from your (and others’) postings.

You wrote “…since none of us have read in the Bible.” Bodonoho, it’s essential that you know that the Catholic Church finds the essentials of God’s Revelation in TWO sources, the Bible AND Tradition. The Church considers these two inseparable and complementary. The Bible alone is not exhaustive of God’s Revelation.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Your use of the phrase “absolute certainty” brings smiles (as well as tears) to my eyes. Bear with this little story and Rene Decartes. MANY years ago when I was 17-18 (before Lincoln’s inaugural), I picked Descarte’s MEDITATIONS off the shelf and was intrigued and completely captured for quite a few years. (My faith was never in question.) I hungered desperately for rational, intellectual, certainty. And Descartes gave me my simple and clear – and FALSE – foundation. In my own words > “Either one is absolutely certain, metaphysically certain, intuitively certain … OR … one is NOT certain. Either black or white – no shades.” I loved it! And so I asked of God to help me find ONE SINGLE THING of which I could experience absolute certainty, just one single spot to plant one single foot so I could walk firmly in the rational order.

And I searched and searched for many years. (My faith was not a problem. God had given me that gift and it stood firm.)

What I looked for … was it possible? One time long ago I wept bitter tears because if I couldn’t know clearly and with absolute certainty WHAT BEING IS !!! then it was impossible to know what a chair or street or a human being or even cigarette smoke was !!!

Forgive this long story. Honestly it does lead to important ideas about any assurance we can have of our salvation in Heaven.

I worked for my master’s degree in Philosophy and was allowed to choose for my dissertation topic THE KINDS OF CERTITUDO. Much work I did in Aquinas and Aristotle. And then I special gift from God came, the French philosopher Jacques Maritain and his major work The Degrees of Knowledge (French Distinguer pour unir), not first trans by B Wall, but second trans by Phelan. At this point I must move ahead quickly.

It wasn’t magic – although it did seem to be. Maritain’s presentation of how this very limited yet absolute certainty was already mine from childhood and stared me in the face constantly so excited me I cried out loud in joy! “2-SCIO 1-ALIQUID ESSE” … that’s it!

With absolutely certainty SOMETHING IS! Dirt … grass … tree … bird … cigarette smoke … it made no difference what! SOMETHING IS !!! and this I experience. Only after, only subsequently, only reflectively as a second mental movement do I realize that I know, that I know that some being, a being is, exists. To me this was the one single absolutely and metaphysicaly certain thing that I knew. In the rational order finally I had been “saved.”

Now back to your matters, Bodonoho, in your postings.

Certitudo is the fixity that is in all beings simply because they are, they exist. But this fixity is of varying measures in different creatures. Consider objects in a room > Here is my computer. With my little finger I’d have difficulty moving it but with my hands I certainly could push and move it. There’s the dining room table. Rather solid. A little child could not move it. But I can. And there’s the nearby refrigerator. Only with great exertion could I shove it and move it. And then there’s the wall. With all my power I cannot move the wall. And yet – with a sledge hammer I could move it.

The point > The different degrees of certainty in our knowing different things depend on the certitudo that is in the varying beings known. As Aristotle would say, “We ought not ask of a biologist the same certainty we ask of a mathematician. The mark of an educated man is to ask of different beings the kinds of certainty those beings have in them.”

Regarding any assurance of our attaining Heaven, the Catholic Church teaches that we cannot have absolute certainty apart from a private revelation … as the apostles were given by Christ, telling them to “rejoice because your names are written in Heaven.” However, there are other measures of certainty, not absolute, that we can have based upon our living a spiritual life, a life that shows our participating in prayer, the sacraments, acts of love toward our neighbor, etc. We’re supposed to trust God, right? We do not believe what we SEE. We believe what we do not see. And so we trust in God, with these lesser signs of living a spiritual life, that God’s Love will see us to Heaven … if we continue aiming at living a truly spiritual life. THIS kind of assurance we can and should have.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Bodonoho, in another area you wrote, “I’m not sure if I’m in a state of Grace or a state of mortal sin.” God does not want you to be in doubt about this. Here is my strong suggestion > Ask yourself, am I clearly conscious of holding onto a sin so great that it would damn me forever? I think you’ll answer yourself, no, I’m not. Then, Bodonoho, trusting in Jesus’ Love for you, throw away your doubt and send it to hell where it belongs … and continue to love God.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Well, I didn’t mean for my posting to get this long. I truly hope, with prayer, that this will be of some benefit to you, Bodonoho, and to others who might read it.
Pray for me. JohnJFarren
 
Hi Brent,🙂

Here are some links about salvation and scrupulosity. I hope that they are a help to you.

Just a couple of things:
  1. The only reason to become a Catholic is because you are convinced of the truths of the Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus Christ.
  2. Joining the Catholic Church will not give you a guaranteed ticket to heaven – there is no magic about being a Catholic.
• catholic.com/magazine/articles/are-you-saved-if-only
Are you saved?
Tim Staples

• catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation
Assurance of salvation?

• From Fr Bartunek’s spiritual direction blog:
How do I know if I am scrupulous or just sensitive to sin?
Code:
                [rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/topical-series-and-resources-on-the-spiritual-](http://rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/topical-series-and-resources-on-the-spiritual-)          life/scrupulosity-understanding-and-overcoming
• Thoughts That Will Not Go Away
Scrupulosity and How to Overcome It
By Rev. Thomas M. Santa, CSSR
archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0012fea2.asp

All the best; I will keep you in my prayers.
 
Hey, I was wondering, what is the FSSP?
FSSP = Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (Fraternitas Sacerdotalis Sancti Petri)

I would suggest that you enrole for RCIA in a catholic parish near you.
It usually starts in the autumn and provides you with what the catholic church teaches.
There are no strings attached. Just the teaching of the church and time for questions.
At the end of that time, a person can chose to become catholic or not with no pressure either way.

Meanwhile, you may want to peruse this site which has the Baltimore Catechism.
This is a short version of the catholic faith, question/answer style.

Be at peace.
 
Hey guys, I’ve been reading Ignatius of Antioch, and I just want to say that I need your prayers so badly. I have lived a wicked life of hypocrisy, professing Godliness but inwardly far from God. My heart is very twisted and it is very hard for me to experience Godly sorrow, so making acts of perfect contrition are very difficult. I am worried that sometimes I am more interested in saving myself from destruction than I am in loving God, and I need God’s mercy to help me see him as more beautiful and lovely than anything else that would charm me away from him.
 
Hey guys, I’ve been reading Ignatius of Antioch, and I just want to say that I need your prayers so badly. I have lived a wicked life of hypocrisy, professing Godliness but inwardly far from God. My heart is very twisted and it is very hard for me to experience Godly sorrow, so making acts of perfect contrition are very difficult. I am worried that sometimes I am more interested in saving myself from destruction than I am in loving God, and I need God’s mercy to help me see him as more beautiful and lovely than anything else that would charm me away from him.
Jesus says “Be not afraid”. In your prayer time tell Him that you love Him and are thankful for all He did for you. This does not have to be accompanied by feelings, which come and go. Just be sincere.

God loves you infinitely and wants what is best for you. Trust Him!
 
There was something else I have been wrestling with a lot. Do Catholics struggle a lot with wondering if they have ever done enough to earn God’s love? I have been reading Ignatius and it seems that he was immensely anxious about attaining to the resurrection, almost as if he was unsure if God loved him and he had to prove his worth by an act of Martyrdom. I have always been taught that the reason Jesus came was to bring us to God without our having to earn his love through works. I fell in love with this and would never want to give it up for anything (and I don’t see how anyone can live with any joy knowing that they could only go to heaven if they were good enough to merit it).
 
There was something else I have been wrestling with a lot. Do Catholics struggle a lot with wondering if they have ever done enough to earn God’s love? I have been reading Ignatius and it seems that he was immensely anxious about attaining to the resurrection, almost as if he was unsure if God loved him and he had to prove his worth by an act of Martyrdom. I have always been taught that the reason Jesus came was to bring us to God without our having to earn his love through works. I fell in love with this and would never want to give it up for anything (and I don’t see how anyone can live with any joy knowing that they could only go to heaven if they were good enough to merit it).
I never felt I had to bribe God with good works, but that my love for Him and my neighbor becomes more real when I show my love through works.

You mention Ignatius and that it “seems he was immensely anxious”. It sounds to me that in becoming closer to God one realizes more their own nothingness before Him and that everything good comes from Him. Being more aware of that, one would desire to do more and more for the Lord, to spread His love.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top