Absorbing Evil and Fr. Richard Rohr

[Julia_Mae]

It is possible to be specific by picking any personal relationship in which the friend is involved in some type of poor decision-making.

So you are just refusing to give me an example?

It would not be my responsibility to actually cause the change…I would want to “try” to model a different behavior to them, but that also would be a choice. It is all God’s battle…I hopefully would just be open to to be His instrument to help out, if that is what He wants…and that, of course, would be after much prayer…this goes hand in hand with the thread entitled, “The Perfect Joy of St.Francis”. It is a wonderful thread that discusses this type of approach to relationships…more of a “modelling” approach rather than “confrontational” or “arguing”.

But you are now talking about preaching the Gospel constantly, only using words if necessary. We were speaking about Rohr and “fusion.” I don’t understand what the fusion part is when fighting evil. This is why I asked for a simple, concrete example of encountering evil and how you practiced fusion and what happened.

If you’ve never done that, it’s fine, I’m just trying to make sense of what’s being said.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

You would naturally be confused if you looked online for a common definition of a word used in a religious context that has a specific meaning in the Church. Try the Catholic Encyclopedia. When you understand why fideism can be a sin, you’ll be less confused.

Thank you for the reference. I looked it up and found the article to be scholarly and cumbersome, so I didn’t make it far enough for a quick overview. Whatever it was you think I accused you of I wasn’t. I had a bit of a rant and might have gone off about a few old issues I have. That’s why I didn’t address my post to you.

You might try rereading Fink’s post to see *what he actually said *and then responding to that. Believe me, this Spirituality 101 you keep handing out, everyone ITT is way beyond it.

I’m sorry I’m so far behind. I’ll get my spiritual journey in order here right away.

Now, if you read what I wrote and go back and read what Fink wrote, can you paraphrase back to us, what we said? If you do this before you respond, then we might be able to have a more successful dialogue.

I’ll think about it. I’m getting called in the other room now.

Alan

 

[rainbow1]

So you are just refusing to give me an example?

But you are now talking about preaching the Gospel constantly, only using words if necessary. We were speaking about Rohr and “fusion.” I don’t understand what the fusion part is when fighting evil. This is why I asked for a simple, concrete example of encountering evil and how you practiced fusion and what happened.

If you’ve never done that, it’s fine, I’m just trying to make sense of what’s being said.

Julia Mae…
I was speaking about both “modelling” and also “fighting evil in a non-fingerpointing way”. They naturally work together. I think the best example that I can think of is right here on CAF. Although I am new to the forums here, I have seen many examples in various threads of people being very aggressive towards one another, pointing fingers at one another, being disrespectful to one another, belittling one another and actually doing the exact opposite of our Lord who hung on the cross due to similar behaviors directed towards Him in His lifetime. To make it worse, I have seen people do this in the supposed name of doing it for our Lord, which makes it all the more evil. It doesn’t matter that this is somewhat an anonymous forum, the person on the receiving end is always a human. Also, I have seen examples of people who have in return modelled Jesus’ Love, patience, endurance, and perserverance in sincerely trying to be kind, respectful and to “show” what Jesus taught. Despite the evil they have been confronted with, they chose repeatedly to “stay” in the situation, to try to help the others “see” what they are choosing to do. I suspect Rohr was using the term fusion to describe what the latter group of people chose to do. (I am not a Rohr expert, and I don’t think anyone here is, from what I can tell, and I think maybe if people have questions about him they could learn more about him, if that is what they want, by contacting him directly rather than talking about him .) This is the best specific example I can think of.
To also clarify something,as I mentionned in an earlier post, I think there does come a point when the person who tries to model God’s love can realize that the person chosing evil has such a hardened heart, that there is no reaching them despite numerous attempts. At that point it is just a “sitting” in abuse rather than a “reaching towards” another human. And Jesus did also describe shaking the dust off the feet…and moving onwards…
Joy and Peace!

 

[Julia_Mae]

I suspect Rohr was using the term fusion to describe what the latter group of people chose to do.

I’m sorry, I seem to have become confused, I thought you had responded to a question about Rohr’s assertion that we fight evil best with fusion and were explaining that. But now I see you were just making a separate point which you can’t actually say has anything to do with him. So, okay.

As for contacting him, I’m not sure one could. Celebrity types don’t usually respond to one on one communication or generally provide a vehicle for that. Perhaps as Alan is a fan, he might give that a try or explain this fusion thing for us both.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I found this article on Rohr, and thought that this statement from it might help make things clearer here:

Rohr echoed these same sentiments in his conference when he said that religious people often use religion to condemn others, particularly those who participate in abortion and homosexual activity. Religious people do this, he claimed, so that they do not have to hear the Gospel message and transform themselves. (Of course, Rohr is condemning those who condemn.)

I never heard of this man before this thread, which I came into to find out who he was and what he was teaching. There seem to be two people supporting him here. I have experienced both of them judging people here. Judging people while ranting as Alan says he was doing or using language with a “positive” veneer as rainbow1 did, is still judgement. So, all I have now is what the fruits are of listening to Rohr: becoming judgmental of others and presuming unChristian attitudes in people simply because they ask questions or challenge ideas.

Here is why I am confused: I thought Rohr was all about being able to challenge ideas?

I’m going to toss out an idea for y’all: it is quite possible that mature Christians have thoroughly studied and understood Church teaching and theology and have, of their own free will and because of transformative spiritual rebirth and encounter, have committed themselves to the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Church He founded.

I don’t think anyone can read the soul of another or that anyone has the ability to judge anyone in that way. I can say what I feel ITT, and that is completely discounted and judged by those who seem to be defending Rohr. If those are the fruits of his teachings, I think I will pass.

Of late, looking through a list of his writings, I seem to be excluded by him, anyway, as I am a woman and not a lesbian or transgendered. I also find that odd considering how much Rohr seems to dislike the Patriarchal structure of the Church and want the feminine side of God to be appreciated. See, this is so confusing. He spent a lot of time, apparently, speaking about how the Church had disenfranchised women, and then, as far as I can see, ejected us entirely from his ministry.

So, in my brief encounter with Rohr and some of his supporters I feel judged and rejected. I am not getting how that is related to spiritual rebirth or growth. In fact, it seems to me that the whole thread has gone off-topic, actually, as there is little being written about understanding this “absorbing evil.” I’m going to go see if I can find it myself, this afternoon and post about it. Perhaps some of what he says is free to read somewhere.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I can’t speak for his position on homosexuality. If we say that we are pushing these people out of the “hospital” rather than drawing them in, then we might have a discussion. If he is claiming that sexual deviancy itself it a Good Thing, then I might have to let that one go as one of his “quirks” that I’ve never really heard through his daily emails.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Judging people while ranting as Alan says he was doing or using language with a “positive” veneer as rainbow1 did, is still judgement. So, all I have now is what the fruits are of listening to Rohr: becoming judgmental of others and presuming unChristian attitudes in people simply because they ask questions or challenge ideas.

Consider your judgment of me. I tried to avoid coming out and saying it, but when I get grandiose and defensive like that, I watch carefully and step up the prayer life, so that it doesn’t turn into mania. I am disabled due to mental disability, which is why I have time to sit around and argue about religion half the day. Neither I nor my doctor knows what causes me to get like that, but I recognize it when I see it and believe me, it will NOT turn into anything more than it was already. When I saw your negative reaction, I thought, “oh, gee, what did I write?” I saw that I was defending against attacks that aren’t made. Early warning sign noted and heeded.

Alan

 

[Julia_Mae]

Consider your judgment of me. I tried to avoid coming out and saying it, but when I get grandiose and defensive like that, I watch carefully and step up the prayer life, so that it doesn’t turn into mania. I am disabled due to mental disability, which is why I have time to sit around and argue about religion half the day. Neither I nor my doctor knows what causes me to get like that, but I recognize it when I see it and believe me, it will NOT turn into anything more than it was already. When I saw your negative reaction, I thought, “oh, gee, what did I write?” I saw that I was defending against attacks that aren’t made. Early warning sign noted and heeded.

Alan

Well, Alan, it sounds like you and I are in the same boat, as I’ve been disabled for almost twenty years for the same reason. This is what I know about myself and maybe it will make sense to you, too. The problem with our problem is: we make things all about us. The great thing about our Church and the message of Christ is: He tells us to make things all about the other person.

I have to much admire your ability to go back and look at what you said because my feelings were hurt.

You know, I really did want to understand what Rohr was saying about “absorbing evil” because I think it could be very dangerous if misunderstood, even if what he is saying is reasonable. And, as people very vulnerable to evil, you and I need to be even more careful, I think.

Fideism, briefly, is when a person simply believes because someone said so. That is, they’ll go along with anything that comes from a church authority figure just because they say it without examining their own conscience. So, if some rogue element starts telling them to go burn heretics, they might go along with that. Not a good thing. We all need to decide things for ourselves and take our own responsibility for what we choose.

But, if we are going to go against the Church, we have to really think it through and look for guidance. Because for 2000 years the Church as a body has retained the teachings of Jesus Christ for us. So, we have to be careful about putting our own thoughts and ideas ahead of the whole history of Christian theology.

I’m more interested in what you think about that, than I am in what Rohr thinks about anything.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I have to much admire your ability to go back and look at what you said because my feelings were hurt.

Thank you. My doctor uses my wife as an observer to help him know how I’m doing between office visits. I return the favor, as we meet him together.

But, if we are going to go against the Church, we have to really think it through and look for guidance. Because for 2000 years the Church as a body has retained the teachings of Jesus Christ for us. So, we have to be careful about putting our own thoughts and ideas ahead of the whole history of Christian theology.

I’m more interested in what you think about that, than I am in what Rohr thinks about anything.

Nice. Where do I start? I see the church like a heart of purity and love, surrounded by a tough shell. The shell has protected from intruders, while the heart gave it a reason to live century after century.

I think we need to see more focus on how to love, to really love as described in 1 Cor 13, and less on arguments about literal facts and teachings. Too much emphasis on fear of hell or loss of heaven, not enough “abba, Father.”

There are a lot of aspects to the “tough shell” of the church that I think apply today just like they did in Jesus’s time. Some of the same haughty attitudes toward those outside the clique, whatever group or sub-group they identify with.

The good news is that at least the Catholic schools are actually teaching church teachings, and even a little Bible, which is a vast improvement over my Catholic grade school, which taught us nothing useful. Next step … get people started thinking about their own personal spiritual journeys and how they’re going to get from following literal rules to having transformed minds and hearts and being guided by the Spirit within them? Tell them about John of the Cross and St Teresa and let’s not forget, for those who are interested, the Cloud of the Unknowing. Let’s use what we know about mysticism to help people find their way.

Alan

 

[Julia_Mae]

Thank you. My doctor uses my wife as an observer to help him know how I’m doing between office visits. I return the favor, as we meet him together.

I’m very happy to hear you have a wife standing by you, someone you can trust and occasionally surrender your judgement to. I didn’t have that until recently. A reality check-in person.

Nice. Where do I start? I see the church like a heart of purity and love, surrounded by a tough shell. The shell has protected from intruders, while the heart gave it a reason to live century after century.

That’s interesting. Because I see it in a similar way, when I had, as a convert, to deal with the ages of power and the corruption that accompanied that. But all through those times, that’s when Teresa of Avila and Saint John of the Cross were experiencing and writing the great guides to that spirituality you mention.

I think we need to see more focus on how to love, to really love as described in 1 Cor 13, and less on arguments about literal facts and teachings. Too much emphasis on fear of hell or loss of heaven, not enough “abba, Father.”

I guess it depends on where you are. I was very blessed when I converted, I came into a Parish full of strong prayers and a very active spirituality with a Pastor who constantly emphasized the loving and accepting heart of Christian faith and practice. The place was full of miracles, and all kinds of people were openly accepted. But I’ll tell you a funny thing about that. The Pastor was an old Italian guy who was a few years from retirement. And while he was so spiritual and fostered that, he also wouldn’t allow any color but white for an altar cloth, was exceeding particular about getting the Mass exactly as it was to be according to the GIRM, and had firm boundaries for behaviors. Yet, the music group that sang on the week-ends we privately called the Lyrical Lesbians. Father didn’t care about that, he just made sure the music wasn’t too radical or unCatholic.

I never heard a homily about sin. Or abortion. Or hell.

When I moved east, I found some Church I didn’t even recognize, full of suspicion and cliquishness and rigidity. I don’t know about you, but for me, radical change is very very hard to adjust to. It’s part of the issue. I struggled so much with feeling angry and abandoned. But, there were still prayer groups, still Marian devotions, still ways to express and grow in Spirit. The thing was, before it had all been given to me so easily. Now, I had to look for it on my own. I wasn’t very successful.

(this is too long, so I’ll finish it in the next post)

 

[Julia_Mae]

There are a lot of aspects to the “tough shell” of the church that I think apply today just like they did in Jesus’s time. Some of the same haughty attitudes toward those outside the clique, whatever group or sub-group they identify with.

I hear this. Especially in some places. But now we are talking about people, individuals. The Church writes great things about ecumenism and the value found in other faiths and acts on that. We are shifting gears after a couple thousand years, and while it seems slow to us, moving to fast just strips the gears and the car goes out of control or stops entirely. So, I struggle not to judge those I find judgmental and also try to have faith that God knows how much we can do and how fast and has a plan, that doesn’t necessarily include sending me personal bulletins.

If you find out about the volunteerism and outreach in your community from your Church, I am betting you’ll find they just serve the soup in the soup kitchen, they don’t try and convert. . You donate clothes, no one has to be Catholic to get them. We delivered food baskets, we didn’t ask anyone what faith they were. OTOH, I don’t know a thing about Witchita, I can only speak to what Denver was like.

The good news is that at least the Catholic schools are actually teaching church teachings, and even a little Bible, which is a vast improvement over my Catholic grade school, which taught us nothing useful. Next step … get people started thinking about their own personal spiritual journeys and how they’re going to get from following literal rules to having transformed minds and hearts and being guided by the Spirit within them?

I hear you and I want you to hear me. You don’t know what’s in their hearts. Some people don’t actually need a lot of spiritual formation. And it’s okay for them to follow rules in obedience because, if you read a lot of spiritual writings, obedience is one of the most spiritual of disciplines. Some people are Marthas, they serve. Some people are simply not able to grasp anything much beyond some rules and a goal to get to Heaven. And that’s okay. We need to accept all kinds of folks. I believe God meets us where we are. Just as Christ humbles Himself to become human, God loves us so much that He came to get a wretch like me and drag me to safety in His Church.

What I am actually hearing you say is that your spiritual needs aren’t being met. I get that. I told our new Pastor I was looking for a Spiritual Director and he said he didn’t have time. (He didn’t even notice I hadn’t actually asked him, just stated a need.) So should I give up and be mad that this isn’t his thing? I’m sure he has other talents the parish needs. I will keep searching. I will ask God to help me. He will. And I will volunteer to stuff envelopes, because no Parish has enough envelope stuffers, believe me!

Tell them about John of the Cross and St Teresa and let’s not forget, for those who are interested, the Cloud of the Unknowing. Let’s use what we know about mysticism to help people find their way.

These things are available all over the Internet, in prayer groups and in 3rd orders, if you feel called to that sort of spirituality. Contemplation is a calling and a gift. Not everyone needs that. You may feel called. You may find a prayer group, a retreat house, or a contemplative order nearby.

Here, try this: christianperfection.info/index.php . It is:

The summary of a course in ascetical and mystical theology given for over 20 years at the Angelicum in Rome

I’ve been mentally ill since I was two years old. I’m almost 62. I think I might have a few years experience to share with you, and maybe make your very long road, and it is, a bit easier, I hope. In love, you think of the other person and what they need first. In faith, you think of God and also yourself. It’s not about what anyone else is doing. It’s always about your own journey. The closer you get to God, the more Love enters by Grace.

Any time we are thinking about what’s wrong with anything, including ourselves, we are not thinking of the Perfection that is God. The thoughts come without our wanting them. But you will find, more and more, you can choose what to think. They still come, but you can banish them. Lock them in a drawer in your mind. Look to the Light of God, grab your Rosary and hang on for dear life. Prayer is the greatest of all therapies.

God bless you abundantly, Alan. It’s so hard to live inside our heads. Please tell me what you think of what I said. Even if you think it’s stupid.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I hear you and I want you to hear me. You don’t know what’s in their hearts. Some people don’t actually need a lot of spiritual formation. And it’s okay for them to follow rules in obedience because, if you read a lot of spiritual writings, obedience is one of the most spiritual of disciplines. Some people are Marthas, they serve. Some people are simply not able to grasp anything much beyond some rules and a goal to get to Heaven. And that’s okay. We need to accept all kinds of folks. I believe God meets us where we are. Just as Christ humbles Himself to become human, God loves us so much that He came to get a wretch like me and drag me to safety in His Church.

Some people are Marthas, and for myself sometimes I do Mary, other times Martha.

I may not know what’s in their hearts directly, but they reveal a great deal of it with their lips, especially those whom I found most difficult in Real Life – parish lay leaders. These people literally refused to even consider whether Jesus would approve of any of our actual “pastoral” policies. I’m not guessing or estimating; I was there. I took the training and had the knowledge and they didn’t. I was VP of the parish council but godly ideas just didn’t fly. Literally. Refused to even consider God in any decision whatsoever. I got scolded by one pastor for even bringing a stewardship manual to a parish council meeting – the diocesan manual we claimed to follow but actually were at odds at all 20 items on checklists of correct and incorrect stewardship. These people are a hindrance to the Church’s mission, even though they are wonderful at putting out empty mission statements that mean nothing because there is no theology or even confessed love of God to use for any sort of guidance in accomplishing them, and no measures to see if we’re actually accomplishing them.

And as far as what I consider the “average pew sitter” I speak from my own experience and that of visiting with other members. I talk to others about religion way more than the average person does, and I never even heard of spiritual journey until I was 42 (I’m 52 now). Catholic grade school, for me, was a crock as far as internals but great on externals – such as the precise way to walk in the Communion line. I bet if you took a survey of 10 people around you in Church, fewer than half of them could find Romans in a Bible without using the index or just flipping through.

What I am actually hearing you say is that your spiritual needs aren’t being met. I get that. I told our new Pastor I was looking for a Spiritual Director and he said he didn’t have time. (He didn’t even notice I hadn’t actually asked him, just stated a need.) So should I give up and be mad that this isn’t his thing? I’m sure he has other talents the parish needs. I will keep searching. I will ask God to help me. He will. And I will volunteer to stuff envelopes, because no Parish has enough envelope stuffers, believe me!

This isn’t what I’m saying at all. My spiritual needs have been far more than met. My spiritual development with the initial counseling of the wonderful Fr. Pecht who knew both psychology and theology and kept in touch with leading experts in each field. It pains me to see scores of people fed spiritual “baby food,” and knowing how they are being lied to by those in charge, who put a false face on God even as they bring Him to the people.

BTW, yes, my wife and kids and I stuff envelopes, and fairly often. Julie is on the “finance council” which does a lot of damage in the name of true stewardship – and yes I know the difference and yes they refuse to hear it (a previous pastor paid for me to take off work and receive training in the diocese policy and bring it back – but it fell to politics when that pastor retired) – but at least now we have a plant who sees what’s going on directly. I was VP or president council and pres. of Home/School assn, Synod liaison for the parish to the diocese, used to be in charge of the technology purchases at our school. Our current pastor is very good to our family and so is the school staff.

It isn’t about me. It’s about all of us. I look around and cry because most of these lay leaders and pew-sitters are oblivious to a whole world they don’t know about – a world that it is Our Sacred Duty as members of Christ’s body to bring them into. Maybe contemplative prayer isn’t for everyone, but the CCC seems to think it is, by use of the word “should” in the the context of prayer “should go further” than meditation, into true Union with God. (CCC2708)

These things are available all over the Internet, in prayer groups and in 3rd orders, if you feel called to that sort of spirituality. Contemplation is a calling and a gift. Not everyone needs that. You may feel called. You may find a prayer group, a retreat house, or a contemplative order nearby.

Yes, I have found these treasures. CA was the real start of my “theological” development; my “spiritual” development began July 11, 2001, at my first meeting with my SD who, BTW, was quick to explain to me why everyone, doctors included, acted so stupidly and crazily around me – the answer is they are all too specialized – there are mental, physical, social, sexual, spiritual, and emotional components of a person but experts are only trained in maybe two of them at the most – tend to look at everything through only their own narrow point of view, often missing what would be obvious to a different specialist.
(sorry – continued on next post)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued)

I’ve been mentally ill since I was two years old. I’m almost 62. I think I might have a few years experience to share with you, and maybe make your very long road, and it is, a bit easier, I hope. In love, you think of the other person and what they need first. In faith, you think of God and also yourself. It’s not about what anyone else is doing. It’s always about your own journey. The closer you get to God, the more Love enters by Grace.

My own journey is doing fine, but only because ten years ago my wife knew where to point me to get me started. I have been in positions of church leadership, and I’ve experienced all of this firsthand. It is our job to feed Jesus’s sheep, but we have so perverted the face of God and Jesus even in the way we communicate with fellow parishioners, that it is the exception, rather than the rule, when someone breaks out of it. We bandy about the word “accountability” as a weapon against True stewardship – the administration of which is my largest single area of concern as far as day to day workings of the parish.

One time, after several years of trying, while I was VP of the pastoral council, the president of the council (also president of finance committee at the time) asked me to help him, outside of a meeting, to understand what I was talking about. I showed him in black and white the policy we claimed to be following but were actually 180 degrees out of phase on, and suddenly his eyes opened wide and he said, “yes, I see what you’ve been trying to tell us.” What was it that won him over? The statement, “true stewardship is based on the individual’s need to give, not on the parish’s need to receive.” Gosh, that one statement alone, if taken to heart, would go a long way into helping the problem. The irony? Two weeks later that guy moved out of the parish and I was back with no allies at all for Jesus, in those members of the parish leadership who dared speak up anyway.

God bless you abundantly, Alan. It’s so hard to live inside our heads. Please tell me what you think of what I said. Even if you think it’s stupid.

Not stupid at all. Just an update – I’ve been almost completely symptom-free for almost three months now (my earlier aggressiveness in this thread notwithstanding). I have received wonderful healing, mentally, and much of it was due to spiritual development and prayer and wonderful people to support me. I have online friends that are very sensitive to my writing and they are on notice to tell me if they see anything manic. If I get depressed, I don’t need anybody to tell me that.

No, life is good. I’m so happy, joyful, peaceful, and in general filled with experiences of spiritual fruit (except notably self-control ) that I can hardly sit still and not scream from the mountaintops. I still feel a little burned to be marginalized and living off SS handouts when I had an MS in engineering and 20 years of promising career, bought house to raise six kids all while I still had a job, etc. but it is clear that I can’t rewrite my past without risking upsetting this wonderful spiritual life I claim to have. My onset day of disability was June 8, 2001.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

OK, rants aside, I guess my message is, that I am well and very thankful to the Lord and to the Catholics who have played their roles in bringing me to this level of peace. I wish I didn’t feel so “lucky” about it though – Vatican II as I understand it, reinforced Church teaching that “holiness” is available to all – both lay and religious. I say let’s get on with moving from “rule following” to “Spirit-led.” In general, since the HS is the helper we have alive and with us even today, as a gift from God, I think we need to pay more attention to this Person of the Trinity than we do. Too many people get skittish when you try to talk about Holy Spirit – discuss with others at your own risk.

Now we have the technology to plant spiritual unification “seeds” into minds across the world as soon as we click “submit reply.” Everything we say, as long as we say it out of love for the Church, for God, and each other as ourselves, then I think it has potential to bear fruit. Once it has been read it can’t be unsaid. Countered, but not unsaid. You never know who’ll you’ll touch – whether posters or lurkers – but it reminds me of a t-shirt I saw on a guy, “When you read this I’ll be in control of your mind for three seconds.” Spooky, isn’t it?

Alan

 

[Julia_Mae]

Thank you for explaining things to me. I think I’m beginning to understand why you would find Rohr so appealing. And I don’t disagree with anything you say as far as the situation in your Parish. We all watched the new Pastor bankrupt ours and essentially physically trash our church. I had a “social justice” group experience where the guy leading it had his own ideas and refused to listen to the wisdom of a woman who spent years in a third world country working with the mightily impoverished. She was trying to speak to needs of the spirit, he couldn’t see beyond his own agenda.

I also think we have things in common. We are smart people who are joiners and fixers. We can see problems and see solutions. We are also something else that we share with Rohr: we are judgers. And this is how we lead ourselves into sin. “Ranting” is a symptom for us. It’s time to stop.

OK, rants aside, I guess my message is, that I am well and very thankful to the Lord and to the Catholics who have played their roles in bringing me to this level of peace. I wish I didn’t feel so “lucky” about it though – Vatican II as I understand it, reinforced Church teaching that “holiness” is available to all – both lay and religious. I say let’s get on with moving from “rule following” to “Spirit-led.” In general, since the HS is the helper we have alive and with us even today, as a gift from God, I think we need to pay more attention to this Person of the Trinity than we do. Too many people get skittish when you try to talk about Holy Spirit – discuss with others at your own risk.

I want you to objectively look at your posts ITT and see how little you talk about the Holy Spirit. See how much of your time and energy are taken up with your anger and frustration. See how that led to a disconnect with someone and to you actually hurting someone - that would be me, albeit not much - and with pure intellect you should be able to know something of an important spiritual nature: the Liar uses our propensity for fixing to lead us to sin. It’s ego. It’s self-directed no matter how much we think we are talking about someone else’s benefit.

We can identify true issues and actual problems and see where change is definitely called for. But God already knows all of that and doesn’t need us to tell Him. It’s His Church, not ours and He is taking care of things and He would like to take care of us.

I can read Rohr’s work and see all kinds of things that are good in it. But those things aren’t what attract you, because all of that is easily found already in the Church. I suspect it’s the resonance with his dissidence, his criticism of the Church.

If you still have a spiritual director or can find one, I’d like you to talk to him or her about this: the closer we get to God and the more spiritually awakened we are the harder the Liar fights to mess us up. You and I and people like us are a sort of secret Spiritual army, or can be, if we ever get through boot camp. There are forces who want you to desert. Do not doubt it.

If God magically made you the King of your Parish so you could make anything happen you wanted, it would not be as useful to the faithful as you becoming dedicated to a serious prayer life. You and I are in a position few others can be in: we have time to pray. Really pray. But we have to surrender these egos, we have to act in the faith we claim, and believe in the power of that prayer. We have to believe Jesus when He says: “When I am raised up, you will do greater things than these.”

God put us here with the spiritual awareness and time. But we are also very vulnerable to attack and the only possible defense is complete surrender to God in humility. Every bit of what you say can be exactly true and it’s just fodder for the forces that wants to keep you angry, self-righteous and in sin. You must let this go.

I swear to you I have BTDT - and I want you to use this talent you have of objectively assessing yourself, and see what the fruits of your anger are. I want you to do that because we all need you. Please, Alan. Please do not follow someone who is only feeding your anger and making you feel it’s okay. That fact is: every time we feel this way, even when we are correct, we are wrong.

Think about finding a 3rd order to join and making the commitment to prayer and humility. In a few years, with study and prayer, perhaps, perhaps you can start leading some prayer groups or giving some classes in the kind of spirituality you long for and help others find that road. But the act of prayer itself, is what will be the most powerful help you can give.

And please pray for me to find the way to make that same type pf commitment.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m an engineer, not a scientist. I don’t need to know the “absolute” truth about anything; just know enough about truth to be able to come up with a model I can use to plan for a fix, like you said we’re fixers.

As far as telling someone they are wrong, that hurts me to do it and I hate to do it. But you know what? When someone can’t hear they are wrong when it is clear they are, then there is no reaching out to them. For myself, I’d rather be corrected than to be in error, although that makes me unusual I guess.

Here’s a fellow engineer who can understand what I’m saying …

Alan

 

[Julia_Mae]

Here’s a fellow engineer who can understand what I’m saying …

Alan

I get that. I spent a lot of my life doing it.

So, how’s that working out for you? Worked out like the comic for me.

It isn’t our job to fix them.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I get that. I spent a lot of my life doing it.

So, how’s that working out for you? Worked out like the carton for me.

It isn’t our job to fix them.

Sometimes it has been my job, though. That’s what hurts is when I’m told to do something but there are political roadblocks. One problem is that authority and responsibility often don’t go hand in hand. I can hardly have responsibility for something if I don’t have the authority to make it happen – also a problem if you give somebody authority but they don’t have to answer for it. This is not just the church with this problem, but every bureaucracy. I’m the guy who likes to “know what’s going on in the trenches” because that’s where everything has to happen or all platitudes are useless.

Actually, the time I’m spending here on CAF is helping me converse better with people with strongly held conflicting beliefs, and helping me learn what the Church teaches as well as what I personally think of things.

Alan

 

[Julia_Mae]

Sometimes it has been my job, though. That’s what hurts is when I’m told to do something but there are political roadblocks. One problem is that authority and responsibility often don’t go hand in hand. I can hardly have responsibility for something if I don’t have the authority to make it happen – also a problem if you give somebody authority but they don’t have to answer for it. This is not just the church with this problem, but every bureaucracy. I’m the guy who likes to “know what’s going on in the trenches” because that’s where everything has to happen or all platitudes are useless.

Actually, the time I’m spending here on CAF is helping me converse better with people with strongly held conflicting beliefs, and helping me learn what the Church teaches as well as what I personally think of things.

Alan

I was just coming to leave something for you when I found this. I was reading a page on the link I left you above someplace, and I found the perfect description of my most essential cause of sin:

Spiritual or intellectual pride, which still subsists, inspires excessive attachment to personal judgment, to one’s own way of seeing, feeling, sympathizing, willing. From it are born jealousy, secret ambition, or again great authoritarianism, unless one is by temperament inclined to the contrary defect, that is, to excessive indulgence and to weakness toward those who oppress others. Here too, may often be remarked a lack of promptness and generosity in obedience, or, on the contrary, a servility inspired by self-love. Frequent also are faults against charity through jealousy, envy, slander, discord, contention.

At this stage may reappear many deviations, which seriously trouble the life of the soul. The root of the higher faculties of intellect and will is still deeply tainted with pride, personal judgment, and self-will. The divine light and the will of God do not yet reign there uncontested; far from it. These stains, which are in the root of the higher faculties, have, in some cases, been there for a long time; they may become encrusted as they grow old and may profoundly alter the character by turning it away from true intimacy with God. Thence are born many defamations and at times most grievous divisions among those who should work together for the good of souls.

It’s my opinion from all you have shared, that this relates strongly to you, also. It’s hard to be the take charge get it done person, and then be disabled. Especially the way we are, because what we do is try to recreate what we had to keep being who we were.

But God took us from there and placed us somewhere else. If we aren’t being who we were and doing what we were good at, then what are we? I don’t know how much longer I’m going to be here, as I am looking to start a new phase of my own spiritual growth and giving up forums might be part of that at some point. What I know for myself is: ego and pride are really about fear. It could be that in losing what we thought we were, we’ll find what we really are and that will be God’s workmanship, which has to be be greater than any of our puny efforts.

“Lord, take from me everything that hinders me from going to You. Give me all that will lead me to You. Take me from myself and give me to Yourself.”

~~St Nicholas Flue

 

[ringil]

I Don’t Agree with your assertion that Fr. Rohr is so bad. Some of the so called Orthodox priests and preachers, i wouldn’t trust with a ten foot… Look at the Irish and American Scandals— many of these characters were orthodox types. I don’t agree with every single thing Rohr has ever said… but let him speak. Thomas Merton was silenced also, as were many visionaries.

I’m not a huge Rohr fan but you have a point. Look at Corapi.