Abstaining from voting

[eucharisteo]

I am in a situation where I don’t support either candidate. I believe that candidate A, is being pushed by the Catholic Church, but acting like it’s not telling us how to vote. That sounds much like a police officer saying you can’t drink as long as you don’t drive. Then he turns around and arrests you for public intoxication. It’s nothing less that a lie in the form of a con. Now just say what you mean and mean what you say. That’s all I’m asking. So the Cathoic Church is simply saying if we don’t vote for the “pro-life” candidate we are in deep mortal sin. It doesn’t matter what the other issues are because of the way it’s stated. That is deeply dishonest I’m afraid and it hurts my heart that my Church would use such deceptive practices to influnce the vote and act like it’s not. That’s just a lie and that is what I’m hurt by. I’ve been hurt by leaders in the church before and this is just another way of being lied to much like some other issues in our recent history that caused me to run from the Church.

Now that I got that off my shoulders. I can’t get myself to say candidate “A” is pro-life. Everything I’ve read is mixed up on the issue and indicates that his voting record is not truly pro-life. There is no way I can vote for candidate “B” and don’t need to explain why. What I do know is that I used to like candidate “A” because of my perception of him. But after seeing certain things in his Historical service, I find myself wondering if he’s going to jump the fence on an issue again. So why vote on a gamble? I have no reason to believe he’ll actually do what they’ve be allegedly saying they’ll do for over 2 decades. Nothing has changed. I also believe that historically the other party seems to make things better in many ways for those in need and even abortion seems to go down. But that is not clear either. Still, I can’t justify voting for anyone that says they’re pro-choice.

To the point: is it plausible to write in a candidate of my own choosing? And/or would abstaining from voting for conscience sake be acceptable?

Kick it around. Not trying to argue politics… just moral standing based on records and choice of actions. BTW: historically, I’ve always tended to vote “A”.

 

[UndertheRadar]

I am sorry you feel hurt by the Catholic Church but the truth is that she has not lied to you. Is it not her goal to guide us to heaven by informing us on how to live? The church has not told you to vote for a person, but rather a cause.

 

[eucharisteo]

Let me put it this way…
I confess to almighty God and you my brothers ans sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in what I HAVE DONE AND IN WHAT I HAVE FAILED TO DO…

What’s the difference. That’s like the military taught us. The Geneva convention says you can shoot to kill the enemy with a 50 caliber weapon but you can shoot his gear. No difference. So say what you really mean to say and stop playing the games… not you literally.

I am sorry you feel hurt by the Catholic Church but the truth is that she has not lied to you. Is it not her goal to guide us to heaven by informing us on how to live? The church has not told you to vote for a person, but rather a cause.

That’s where the gray matter begins to decay. We are being backed into the corner and told to vote only for the pro-life candidate. That is the deception. The Church has not lied to me as you said, but the hierarchy has deeply disappointed me in not standing so clearly and said that you can not vote for “B” in good conscience as a faithful Catholic. That is misdirecting and misleading.

My pain is private but pertinant to my path as I’ve returned to the faith after believing all Catholics would burn in ther eternal place…not to good one either. It took many years to come to an understanding…discovery of the ancient church fathers that changed my life. I’ve always had a conservative opinion on the issues. That hasn’t changed. If I said the Church is lying I meant the leaders are misrepresenting the reality that they ARE TELLING US WHO TO VOTE FOR. You can’t have one without the other.

Besides you didn’t answer the real question. What about writing in a candidate or abstaining?

 

[blessedtoo]

Let me put it this way…
I confess to almighty God and you my brothers ans sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault, in what I HAVE DONE AND IN WHAT I HAVE FAILED TO DO…

What’s the difference. That’s like the military taught us. The Geneva convention says you can shoot to kill the enemy with a 50 caliber weapon but you can shoot his gear. No difference. So say what you really mean to say and stop playing the games… not you literally.

That’s where the gray matter begins to decay. We are being backed into the corner and told to vote only for the pro-life candidate. That is the deception. The Church has not lied to me as you said, but the hierarchy has deeply disappointed me in not standing so clearly and said that you can not vote for “B” in good conscience as a faithful Catholic. That is misdirecting and misleading.

My pain is private but pertinant to my path as I’ve returned to the faith after believing all Catholics would burn in ther eternal place…not to good one either. It took many years to come to an understanding…discovery of the ancient church fathers that changed my life. I’ve always had a conservative opinion on the issues. That hasn’t changed. If I said the Church is lying I meant the leaders are misrepresenting the reality that they ARE TELLING US WHO TO VOTE FOR. You can’t have one without the other.

Besides you didn’t answer the real question. What about writing in a candidate or abstaining?

I’ll answer your question first. You may absolutely write in a candidate. If your properly formed conscience prevents you from voting for any candidate, than you have fulfilled your obligation as a faithful Catholic.

Despite how it may seem, the Church Herself does not support or promote any candidate or party. You grievance, it would seem, is with the rather flawed choices you have been offered during this election cycle. The Church has outlined, pretty clearly, the most important issues for a Catholic and has specified that in this election, as with all elections, there is no one PERFECT candidate and that it is likely we will have to settle for the one who will do the least harm. For you, that may mean writing in a candidates name. For someone else, perhaps it means voting third party. For others it may mean going with the obvious major party.

It sounds like you have done an excellent job of discerning what you need to do to follow your conscience and stay true to your Catholic faith. Good for you! Don’t be discouraged!

God bless!

 

[Oakleaf]

Is any political act perfect? Are there any saints among politicians?

We live in an imperfect world and face imperfect choices every day. Most of the time it is shades of grey. Live in the world but not “of” it. Do what you think is right.

 

[Newbie2]

I am in a situation where I don’t support either candidate. I believe that candidate A, is being pushed by the Catholic Church, but acting like it’s not telling us how to vote. That sounds much like a police officer saying you can’t drink as long as you don’t drive. Then he turns around and arrests you for public intoxication. It’s nothing less that a lie in the form of a con. Now just say what you mean and mean what you say. That’s all I’m asking. So the Cathoic Church is simply saying if we don’t vote for the “pro-life” candidate we are in deep mortal sin. It doesn’t matter what the other issues are because of the way it’s stated. That is deeply dishonest I’m afraid and it hurts my heart that my Church would use such deceptive practices to influnce the vote and act like it’s not. That’s just a lie and that is what I’m hurt by. I’ve been hurt by leaders in the church before and this is just another way of being lied to much like some other issues in our recent history that caused me to run from the Church.

Now that I got that off my shoulders. I can’t get myself to say candidate “A” is pro-life. Everything I’ve read is mixed up on the issue and indicates that his voting record is not truly pro-life. There is no way I can vote for candidate “B” and don’t need to explain why. What I do know is that I used to like candidate “A” because of my perception of him. But after seeing certain things in his Historical service, I find myself wondering if he’s going to jump the fence on an issue again. So why vote on a gamble? I have no reason to believe he’ll actually do what they’ve be allegedly saying they’ll do for over 2 decades. Nothing has changed. I also believe that historically the other party seems to make things better in many ways for those in need and even abortion seems to go down. But that is not clear either. Still, I can’t justify voting for anyone that says they’re pro-choice.

To the point: is it plausible to write in a candidate of my own choosing? And/or would abstaining from voting for conscience sake be acceptable?

Kick it around. Not trying to argue politics… just moral standing based on records and choice of actions. BTW: historically, I’ve always tended to vote “A”.

That’s not exactly what’s being said.

If that were to be the only clear difference between the two candidates, then yes, it would apply. But as you said, it’s not always clear. There are other social policy issues to consider, as well as the liklihood of the candidate actually having any influence on that social policy.

The Church does not expect us to be one-issue voters. She knows that it’s a complex choice sometimes, and that while we need to take into account the stand of the candidate on the general issue on the sanctity of life, we also need to take into account just ***how ***that issue gets played out in politics.

When you’ve done your research, and used your conscience and still cannot vote for either candidate, it’s perfectly acceptable to do a write-in, as long as that write-in is elligible…yourself, for example. Writing in “Mickey Mouse” or the like, methinks, is silly and a waste of the people who do the tallying’s time…which is paid for by you and me.

 

[StCsDavid]

So the Cathoic Church is simply saying if we don’t vote for the “pro-life” candidate we are in deep mortal sin. It doesn’t matter what the other issues are because of the way it’s stated. That is deeply dishonest I’m afraid and it hurts my heart that my Church would use such deceptive practices to influnce the vote and act like it’s not.

The Church, as a non-profit, tax exempt entity has to be careful not to overtly endorse one candidate over the other.

Just because abortion has become common place in America does not decrease its horrific evil. In some regards the reality that we accept the fact that 4,000 babies will be murdered, today, in America, and we can still sip our morning coffee with a clear conscience demonstrates the gravity of just how far we as a culture have fallen. We wring our hands over the loss of 4,000 soldiers in Iraq while we, as a culture, slaughter 4,000 of the most innocent and vulnerable citizens…every day.

Given that reality, how does one truly expect the Church to be silent and not encourage her children to choose a candidate that is more in line with her teaching? This is not an issue equal in importance to the economy, health care, or gay marriage. People are wholesale killing the most innocent members of this body of Christ. Help me understand which issue rises to greater importance?

 

[Contarini]

I am in a situation where I don’t support either candidate. I believe that candidate A, is being pushed by the Catholic Church, but acting like it’s not telling us how to vote. That sounds much like a police officer saying you can’t drink as long as you don’t drive. Then he turns around and arrests you for public intoxication. It’s nothing less that a lie in the form of a con. Now just say what you mean and mean what you say. That’s all I’m asking. So the Cathoic Church is simply saying if we don’t vote for the “pro-life” candidate we are in deep mortal sin.

I’m pretty sure you are misunderstanding the Catholic Church’s position here. You are probably spending too much time listening to the right-wing folks on this board and too little listening to your bishops.

The Catholic Church never, ever says that you have to vote for a particular candidate. Some Catholics would say that voting for a particular candidate might be wrong, but there is of course no reason why you can’t abstain for voting or cast a “protest vote” for a third party or write-in candidate. Why on earth would you even wonder about this? Furthermore, probably most Catholics, including as far as I can see most American bishops, would not say straight out that voting for a “pro-choice” candidate is wrong. Rather, the Catholic Church says that you have to have “proportional reasons” for voting for a candidate who supports an immoral position. Whether you have such reasons is up to your conscience. (This is where *some *conservative bishops have put some pressure on, asking people to think long and hard about whether there can really be any reasons that would balance the abortion issue.) In particular, if you think that the “pro-life” candidate is not going to do much for the prolife position, that would cause other issues to take on more importance (I disagree with you on the particulars of this campaign–I think we do have a genuinely prolife option this year–but that’s not the point here.)

Edwin

 

[po18guy]

In this election cycle, perhaps more so than any in recent memory, the choice for life is crystal clear. The tickets are: “Death” and “Life”. There is nothing - no social issue, no environmental issue, no issue of the economy that rises near the importance of human life.

Neither candidate was even near my first choice. I have substantial issues with one, and insurmountable issues with the other. But, it remains life vs. death. With our Lord watching, and cradling the souls of aborted babies in his arms, it’s easy to pull one lever over the other.

 

[eucharisteo]

Well, po18guy, I hope the 18 isn’t for your age because if you believe that the choices are ever so clear now, wait until you’ve been disappointed over a lifetime of voting to be deeply disappointed by actions taken by your candidate. No doubt I will most likely vote conservative. However, I refuse to public support him as a Pro-Life candidate.

I read online where there were roughly 137,000 Iraqi deaths caused from the war, not just our 4100 soldiers, not to mention those 40,000 with disabling injuries. Don’t white wash something that is still gravely disordered by reducing Muslim casualties to unimportant. That’s why it must be said clearly…that neither candidate is really pro-life. Frankly, I hope the one does what I see…pro-life that incorporates and pushes for being against abortion even in the case of rape and incest. That actually motivated me when I heard it. It’s almost like his croanies are hearing my private thoughts.

So, in spite of the HORRORS of the 4000 babies killed in a day. It is still deeply disorder to trivialize other people’s lives as well. It’s not a one or the other. It’s a both and scenario in my world. When your children, wife or husband is the one being killed then it means the world to you. I’ve been adversely affected by war. One casualty came years after Vietnam in the form of suicide. My other brother has tried twice. This does matter whether you accept it or not. what is the suicide and murder rate today compared to previous years? It all ties in together somehow…we live in a culture of death. Ridding the world from abortion may be the right step to move away from this culture of death. But I believe the culture of death actually existed in a different form prior to abortion being legalized. Of course children are the most inocent and thus should be protected above adults in my opinon. But how dare anyone trivialize the deaths of other people’s children. Are you not aware of the exodus of Christians in that region? Let’s try to remember those beyond our borders. America is one of the worse murdering countries around. It’s like Rome all over again. I’m a soldier and proud of my country. But my Catholic faith comes first and my Catholiciity reaches beyond country borders, race and ethnic groups.

 

[po18guy]

Well, po18guy, I hope the 18 isn’t for your age because if you believe that the choices are ever so clear now, wait until you’ve been disappointed over a lifetime of voting to be deeply disappointed by actions taken by your candidate. No doubt I will most likely vote conservative. However, I refuse to public support him as a Pro-Life candidate.

I read online where there were roughly 137,000 Iraqi deaths caused from the war, not just our 4100 soldiers, not to mention those 40,000 with disabling injuries. Don’t white wash something that is still gravely disordered by reducing Muslim casualties to unimportant. That’s why it must be said clearly…that neither candidate is really pro-life. Frankly, I hope the one does what I see…pro-life that incorporates and pushes for being against abortion even in the case of rape and incest. That actually motivated me when I heard it. It’s almost like his croanies are hearing my private thoughts.

So, in spite of the HORRORS of the 4000 babies killed in a day. It is still deeply disorder to trivialize other people’s lives as well. It’s not a one or the other. It’s a both and scenario in my world. When your children, wife or husband is the one being killed then it means the world to you. I’ve been adversely affected by war. One casualty came years after Vietnam in the form of suicide. My other brother has tried twice. This does matter whether you accept it or not. what is the suicide and murder rate today compared to previous years? It all ties in together somehow…we live in a culture of death. Ridding the world from abortion may be the right step to move away from this culture of death. But I believe the culture of death actually existed in a different form prior to abortion being legalized. Of course children are the most inocent and thus should be protected above adults in my opinon. But how dare anyone trivialize the deaths of other people’s children. Are you not aware of the exodus of Christians in that region? Let’s try to remember those beyond our borders. America is one of the worse murdering countries around. It’s like Rome all over again. I’m a soldier and proud of my country. But my Catholic faith comes first and my Catholiciity reaches beyond country borders, race and ethnic groups.

Your dilemma stems from the fact that you cannot equate war with abortion. There are “just wars” but not one of the multi-millions of abortions was just. And, notice that those who are bothered by war are only bothered by American wars. All who were butchered in Rwanda screamed for help to deaf ears. The world’s response: “That’s just terrible. Someone should do something”. So, Iraq is somehow different?

Again, if the bodies of aborted babies were front page, and the leading story on CBSABCNBCMSNBCBLAHBLAHBLAH, there would be national outrage! But no, they show pictures of victims who were fortunate enough to be born.

I don’t know the source of your cut and paste, or whose comments they are.

“You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.” (Matthew 24:6, Mark 13:7)

 

[eucharisteo]

That wasn’t a cut and paste. Somehow I changed the font. Oh well.

You assume so much. But I blame all of our leaders for the horrible things allowed to occur on the continent of Africa. We could have done something, yet it wasn’t prioritized. You are right. There is no comparision. But you’ve assumed that the so called Pro-Life party will actually do something. How many times could they have done something to get it push high up on the agenda but didn’t do it? I don’t care about the political stuff…just save the babies. You are arguing from idiology. Unfortunate the world is not black and white so to speak. It’s more of a push this and you get that…pull this and that gets pushed… its way too political. Look at what both main parties have done with the tax system. Don’t you see the problem yet? They are creating buracracy to get votes…not actually do something.

Here’s something that may sound extreme, but I’m going to say it. I do not recommend anyone do this… BUT…if Pope Benedict XVI said it’s time to lock and load for real, would you?..I know for a fact that I would give my life because this is cause for just war. Voting on such an issue is actually insane. There’s no such thing as a vote for who gets to live. That is deeply disordered. I’m being irrationally rational about this situation. What will you do if “Pro-Life” candidate gets into office and then sandbags us again? I’ll be writing letters to the ends of the earth. I will do my best to influence folks, by waking them up. I’ll be pushing for Pro-Life Democrats and Republicans and Independents and everyone else. This is the only way we’ll ever get laws that stay put to protect life.

But we act like this system is like a childs organization. It’s just not true. I work for government, served in offices. It’s all political. Follow the money trail.

 

[po18guy]

That wasn’t a cut and paste. Somehow I changed the font. Oh well.

You assume so much. But I blame all of our leaders for the horrible things allowed to occur on the continent of Africa. We could have done something, yet it wasn’t prioritized. You are right. There is no comparision. But you’ve assumed that the so called Pro-Life party will actually do something. How many times could they have done something to get it push high up on the agenda but didn’t do it? I don’t care about the political stuff…just save the babies. You are arguing from idiology. Unfortunate the world is not black and white so to speak. It’s more of a push this and you get that…pull this and that gets pushed… its way too political. Look at what both main parties have done with the tax system. Don’t you see the problem yet? They are creating buracracy to get votes…not actually do something.

Here’s something that may sound extreme, but I’m going to say it. I do not recommend anyone do this… BUT…if Pope Benedict XVI said it’s time to lock and load for real, would you?..I know for a fact that I would give my life because this is cause for just war. Voting on such an issue is actually insane. There’s no such thing as a vote for who gets to live. That is deeply disordered. I’m being irrationally rational about this situation. What will you do if “Pro-Life” candidate gets into office and then sandbags us again? I’ll be writing letters to the ends of the earth. I will do my best to influence folks, by waking them up. I’ll be pushing for Pro-Life Democrats and Republicans and Independents and everyone else. This is the only way we’ll ever get laws that stay put to protect life.

But we act like this system is like a childs organization. It’s just not true. I work for government, served in offices. It’s all political. Follow the money trail.

29 years in government here. I distrusted it before I took the job and I still do.

As to your rhetorical question: The Crusaders followed the Pope, and so do I.

As to politics, the President has the veto pen. That alone can do so much good. Which candidate would veto pro-abortion legislation?

And, yes, I did assume too much.

 

[Andruschak]

Despite how it may seem, the Church Herself does not support or promote any candidate or party. You grievance, it would seem, is with the rather flawed choices you have been offered during this election cycle. The Church has outlined, pretty clearly, the most important issues for a Catholic and has specified that in this election, as with all elections, there is no one PERFECT candidate and that it is likely we will have to settle for the one who will do the least harm. For you, that may mean writing in a candidates name. For someone else, perhaps it means voting third party. For others it may mean going with the obvious major party. !

And if that OBVIOUS (?) “major party” is Democrat…???

 

[po18guy]

And if that OBVIOUS (?) “major party” is Democrat…???

If they are pro-life, they have my vote.

 

[eucharisteo]

My gut feeling is that we need to support Pro-Life candidates across the board so that ultimately pro-abortion will be aborted. So before you…us…we throw stones at people we need to realize that people typically do what they think works. Many vote selfishly. I don’t. I do what my conscience forces me to do. That’s why I’ve never supported one of those politiicians that jump fence, pander, meander…etc. However, when all is said and done I vote for pro-life… I can’t get beyond that point. It’s more like who appraoches pro-life because none of them are truly pro-life. I don’t know what information to truthfully believe. But so far I have to lean dexter …to use a little Latin.

Many societies are overthrown because someone was patient enough to work from the inside out. Work from within. I firmly believe that Catholics should flock to teach in public schools and to government to change things from the inside out. I mean practicing orthodox Catholics, not the kind I’m working with who do anything and everything immoral under the sun. We need to motivate our children to work for government in spite of the lower pay… I’m getting off topic now. But ultimately I believe that as we spread our example throughout the places we work more people may …just may consider the moral theology of the Church as something to look into. That’s a reach, but it sure beats doing nothing.

 

[eucharisteo]

And by the way, I’m a 3rd degree Knight and pray the rosary constantly to end abortion…even in front of the abortion clinic hoping I’m never singled out and fired from my public job. Politics is cruel. We live in a right to work state and that just means they have the right to fire you for parting your hair the wrong way. But I’ll still take hit for the children because it’s the right thing to do.

 

[po18guy]

Here’s something that may sound extreme, but I’m going to say it. I do not recommend anyone do this… BUT…if Pope Benedict XVI said it’s time to lock and load for real, would you?..I know for a fact that I would give my life because this is cause for just war. Voting on such an issue is actually insane. There’s no such thing as a vote for who gets to live. That is deeply disordered. I’m being irrationally rational about this situation. What will you do if “Pro-Life” candidate gets into office and then sandbags us again? I’ll be writing letters to the ends of the earth. I will do my best to influence folks, by waking them up. I’ll be pushing for Pro-Life Democrats and Republicans and Independents and everyone else. This is the only way we’ll ever get laws that stay put to protect life.

Abortion, like murder, is an individual choice, and those individuals will answer for their sin. Those who provide or assist an abortion, just as those who participate in or assist in murder share the guilt. There is no right to murder, but a death ensues in every case of abortion. A nation which de-values human life is not long for this world.

 

[eucharisteo]

Here’s where we run into a problem… individual sin… I think not. This is a community sin that all of us on some level participate in by the way we influence policy to hurt those in need whether for lack of home, clothing,food, healthcare, or whatever. Many if not mostof us are guilty for sexual sins that we never tell anyone about. So we participated in the sinful act on some level whether we accept it or not.

If we are to take the black and white view of this evil, then we must punish the women who have abortions inspite of their mother, fathers, boyfriends, husbands, sisters and maybe even friends that force them into a clinic through manipulation tactics scaring them upon threats of death. My personal opinion would have the legal system take it case by case like they do war crimes. At some point anyone involved in helping should be jailed. That’s the bottom line. However, realistically we know that would probably never happen. So then are we to let them off the hook? Should we allow known murderers off the hook? Personally, I feel sorry for many who fall into this disordered way of thinking, but those who manipulate it at the higher government level should be jailed as well for just supporting it. But that won’t happen.

The real innocent are in the womb. Some of the women are victims too. But no healthcare professional is innocent in my view. They make money off of it. Drug companies… And in spite of the evil…just like suicide …we must approach this carefully on an individual basis. If the Church is right…and we can presume it is since the gates of hell can not prevail against it…then we must be consistent across the board supporting our bishops and choice from the pontif. Don’t blanketly accuse people. Individuals are not always to blame for being lied too and manipulated…or even threatened.

 

[whatevergirl]

My gut feeling is that we need to support Pro-Life candidates across the board so that ultimately pro-abortion will be aborted. So before you…us…we throw stones at people we need to realize that people typically do what they think works. Many vote selfishly. I don’t. I do what my conscience forces me to do. That’s why I’ve never supported one of those politiicians that jump fence, pander, meander…etc. However, when all is said and done I vote for pro-life… I can’t get beyond that point. It’s more like who appraoches pro-life because none of them are truly pro-life. I don’t know what information to truthfully believe. But so far I have to lean dexter …to use a little Latin.

Many societies are overthrown because someone was patient enough to work from the inside out. Work from within. I firmly believe that Catholics should flock to teach in public schools and to government to change things from the inside out. I mean practicing orthodox Catholics, not the kind I’m working with who do anything and everything immoral under the sun. We need to motivate our children to work for government in spite of the lower pay… I’m getting off topic now. But ultimately I believe that as we spread our example throughout the places we work more people may …just may consider the moral theology of the Church as something to look into. That’s a reach, but it sure beats doing nothing.

**
I vote Catholic first, then American. We need to follow God’s laws, when we are considering a candidate (I agree with you!), and I believe if we do this, the rest will work out. I can’t imagine voting for a pro abortion candidate so I can get some economic need met of my own, etc… (and no one administration is going to be able to clean up the financial mess that a few presidencies caused so…)

It definitely has been a challenge this go 'round. **