Abstinence in marriage

[PennitentMan]

You were using NFP even though you had a vasectomy…or did you have that done after you left the Church?

After I left the Church.

Okay, so this was the purpose of my questions…to get to what you believe NOW. And how it changed from your thinking THEN. I remember PM your ‘fight’ to do the right thing…to follow the Church’s holy path regarding the marital embrace. I am sorry for your struggles. So…you believe that Church teaching is a manmade “rule,” and you don’t believe that sex needs to be unitive and procreative in nature, every time. Church teaching isn’t that we must procreate every time…but the act must be procreative…you and I know this, but you don’t believe that it even needs to be procreative…at all…or every time…or only when a couple chooses to PROCREATE, and thus the couple can go off the pill or whatever they are on, at that point. Is that what you believe NOW?

I believe that the couple should have the choice when and if they want to or can conceive. Only they know their situation well enough to know what they can handle. The human is not a standard measurement that all can carry the same burden. What some can carry, others can’t.

I’m not saying throw away all the rules, and everyone live according to their own morality…but within the church structure they should make provision for some circumstances. That alone would have been enough to keep me Catholic. But now that they left me no choice, that’s essentially what I had to do.
I remember having all these fears as I spent hours in spiritual direction about families and church teachings. In the end it was told to us that there is no other way, even if we don’t understand or believe, just use blind faith, god will provide.
God apparently gave us free will but we’re not allowed to use it when planning families.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Ah, thanks Dr……That would explain why my wife is doing drastically better on her pills than when she was no t on anything right? Ah, thanks!

I think what the poster meant was that hormones only cover the problem, they do nothing to fix the problem…artificial hormones have many side effects and are not harmless, either…

 

[whatevergirl]

After I left the Church.

I believe that the couple should have the choice when and if they want to or can conceive. Only they know their situation well enough to know what they can handle. The human is not a standard measurement that all can carry the same burden. What some can carry, others can’t.

I’m not saying throw away all the rules, and everyone live according to their own morality…but within the church structure they should make provision for some circumstances. That alone would have been enough to keep me Catholic. But now that they left me no choice, that’s essentially what I had to do.
I remember having all these fears as I spent hours in spiritual direction about families and church teachings. In the end it was told to us that there is no other way, even if we don’t understand or believe, just use blind faith, god will provide.
God apparently gave us free will but we’re not allowed to use it when planning families.

The Church, believe it or not…acts in our best interest. The “blueprint” if you will, for following marital sexuality…is really flawless, and could only be from God. Why would mankind want to make things harder for itself? If anything…I could see manmade laws being all about pleasure, and happiness…and not about sacrifice. Humans find it hard to sacrifice, in general…why would we create laws that restrict us? That is the thing…the Church in Her wisdom, does not restrict us. We have more freedom by just following Her principles, and trusting God. And if your wife were to get pregnant…do you think God would suddenly abandon you? Would you not be able to see a grander plan that He MIGHT have?

That is the thing…when we don’t follow God’s plan…we invent our own freedom…but it will never surpass God’s freedom. Abortion, condoms, abc are all tools that our fear based society uses in hopes of exercising its freedom. But, the irony is…these tools enslave us…and subjective morality is only around the corner.

Where should it end, then…? Should we not tithe, because who is God to tell us how to handle our finances? Should we not trust God when it comes to ‘our daily bread?’

The thing is PM…I only encourage you to look at what really held you and your wife in bondage all those years. It was not the Church, it was fear.

Blessings to you…I must run, it was nice chatting with you again. *

 

[PennitentMan]

So you gave up on the NFP thing, right?

Yes.

I guess I understand if you weren’t firmly rooted in your faith to begin with.

Okay, so you either just didn’t read my posts, even the recent ones from this very thread, or you are just plain insulting.

I mean, honestly - you now are atheist/agnostic - so you don’t even *believe *in God.

Me becoming atheist was not because of Catholicism being hard. I have explained this in a different thread too. It was not because of NFP. I know that you are incredibly Pro-NFP, so I’ll make it clear. NFP had nothing to do with my becoming atheist.
But, the saga that led us to leave the church was the catalyst for me to start looking into things deeper and with open eyes and finally come to the conclusion that there is probably no god.

Does His existence hinder on the “rules” of faith that don’t make sense to you? I can understand (to a point) leaving the Catholic faith because you don’t understand the true teachings of the faith - but totally not believing in God?.. I guess that’s where I just get confused.

See above for explination.

It just makes your struggle seem like an excuse if you don’t even believe in God. I don’t know. It’s just a sad overall story to me.

In retrospect it may seem like that, but NFP was not why I became atheist.

I wish you only peace, happiness, and love in life, PM… I hope you find that.

Thanks Em, I already have

 

[PennitentMan]

Where should it end, then…? Should we not tithe, because who is God to tell us how to handle our finances? Should we not trust God when it comes to ‘our daily bread?’

I thought that at some stage, but then it became clear that there is no god, or he up and left us here, because we can’t trust him to help us.

The thing is PM…I only encourage you to look at what really held you and your wife in bondage all those years. It was not the Church, it was fear.

Yeah, fear of my wife dying, or our marriage ending, directly because of the church….in that light, sure, it was fear!

Blessings to you…I must run, it was nice chatting with you again.

Keep well WG, thanks for the chat too!

 

[agapewolf]

Ah, thanks Dr……That would explain why my wife is doing drastically better on her pills than when she was no t on anything right? Ah, thanks!

Don’t play the “dr.” card. This is straight from my doctors mouth.

You don’t need to be sarcastic, because honestly, your wife cannot possibly be better on her pills. She may appear to be, maybe has less symptoms, but the pill just makes the body stop working the way its supposed to. It is soooo harmful and can cause long term damage or death. All it does is fool the body to think its working. They aren’t real cycles. Its impossible to have real cycles if one is suppressing ovulation.

 

[PennitentMan]

Don’t play the “dr.” card. This is straight from my doctors mouth.

You don’t need to be sarcastic, because honestly, your wife cannot possibly be better on her pills. She may appear to be, maybe has less symptoms, but the pill just makes the body stop working the way its supposed to. It is soooo harmful and can cause long term damage or death. All it does is fool the body to think its working. They aren’t real cycles. Its impossible to have real cycles if one is suppressing ovulation.

Okay, maybe I didn’t need to be sarcastic, but how can you even begin to tell me that if you haven’t seen my wife…before or after. You just repeat our doctors words…did you do research on that or did you just take him at face value? I’m just saying that your doctor may have been speaking in generalities, where as I SEE the difference in my wife.

And yet, you again steadfastly claim with this comment:

because honestly, your wife cannot possibly be better on her pills.

that from however many miles you are away, you know better the health situation of my wife than me or even her.
This kinda disqualifies you in my book right off the bat, because that’s twice now that you are making long distance diagnoses of my wife.

I say again. Your doctor may have been speaking in generalities, where as I SEE the difference in my wife.

 

[agapewolf]

Okay, maybe I didn’t need to be sarcastic, but how can you even begin to tell me that if you haven’t seen my wife…before or after. You just repeat our doctors words…did you do research on that or did you just take him at face value? I’m just saying that your doctor may have been speaking in generalities, where as I SEE the difference in my wife.

And yet, you again steadfastly claim with this comment: that from however many miles you are away, you know better the health situation of my wife than me or even her.
This kinda disqualifies you in my book right off the bat, because that’s twice now that you are making long distance diagnoses of my wife.

I say again. Your doctor may have been speaking in generalities, where as I SEE the difference in my wife.

As I said before, it may APPEAR to be better. That doesn’t mean it is. It is the very scientific facts of ABC that make it NOT better. Its science. Something that makes the body stop working the way it supposed to internally, just to make it look like it externally, is not better. Just because it looks better does not mean it is.

 

[PennitentMan]

As I said before, it may APPEAR to be better. That doesn’t mean it is. It is the very scientific facts of ABC that make it NOT better. Its science. Something that makes the body stop working the way it supposed to internally, just to make it look like it externally, is not better. Just because it looks better does not mean it is.

So, all human bodies are functioning at 100% optimum all the time?
That’s what drugs are there for…to make people better when their bodies are not functioning optimally.
If your body is giving you headaches and major depressions and all sorts of side effects, take a darn pill. Don’t we all do that to some degree?

But when it comes to female reproduction, it’s like a holy grail that we are not allowed to touch, no matter what the risk to the person is.
Pffft. That’s catholic reasoning.

 

[agapewolf]

So, all human bodies are functioning at 100% optimum all the time?
That’s what drugs are there for…to make people better when their bodies are not functioning optimally.
If your body is giving you headaches and major depressions and all sorts of side effects, take a darn pill. Don’t we all do that to some degree?

But when it comes to female reproduction, it’s like a holy grail that we are not allowed to touch, no matter what the risk to the person is.
Pffft. That’s catholic reasoning.

Um, no. The pill for headache is not just to alleviate the symptom, but to heal the problem.
Anti-depressents are meant to help the body (the brain chemicals) work the way it is supposed to. not just give appearances.

The ABC pill does NOT do this. It hides the real problems. It makes the body trick itself to think its working, so it appears that it is, but it does NOT HEAL. Read the inserts to it. It is awful the way it works. It isn’t healing. Its not a real period the woman experiences, its impossible to be one because she doesn’t ovulate. This is so simple…you seem to be so worried about your wife’s health to complain about the church’s position on NFP, but not enough to do thorough research on the pills she is putting in her mouth.

You are making comments here that are showing very clearly that you don’t undertsand church teaching all that well.

Yes, the woman’s fertility IS a holy grail. Remember, it was a woman’s womb that brought the savior here. It is all over scripture… the woman’s womb is the avenue for new life. Catholic teaching believes that we can use medicine to help the body work the way its supposed to.

 

[PennitentMan]

you seem to be so worried about your wife’s health to complain about the church’s position on NFP, but not enough to do thorough research on the pills she is putting in her mouth.

Let’s see….extreme depression, migraines and suicide vs. health, happiness and able to care for our kids and maybe even get a job soon.
Do you not trust the trials that the drugs had to have undergone? It’s not like they are just throwing these things at the general public, right?

It kinda sounds, again, like you are placing church teachings and their reasoning above the science that declared the drug safe for human consumption. Is this still an attempt to justify church teachings in the face of modern medicine?

Just asking, cuz that’s what it looks like…

 

[agapewolf]

Let’s see….extreme depression, migraines and suicide vs. health, happiness and able to care for our kids and maybe even get a job soon.
Do you not trust the trials that the drugs had to have undergone? It’s not like they are just throwing these things at the general public, right?

It kinda sounds, again, like you are placing church teachings and their reasoning above the science that declared the drug safe for human consumption. Is this still an attempt to justify church teachings in the face of modern medicine?

Just asking, cuz that’s what it looks like…

Church teaching does not work against science. However, you are ignoring the science. You apparently haven’t done any research into these drugs. Lots of things have been declared safe that have turned out not to be. If these side effects were for any other kind of “drug” it would be taken off the market…but because people want their sex without the natural consequences, it isn’t.

See, you are calling it health. I’m saying it may appear to be so, but it isn’t. And her taking abc is helping you get a job? now who’s making leaps in logic?

Her probls sound an awful lot like low progesterone. I had some serious depression/anxiety/headaches/insomnia. I take a natural progesterone that helps my body work the way its supposed to. Not an artificial hormone that stops it from working the way its supposed to. Seriously, I beg you… look into it.

 

[PennitentMan]

Church teaching does not work against science. However, you are ignoring the science. You apparently haven’t done any research into these drugs. Lots of things have been declared safe that have turned out not to be. If these side effects were for any other kind of “drug” it would be taken off the market…but because people want their sex without the natural consequences, it isn’t.

Sounds like you are into a conspiracy theory here…

See, you are calling it health. I’m saying it may appear to be so, but it isn’t. And her taking abc is helping you get a job? now who’s making leaps in logic?

Okay, now who’s into sarcasm? I’m not going to even bother anymore with these kinds of comments…

 

[agapewolf]

Sounds like you are into a conspiracy theory here…

Okay, now who’s into sarcasm? I’m not going to even bother anymore with these kinds of comments…

Where in the world was there any sarcasm? There was no sarcasm at all. I was honestly asking a question. You posted all these wonderful things as if they are coming from using ABC…including a new job.

 

[PennitentMan]

Where in the world was there any sarcasm? There was no sarcasm at all. I was honestly asking a question. You posted all these wonderful things as if they are coming from using ABC…including a new job.

It’s the way you asked it. If you can’t see that the pills affect her health positively to the point where she could actually get a job then never mind.

 

[whatevergirl]

*The pill doesn’t have all negative effects…it can actually prevent some cancers. Pills nowadays are made with lower estrogen levels…it’s the estrogen levels that wreak havoc with a woman’s body. That is a fact, and not opinon. That said, I must offer you an apology PM–I shouldn’t have probed so much–I feel you exposed yourself, and are now being asked a lot of questions. But, we are merely trying to help you see that leaving the faith was NOT the answer. It may seem like the answer, but it wasn’t.

I hope that you take into consideration what agape, and others have said…God bless. *

 

[agapewolf]

It’s the way you asked it. If you can’t see that the pills affect her health positively to the point where she could actually get a job then never mind.

Yes, I can see that. I read it as YOU were getting a job.

 

[agapewolf]

*The pill doesn’t have all negative effects…it can actually prevent some cancers. Pills nowadays are made with lower estrogen levels…it’s the estrogen levels that wreak havoc with a woman’s body. That is a fact, and not opinon. That said, I must offer you an apology PM–I shouldn’t have probed so much–I feel you exposed yourself, and are now being asked a lot of questions. But, we are merely trying to help you see that leaving the faith was NOT the answer. It may seem like the answer, but it wasn’t.

I hope that you take into consideration what agape, and others have said…God bless. *

Whatever girl, it doesn’t prevent cancers. It makes the body think its pregnant. Pregnancy lowers chances of cancer.

 

[PennitentMan]

I must offer you an apology PM–I shouldn’t have probed so much–I feel you exposed yourself, and are now being asked a lot of questions. But, we are merely trying to help you see that leaving the faith was NOT the answer. It may seem like the answer, but it wasn’t.

I hope that you take into consideration what agape, and others have said…God bless.

It’s okay Whatevergirl, no apology necessary. I could also choose how much I divulged, right? I expected questions and judgments…honestly I expected more, especially with the vasectomy

I know that you are trying to help, that’s fine, but for me it so was the eventual answer. I say eventual because NFP did not make me leave the faith. My leaving was based on reason, rational thinking and research.

 

[whatevergirl]

Whatever girl, it doesn’t prevent cancers. It makes the body think its pregnant. Pregnancy lowers chances of cancer.

*Still, a byproduct. It is like any other synthetic drug…it has side effects. Chemo therapy has a ton of negative side effects, yet people go through the treatment in hopes of being cured of cancer. One’s immune system is terribly compromised when going through chemo…my point, is that the pill is not that much different than any other drug out there made with chemicals. There will be side effects. The pill used for birth control is morally wrong, I think for me, that was the better argument to get me off of it…(I was on it for a while in my own marriage)I didn’t know the full teachings of the Church on this matter, and when my eyes were opened…it was like a new world for me. I think that talking about the health effects are good, but they don’t accomplish enough, because the argument again can be that all chemical drugs have some side effects…some more than others, and some more serious than others. *