Abstinence in marriage

[agapewolf]

*Still, a byproduct. It is like any other synthetic drug…it has side effects. Chemo therapy has a ton of negative side effects, yet people go through the treatment in hopes of being cured of cancer. One’s immune system is terribly compromised when going through chemo…my point, is that the pill is not that much different than any other drug out there made with chemicals. There will be side effects. The pill used for birth control is morally wrong, I think for me, that was the better argument to get me off of it…(I was on it for a while in my own marriage)I didn’t know the full teachings of the Church on this matter, and when my eyes were opened…it was like a new world for me. I think that talking about the health effects are good, but they don’t accomplish enough, because the argument again can be that all chemical drugs have some side effects…some more than others, and some more serious than others. *

But see, you are arguing it as side effects, when the problem is with the pill’s intention. The actual purpose of the pill is to stop the body from working. Chemo, the purpose is to get rid of foreign cancers.

 

[SMHW]

But see, you are arguing it as side effects, when the problem is with the pill’s intention. The actual purpose of the pill is to stop the body from working. Chemo, the purpose is to get rid of foreign cancers.

But the Church ALLOWS the pill for therapeutic purposes… where the primary intention is not to avoid pregnancy but rather to manage serious abnormal reproductive system symptoms. It seems as if PennitentMan’s wife likely fits in that category.

Now that said, the pill is typically not the most ideal way to manage hormonal problems because it treats symptoms rather than combatting the underlying problem (probably some kind of hormonal imbalance?)

PennitentMan, for the sake of your wife’s long term health I would suggest you and your wife not be satisfied with the status quo and and research more natural solutions to your wife’s underlying health issues.

 

[whatevergirl]

But see, you are arguing it as side effects, when the problem is with the pill’s intention. The actual purpose of the pill is to stop the body from working. Chemo, the purpose is to get rid of foreign cancers.

*Yes, the ultimate goal of chemo is for a good purpose…to save a life. (even if it doesn’t end up healing the person) Birth control, the original intent is to prevent life. But, as SMHW mentions, it seems that PM’s wife is using it for medicinal purposes which are acceptable by the Church. *

 

[agapewolf]

*Yes, the ultimate goal of chemo is for a good purpose…to save a life. (even if it doesn’t end up healing the person) Birth control, the original intent is to prevent life. But, as SMHW mentions, it seems that PM’s wife is using it for medicinal purposes which are acceptable by the Church. *

You’re missing the point. I’m not talking about the morality of it as medicine.

I’m talking about the intention of the pill itself as a drug, and how it supposed to act as “medicine”. It does not match up to any other kinds of medicines out there… the comarison to chemo does not match because the intent of the chemo is to get rid of the cancer. The intent of the pill is to stop ovulation…(for whatever reason- doesn’t matter)Thats why I’m saying it is not wise to use it at all for “medicine” purposes because it doesn’t match up to any kind of other medicines out there.

 

[whatevergirl]

You’re missing the point. I’m not talking about the morality of it as medicine.

I’m talking about the intention of the pill itself as a drug, and how it supposed to act as “medicine”. It does not match up to any other kinds of medicines out there… the comarison to chemo does not match because the intent of the chemo is to get rid of the cancer. The intent of the pill is to stop ovulation…(for whatever reason- doesn’t matter)Thats why I’m saying it is not wise to use it at all for “medicine” purposes because it doesn’t match up to any kind of other medicines out there.

Okay, I see your point! Pardon my thickness…you are right. I think that is a very good point, and I have never heard it brought up like that. *

 

[flyingfish]

You’re missing the point. I’m not talking about the morality of it as medicine.

I’m talking about the intention of the pill itself as a drug, and how it supposed to act as “medicine”. It does not match up to any other kinds of medicines out there… the comarison to chemo does not match because the intent of the chemo is to get rid of the cancer. The intent of the pill is to stop ovulation…(for whatever reason- doesn’t matter)Thats why I’m saying it is not wise to use it at all for “medicine” purposes because it doesn’t match up to any kind of other medicines out there.

There are many medicines that have very serious side effects, but are still taken by people because it’s better than without.

It would be ideal if we had perfect medicines that correct the problem which causes the symptoms. But oftentimes medicines do not correct the problem, but simply mask symptoms and have side effects.

I mean, take the most basic high blood pressure and cholesterol medications. The cause of the conditions is often being overweight, eating badly, not exercising. The medications given mess with the body’s natural chemistry to mask the symptoms of a bad lifestyle. The same thing with pain medication, it never actually corrects the issue that causes pain, but messed with the body to block the natural pain response (and the hardcore pain medication is very addictive and has a whole bunch of side effects).

There are plenty of medications out there that work to alleviate symptoms while doing absolutely nothing for the root cause of the problem.

 

[Bluegoat]

You’re missing the point. I’m not talking about the morality of it as medicine.

I’m talking about the intention of the pill itself as a drug, and how it supposed to act as “medicine”. It does not match up to any other kinds of medicines out there… the comarison to chemo does not match because the intent of the chemo is to get rid of the cancer. The intent of the pill is to stop ovulation…(for whatever reason- doesn’t matter)Thats why I’m saying it is not wise to use it at all for “medicine” purposes because it doesn’t match up to any kind of other medicines out there.

I disagree. Using it in the way described to regulate cycles has nothing to do with stopping ovulation - that isn’t the intent at all. The idea is to artificially make the body regularize it’s hormone cycle, in an attempt to "kick-start it into doing it itself. Sometimes it works. Preventing ovulation is a by-product of suppressing certain hormonal activity.

There are other drugs that interfere with other types of hormones too. Sometimes that is the reason for using them, at other times it is a by-product of some other effect that is considered desirable.

Now, using the pill indefinably just to regulate cycles might be an ethically questionable idea in some circumstances. If no other solution to make the body better regulate itself were found, you would have to show that the irregularity was really a medical problem and not just a pain in the butt.

 

[agapewolf]

I disagree. Using it in the way described to regulate cycles has nothing to do with stopping ovulation - that isn’t the intent at all. The idea is to artificially make the body regularize it’s hormone cycle, in an attempt to "kick-start it into doing it itself. Sometimes it works. Preventing ovulation is a by-product of suppressing certain hormonal activity.

There are other drugs that interfere with other types of hormones too. Sometimes that is the reason for using them, at other times it is a by-product of some other effect that is considered desirable.

Now, using the pill indefinably just to regulate cycles might be an ethically questionable idea in some circumstances. If no other solution to make the body better regulate itself were found, you would have to show that the irregularity was really a medical problem and not just a pain in the butt.

The pill doesn’t “regularize” anything. It makes it look like it is, but it isn’t. I suppresses ovulation.

 

[perfectpeach]

There are many medicines that have very serious side effects, but are still taken by people because it’s better than without.

It would be ideal if we had perfect medicines that correct the problem which causes the symptoms. But oftentimes medicines do not correct the problem, but simply mask symptoms and have side effects.

I mean, take the most basic high blood pressure and cholesterol medications. The cause of the conditions is often being overweight, eating badly, not exercising. The medications given mess with the body’s natural chemistry to mask the symptoms of a bad lifestyle. The same thing with pain medication, it never actually corrects the issue that causes pain, but messed with the body to block the natural pain response (and the hardcore pain medication is very addictive and has a whole bunch of side effects).

There are plenty of medications out there that work to alleviate symptoms while doing absolutely nothing for the root cause of the problem.

This is why we need to move away from the medicine culture we are in. God gave us healthy nutritious foods and herbs which ARE medicine as well as the ability to exercise in order to keep our bodies healhty and functioning as close to 100% as possible. I would suggest ANYONE who takes any time of medication long term to see a nutritionist as well as a homeopathic doctor.

 

[PennitentMan]

I would suggest ANYONE who takes any time of medication long term to see a nutritionist as well as a homeopathic doctor.

Homeopathic drugs are a crock. Read up on the dilutions they use. Essentially they are administering plain water. I have seen some documentaries where homeopaths actually admit to this and there is a lot written about it too.

Essentially homeopathic medicine is all about placebos.

I don’t waste my time.

 

[Em_in_FL]

I disagree. Using it in the way described to regulate cycles has nothing to do with stopping ovulation - that isn’t the intent at all. The idea is to artificially make the body regularize it’s hormone cycle, in an attempt to "kick-start it into doing it itself. Sometimes it works. Preventing ovulation is a by-product of suppressing certain hormonal activity.

There are other drugs that interfere with other types of hormones too. Sometimes that is the reason for using them, at other times it is a by-product of some other effect that is considered desirable.

Now, using the pill indefinably just to regulate cycles might be an ethically questionable idea in some circumstances. If no other solution to make the body better regulate itself were found, you would have to show that the irregularity was really a medical problem and not just a pain in the butt.

Alright… let’s stop sharing ideas and opinions and start referencing websites, shall we?

mayoclinic.com/health/womens-health/WO00069

When you take traditional 28-day oral contraceptives, you experience monthly bleeding as the result of stopping the hormones. This bleeding is not the same as having a regular period, nor is the bleeding necessary for health. Oral contraceptives mimic a natural menstrual cycle. Some women find them more acceptable that way. Predictable monthly bleeding also reassures women that they aren’t pregnant.

knowyourperiod.com/pill.htm

The Period That Isn’t
When women take the Pill as directed, most do not ovulate, and therefore, do not build up a thicker uterine lining which they need to shed along with an unfertilized egg–the purpose of a real menstrual period. The monthly bleeding women on the Pill experience is not a real “menstrual period,” but actually a “withdrawal bleed” induced by the withdrawal of synthetic hormones during the Pill-free or placebo week.

seasonique.com/about/what-is-a-pill-period/

So why do I get a pill period when I’m on the Pill?

The bleeding you experience when you’re on the Pill is not menstruation; it’s actually caused by hormone withdrawal. During the last week of the pack the absence of combination hormones causes your uterus to become weakened and bleed. This bleeding is a “pill period.”

 

[peregrinator_it]

But the Church ALLOWS the pill for therapeutic purposes… where the primary intention is not to avoid pregnancy but rather to manage serious abnormal reproductive system symptoms.

This is true.

Agapewolf, let me preface this by saying that I don’t think I disagree with you in principle, but I think you may be over-stating your case.

It [the pill] does not match up to any other kinds of medicines out there… the comparison to chemo does not match because the intent of the chemo is to get rid of the cancer. The intent of the pill is to stop ovulation…(for whatever reason- doesn’t matter.) That’s why I’m saying it is not wise to use it at all for “medicine” purposes because it doesn’t match up to any kind of other medicines out there.

It is true that the pill suppresses a perfectly normal and healthy bodily function, namely ovulation. It’s not true that no other medication suppresses normal bodily functions, or that no other medication is ever used for that express purpose.

There are neurological and auto-immune disorders out there that cause the body’s immune system to attack or otherwise interfere with the functioning of the body’s own (other) organs and cells. The therapeutic treatment for these disorders is often immune-suppressant medication. In other words, medication that suppresses a perfectly normal, natural, healthy, and (ordinarily) necessary bodily function- that of fighting off disease.

Steroids, which are used to control dangerous allergic reactions, also suppress the normal function of the immune system.

Now, no one in his right mind would take (or prescribe) immune-suppressants, except where other options would have markedly much worse results. This, I believe, ought to be our attitude toward the birth control pill, as well, for reasons you’ve already articulated very well.

However, as someone who suffers from moderate pain & discomfort associated with the normal functioning of her body, I can’t see faulting a woman who suffers from severe pain and discomfort using the pill to relieve her symptoms (only if this works for her, of course) until the underlying cause can be found. Most of us, in this rat-race of a world, cannot afford to be totally out of commission for several days out of every month.

This is not to say that even the therapuetic use of the pill has no moral implications or to judge that anyone’s particular reason for using the pill for reasons other than birth control is the best decision (or not.) I’m merely defending the Church’s (reasonable, I think) stance on therapuetic use of the birth control pill.

All this is terribly tangential to the OP. I’m afraid I can offer nothing on the effects of abstinence in marriage because I’m not married, but hope that the original poster can find a good morally sound way to address his difficulties.

 

[christianlove]

My Wife and I have struggled with this recently…we want to follow the rules, and avoid regulation of birth, NFP excluded. However, that means we have to abstain for 11 days out of the month, 7 days she is menstruating, leaving 11 days available for intercourse, and lets face it, the desire just is there *for her *on those days. It is a big problem. So I had to figure out why regulation of birth was so wrong. You can find my opinion in a long 10 or 11 series of post at: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=214253&highlight=on+coitus+interruptus&page=11

Scroll down until you see my name or you see:
On Coitus Interruptus: Procreative and Unitive Processes of the Matrimonial Trinity
Introduction

Any way, I can figure it out either and my wife are not sure how this will work. Frustrating. I will conclude with a conclusion of this letter I wrote:

"As long as the Catholic Church holds on to the belief that coitus interruptus is a sin, I must try to overcome my intellectual reasoning and obey as Christ taught us to obey all authority put in place by God. Pope Paul VI concludes his encyclical letter with words of encouragement to strengthen my resolve to remain faithful to the CC as my source of religious education, strength in grace, and growth in the love of Christ. He writes, ‘…married couples [must learn] the necessary way of prayer and prepare…to approach more often with great faith the Sacraments of the Eucharist and of Penance. Let them never lose heart because of their weakness (Human Vitae) .’ Only in this way can I remit. All the words above are but a calling out with a lavish tongue my thoughts and frustrations for which there are pleas with scientist, of all groups, to assist with. As a newly devoted Catholic, and forever devoted to the love of Christ and mercy of God, I must accept these things and ‘implore the help of God with unremitting prayer and, most of all,…draw grace and charity from that unfailing fount which is the Eucharist. If, however, sin still exercises its hold over [me, I am] not to lose heart. Rather must *, humble and persevering, have recourse to the mercy of God, abundantly bestowed in the Sacrament of Penance. In this way, for sure, * will be able to reach that perfection of married life (Human Vitae).’

There is vast tranquility in placing all innocence and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ to lead us all to his Father’s house with the Holy Spirit blazing in our hearts and minds. No one can take away my God, His love for me, and mine for Him! So, with trust in Him, how do I fail? How does my mind lead me astray when I am fully His? I am certainly not infallible, but with the love of Christ a path is lit, and I walk with assurance that he will guide me straight to him where I will fall in his arms."

Peace on your house, let love rule your church; after all, this is the one command Christ gave us!**

 

[christianlove]

let me also say:

The man and woman are married, unified into one flesh, sanctified by Christ through the Holy Spirit, loved by and combined with God the Father, rejoiced and lifted by the Church, and fulfilled with all the expectation of these Holy names with each and every giving of one’s self to the other, and the act of frustrating the procreative process while fostering the unitive process can in no way remove the charity in their hearts. The CC nobly sides with the procreation of life at all cost and holds that the unitive (fidelity) and procreative (fecundity) processes must be used together at all times to avoid “altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family (CCC2363),” and that “both [are] inherent to the marriage act (CCC2366).” While I also would unquestionably agree with the support of all any life formed from the moment of conception, I simply disagree on the basis that inhibiting is not removing. The unitive or procreative process can each, in their own way, bring a married couple closer to God; therefore, the fulfillment of either is righteous and need not be dependent on the other. The unitive process fulfills the creation of a trinity, three persons united in one image of Love that makes a human being in the image which he was created. In this process we become closer to God than we ever can be. Even without the creation of Life, there is creation of truly divine Love. Both are incredibly blessed. In addition, the procreative process allows us to share in the ultimate gift of the creation of life, which is the power of God alone. To allow us to have such an amazing role in the creation of life, likewise, brings the married couple closer to God. “By giving life, spouses participate in God’s fatherhood (CCC2398).” Therefore, both of these processes are incredibly religious and should be shared together as a blessing, envisioned and experienced as such. Either one alone is enough to bestow upon us God’s grace, which is the purpose of all the Sacraments that the Lord Jesus Christ instituted and share with us.

 

[mrpathetic]

NFP is not working, so abstinence is our only option right now to space our child.

What I would like to hear in this thread are people’s positive experiences of abstinence. Can it be beneficial to a marriage? If yes, how? Please give me examples.

God bless,
Ut

Bad idea. I am living proof.

My wife and I have not had sex in 16 years. Our sexlessness started shortly after the birth of our second child. That was 1993. It is now 2009. That’s 16 years. My wife has told me we will never have sex again, and she absolutely means it.

What’s it like being a married man, and being denied sex for 16 years? it is like a prison sentence, for life. You never know when the punishment will be over, but when it’s over - your life is over.

**If you stop having sex, there’s no guarantee it will ever start again. I learned that the hard way. **

Our marriage is now phoney, fradulent, and essentially dead. I lead a life now of 100% abstinence and continence; it is the only way to stay out of the divorce court.

Don’t do this. Please. If someone advises you to do it - ask them to live my life for the past 16 years, and then come to the same recommendation. I don’t think they’ll take the challenge.

1 Corinthians 7 has this advice for couples: that they should not deprive each other, except for a period of time, for prayer and fasting. St. Paul knew what he was talking about. So unless you plan on fasting until the end of your life, don’t do this.

If you need to change NFP techniques, or find a different NFP counselor, then do it. Trust me, it’s worth the money.

 

[Bluegoat]

Bad idea. I am living proof.

My wife and I have not had sex in 16 years. Our sexlessness started shortly after the birth of our second child. That was 1993. It is now 2009. That’s 16 years. My wife has told me we will never have sex again, and she absolutely means it.

What’s it like being a married man, and being denied sex for 16 years? it is like a prison sentence, for life. You never know when the punishment will be over, but when it’s over - your life is over.

**If you stop having sex, there’s no guarantee it will ever start again. I learned that the hard way. **

Our marriage is now phoney, fradulent, and essentially dead. I lead a life now of 100% abstinence and continence; it is the only way to stay out of the divorce court.

Don’t do this. Please. If someone advises you to do it - ask them to live my life for the past 16 years, and then come to the same recommendation. I don’t think they’ll take the challenge.

1 Corinthians 7 has this advice for couples: that they should not deprive each other, except for a period of time, for prayer and fasting. St. Paul knew what he was talking about. So unless you plan on fasting until the end of your life, don’t do this.

If you need to change NFP techniques, or find a different NFP counselor, then do it. Trust me, it’s worth the money.

I hate to say this, but it sounds like your problems are not directly related to lack of sex, but rather stem from a lack of many other things that need to happen in a marriage.

 

[whatevergirl]

I agree Bluegoat…mr p, my prayers have always been with you in your marital struggles. I have to say though, in my mind, when I read your posts…I ask myself, would I WANT to have sex with my husband if he treated me like I was invisible? Probably not. I think that if your marriage improved in areas out of the bedroom, you and your wife would spend more time in it, together. I don’t consider your marriage to be that of one that just has sex has a factor. Your wife uses sex as a punishment…that’s just sad to me. Punishing you for what, I don’t know…but as I read your posts more and more…that’s what I take away from it. Sex is not a weapon or tool to get what we desire from another…or to take it away as a form of punishment…I think therein lies much of your problem, and again, I wouldn’t WANT to be with my husband (sexually speaking) if he treated me like that. I’m so sorry again for your struggles! You inspire me though, you have been given strength from Christ to carry your crosses, I must say you are a testament to our faith.

 

[utunumsint]

Bad idea. I am living proof.

My wife and I have not had sex in 16 years. Our sexlessness started shortly after the birth of our second child. That was 1993. It is now 2009. That’s 16 years. My wife has told me we will never have sex again, and she absolutely means it.

What’s it like being a married man, and being denied sex for 16 years? it is like a prison sentence, for life. You never know when the punishment will be over, but when it’s over - your life is over.

**If you stop having sex, there’s no guarantee it will ever start again. I learned that the hard way. **

Our marriage is now phoney, fradulent, and essentially dead. I lead a life now of 100% abstinence and continence; it is the only way to stay out of the divorce court.

Don’t do this. Please. If someone advises you to do it - ask them to live my life for the past 16 years, and then come to the same recommendation. I don’t think they’ll take the challenge.

1 Corinthians 7 has this advice for couples: that they should not deprive each other, except for a period of time, for prayer and fasting. St. Paul knew what he was talking about. So unless you plan on fasting until the end of your life, don’t do this.

If you need to change NFP techniques, or find a different NFP counselor, then do it. Trust me, it’s worth the money.

Thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate it.

On another interesting note, my wife may have ovulated 6 weeks post partum. On a rather scary note, it was our wedding aniversary on Friday so…

We are fairly confident that if she is ovulating, it was today, which puts us well out of the possible range of Friday. In which case this is fairly good news. It means she is ovulating again.

Although she is exclusivly bfing, we had a really nice date on Friday, and this last week has been very relaxing. I also got her a 14 year old babysitter, so she she has three hours in the day when she can relax with our 6 week old.

I think he anovulatory phases were due to excessive stress. I feel confident the she can have fairly normal cycles if we just focus on a positive attitude, and I she does all that she can to relax.

God bless,
Ut

God bless,
Ut

 

[agapewolf]

Thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate it.

On another interesting note, my wife may have ovulated 6 weeks post partum. On a rather scary note, it was our wedding aniversary on Friday so…

We are fairly confident that if she is ovulating, it was today, which puts us well out of the possible range of Friday. In which case this is fairly good news. It means she is ovulating again.

Although she is exclusivly bfing, we had a really nice date on Friday, and this last week has been very relaxing. I also got her a 14 year old babysitter, so she she has three hours in the day when she can relax with our 6 week old.

I think he anovulatory phases were due to excessive stress. I feel confident the she can have fairly normal cycles if we just focus on a positive attitude, and I she does all that she can to relax.

God bless,
Ut

God bless,
Ut

Are you talking about next week Friday? If so, good. If you are talking about tomorrow Friday, you need 3 1/2 days after ovulation to wait.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Bad idea. I am living proof.

My wife and I have not had sex in 16 years. Our sexlessness started shortly after the birth of our second child. That was 1993. It is now 2009. That’s 16 years. My wife has told me we will never have sex again, and she absolutely means it.

What’s it like being a married man, and being denied sex for 16 years? it is like a prison sentence, for life. You never know when the punishment will be over, but when it’s over - your life is over.

**If you stop having sex, there’s no guarantee it will ever start again. I learned that the hard way. **

Our marriage is now phoney, fradulent, and essentially dead. I lead a life now of 100% abstinence and continence; it is the only way to stay out of the divorce court.

Don’t do this. Please. If someone advises you to do it - ask them to live my life for the past 16 years, and then come to the same recommendation. I don’t think they’ll take the challenge.

1 Corinthians 7 has this advice for couples: that they should not deprive each other, except for a period of time, for prayer and fasting. St. Paul knew what he was talking about. So unless you plan on fasting until the end of your life, don’t do this.

If you need to change NFP techniques, or find a different NFP counselor, then do it. Trust me, it’s worth the money.

But the abstinence wasn’t entered into jointly…this is not what the OP was talking about at all. I agree with the other posters who said there is more going on with your marriage than just abstinence.