Abuse confession

[LtTony]

emphasis added

“He said the abuse ended when one of the nephews told his family, but that it was agreed it would remain within the family and Vangheluwe says he paid millions of old Belgian francs to the victim.”

Why would the victim’s family – the ex-bishop’s family – keep silent? Where did the money come from?

The church should severe ties with this man, and do everything it can to make things right.

The Church can’t sever ties with Bishop Vangheluwe. He is a Catholic and a bishop ad-aeternum. Bishop Vangheluwe needs to repent and reconcile with the Church in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. He is subject to whatever civil and criminal laws are applicable.

I understand the church can’t disconnect spiritually with the man anymore than it can with any other sinner. But legally (in some respects), morally and ethically the church can demonstrate it will not stand with the disturbing (“no penetration”) comments made by him.
The church should not hide behind it’s own legalism, either. Like “bishop ad-aetemum”, although that is something you mentioned here, not a church official.
The man said he had repented, but his published public statements didn’t strike me as contrite, only infuriating.
Apparently, criminal charges are not in the cards, but I hope so. Let a criminal court decide. Civilally, I wonder who will foot the bill for him playing non-penetrating footsy with a child nephew.
Speaking of money… I still wonder where did the millions of francs come from?

The fact of the matter is that public perception matters. The scandal – and how it is handled – potential keeps souls from finding salvation. Deal with it truthfully and ethically in public as much as possible; the results will only be good.

quote]
1holycatholic;7770330:

That’s not legalism, it’s dogma.

Dogma smogma. The church should stand for what is right and distance itself from ad aetemum’s disgusting remarks.

The Church has not endorsed the bishop’s remarks. I’m pointing out the fact that he is a Catholic bishop forever

.

I understand one “can’t give back the gift,” but I have difficulty grasping how this affects how the church should respond.

The Church can’t give sinners the boot. If that were the case the Church would have no members.

The Bishop has had his faculties removed. What else would you suggest the Church do?

Do the right thing – during the interim and at the conclusion of the investigation. And make sure all of it is fully explained to catholics and non-catholics.

I stated above, "I understand the church can’t disconnect spiritually with the man anymore than it can with any other sinner." So I don’t understand why you mention “the church can’t give sinners the boot.”

You wrote that the church has “not endorsed his remarks.” I’m stating that it is very likely that the church has not condemned them… forcefully. I said the church needs to distance itself (severe) from the man’s behavior and remarks – I don’t care what title he has and for how long.

It is really very simple. No need to make it complex.

I still need it explained to me why the fact that he is “bishop forever” but had “his faculties removed” changes anything. He is a sinner like the rest of us, sure; but he held a very public office and news of his behavior is widespread. That has to count for something, too.

 

[1holycatholic]

Do the right thing – during the interim and at the conclusion of the investigation. And make sure all of it is fully explained to catholics and non-catholics.

I stated above, "I understand the church can’t disconnect spiritually with the man anymore than it can with any other sinner." So I don’t understand why you mention “the church can’t give sinners the boot.”

You wrote “The church should severe ties with this man” aka giving him the boot.

You wrote that the church has “not endorsed his remarks.” I’m stating that it is very likely that the church has not condemned them… forcefully. I said the church needs to distance itself (severe) from the man’s behavior and remarks – I don’t care what title he has and for how long.

Last I checked the position of the Church is to condemn sin and to offer reconciliation to the sinner if they repent.

It is really very simple. No need to make it complex.

I still need it explained to me why the fact that he is “bishop forever” but had “his faculties removed” changes anything. He is a sinner like the rest of us, sure; but he held a very public office and news of his behavior is widespread. That has to count for something, too.

He is a Catholic Bishop forever because the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Holy Orders effect an ontological change on the recipient that cannot be undone. I don’t know why you keep bringing it up.

 

[LtTony]

You wrote “The church should severe ties with this man” aka giving him the boot.

I believe I clarified later – or at least attempted to – that the church should distance itself from the disgusting behavior and insensative comments. Give him the boot? Sure in every way it can, if he truely committed these acts and made the commentes

Last I checked the position of the Church is to condemn sin and to offer reconciliation to the sinner if they repent.

I agree, but…

Repentence includes making things right as best you can for those that have been harmed by your sin. Further, we are talking about something more than one man’s indivudual sin. Please try and see the bigger picture.

He is a Catholic Bishop forever because the Sacrament of Baptism and the Sacrament of Holy Orders effect an ontological change on the recipient that cannot be undone. I don’t know why you keep bringing it up.

Odd, you seem to be the one who keeps bringing it up. Like his office somehow relieves him of accountablity. I don’t care if he is the pope himself or an usher at the tiniest parish in the middle of nowhere. Every priest I’ve talked to said MORE is expected of them.

I suggest we agree to disagree. You can have the last word.

 

[1holycatholic]

I believe I clarified later – or at least attempted to – that the church should distance itself from the disgusting behavior and insensative comments. Give him the boot? Sure in every way it can, if he truely committed these acts and made the commentes

I agree, but…

Repentence includes making things right as best you can for those that have been harmed by your sin. Further, we are talking about something more than one man’s indivudual sin. Please try and see the bigger picture.

Odd, you seem to be the one who keeps bringing it up. Like his office somehow relieves him of accountablity. I don’t care if he is the pope himself or an usher at the tiniest parish in the middle of nowhere. Every priest I’ve talked to said MORE is expected of them.

I suggest we agree to disagree. You can have the last word.

I don’t agree to disagree about Church doctrine on the sacraments. They are what they are. If you can’t be bothered with learning what the Church teaches about the sacraments you’re not in a position to keep complaining about them.

The big picture is that you can’t force someone to repent.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Many Catholics will say “yeah, well the NY Times and media are out to get the Catholic Church so I don’t read it or buy into that” whereas I totally disagree. I thank the media for exposing this trash and putting the heat on the Church. The Church has been in denial for decades. In the 1960’s and 70’s the Church bought into that idea that pedophiles can be “rehabilitated.” Then later they just flat out covered it all up for the sake of PR and image. Ratziner (now pope) did a horrendous job of dealing with it. He is responsible for many of these guys staying put and continuing to molest according to the documentation. Pope John Paul II, whom I have always deeply admired, did an abysmal job as well. I think he was naive in not wanting to accept the idea that there could be so much evil from within…

The media has put on the heat and now things “seem” tougher. Only time will tell.

Gurney,
You know that I am in no way anti-Catholic. However, when the moral actions of the Church fail to meet the minimum standard of secular law, there is a serious problem. As for those complaining about articles in the New York Times, I would ask if these articles contain any false or misleading information. If so, take action against The New York Times. If not, it is what it is.

In Texas, the law requires any person, who believes that a child is being abused, to report, wthin 48 hours, the circumstances to Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS). **In fact, anyone suspecting abuse and not reporting it can be held liable for a a misdemeanor or state jail felony. **
Link: dfps.state.tx.us/contact_us/report_abuse.asp

FAMILY CODE (link: statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/FA/htm/FA.261.htm)

TITLE 5. THE PARENT-CHILD RELATIONSHIP AND THE SUIT AFFECTING THE PARENT-CHILD RELATIONSHIP

SUBTITLE E. PROTECTION OF THE CHILD

CHAPTER 261. INVESTIGATION OF REPORT OF CHILD ABUSE OR NEGLECT

SUBCHAPTER B. REPORT OF ABUSE OR NEGLECT; IMMUNITIES
Sec. 261.101. PERSONS REQUIRED TO REPORT; TIME TO REPORT.
(c) The requirement to report under this section applies without exception to an individual whose personal communications may otherwise be privileged, including an attorney, a member of the clergy, a medical practitioner, a social worker, a mental health professional, and an employee of a clinic or health care facility that provides reproductive services.

The attorney client privilege will apply during “proceedings.”

Sec. 261.202. PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION. In a proceeding regarding the abuse or neglect of a child, evidence may not be excluded on the ground of privileged communication except in the case of communications between an attorney and client.

So, the implications for the Catholic Church, in some of these cases, may have “criminal” implications, if those in authority failed to report and/or prevent abuse of a any child.

I am very concerned about the actions of the Pope in these cases of reported abuse. What did he know, when did he know, and what action did he take to protect children? Catholics maintain “faith and morals” remain constant in the Catholic Church. I know there are certain definitions for the binding teachings of “faith and morals”; but actions speak louder than any words ever put to the written page.

Child abuse is a moral issue any way you consider it. I think the Catholic Church needs to show sincere concern about the abused children and make them a higher priority than PR issues and damage control. After all, the world is watching and the truth always comes out eventually.

Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

As a teacher, trust me, I have to report abuse periodically. I had to do so this year. We have A TON of meth in our area. Tulare County, CA is the highest amount of meth addicts and dealers in the entire United States. Lucky us! We also are the teen pregnancy capital of the U.S. and the third worst air quality in America. We are just so dang blasted lucky aren’t we!?

But seriously, I have to hear about so much of this junk at school. It’s heart-wrenching. My job is weird because a lot of it feels like social work.

I have five girls in my class this year having to see a psychologist at school! I have so many kids with parents in jail this year, so many living with step parents as their real parents are on drugs or dead. Only about 30% of my class has married parents. They’re so dysfunctional that I scarcely know how to communicate with some of them. It’s nuts.

Abuse is just so awful. And like you said, it’s a cycle…

Your testimony and courage in admitting it as well as resolve to fight it is inspiring to everyone in this forum, most especially to myself as your friend.

Gurney,
You know that I am in no way anti-Catholic. However, when the moral actions of the Church fail to meet the minimum standard of secular law, there is a serious problem. As for those complaining about articles in the New York Times, I would ask if these articles contain any false or misleading information. If so, take action against The New York Times. If not, it is what it is.

In Texas, the law requires any person, who believes that a child is being abused, to report, wthin 48 hours, the circumstances to Texas Department of Family and Protective Services (DFPS). **In fact, anyone suspecting abuse and not reporting it can be held liable for a a misdemeanor or state jail felony. **
Link: dfps.state.tx.us/contact_us/report_abuse.asp

FAMILY CODE (link: statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/FA/htm/FA.261.htm)

TITLE 5. THE PARENT-CHILD RELATIONSHIP AND THE SUIT AFFECTING THE PARENT-CHILD RELATIONSHIP

SUBTITLE E. PROTECTION OF THE CHILD

CHAPTER 261. INVESTIGATION OF REPORT OF CHILD ABUSE OR NEGLECT

SUBCHAPTER B. REPORT OF ABUSE OR NEGLECT; IMMUNITIES
Sec. 261.101. PERSONS REQUIRED TO REPORT; TIME TO REPORT.
(c) The requirement to report under this section applies without exception to an individual whose personal communications may otherwise be privileged, including an attorney, a member of the clergy, a medical practitioner, a social worker, a mental health professional, and an employee of a clinic or health care facility that provides reproductive services.

The attorney client privilege will apply during “proceedings.”

Sec. 261.202. PRIVILEGED COMMUNICATION. In a proceeding regarding the abuse or neglect of a child, evidence may not be excluded on the ground of privileged communication except in the case of communications between an attorney and client.

So, the implications for the Catholic Church, in some of these cases, may have “criminal” implications, if those in authority failed to report and/or prevent abuse of a any child.

I am very concerned about the actions of the Pope in these cases of reported abuse. What did he know, when did he know, and what action did he take to protect children? Catholics maintain “faith and morals” remain constant in the Catholic Church. I know there are certain definitions for the binding teachings of “faith and morals”; but actions speak louder than any words ever put to the written page.

Child abuse is a moral issue any way you consider it. I think the Catholic Church needs to show sincere concern about the abused children and make them a higher priority than PR issues and damage control. After all, the world is watching and the truth always comes out eventually.

Anna

 

[wild_thing]

Gurney,
You know that I am in no way anti-Catholic. However, when the moral actions of the Church fail to meet the minimum standard of secular law, there is a serious problem.

I am very concerned about the actions of the Pope in these cases of reported abuse. What did he know, when did he know, and what action did he take to protect children? Catholics maintain “faith and morals” remain constant in the Catholic Church. I know there are certain definitions for the binding teachings of “faith and morals”; but actions speak louder than any words ever put to the written page.

Child abuse is a moral issue any way you consider it. I think the Catholic Church needs to show sincere concern about the abused children and make them a higher priority than PR issues and damage control. After all, the world is watching and the truth always comes out eventually.

Anna

 

[Johnder_Wild]

Child abuse is really disgusting. And as Vangheluwe didn’t show any regret and is not aware of the problem, than his confession is totally worthless.

 

[sojo]

Hey everyone – the story gets worse. There’s a thread started now (perhaps the Mod. will combine all these into one at some point?) that says there’s a new twist to the story. Two more accusations of sexual abuse from the Bishop. It involves two altar boys, and one has already committed suicide. I suppose it just slipped the good Bishop’s mind, or perhaps they enjoyed his attentions, too?

And yet again, the abuse took place too long ago for the prosecutor to press charges.

 

[1holycatholic]

Hey everyone – the story gets worse. There’s a thread started now (perhaps the Mod. will combine all these into one at some point?) that says there’s a new twist to the story. Two more accusations of sexual abuse from the Bishop. It involves two altar boys, and one has already committed suicide. I suppose it just slipped the good Bishop’s mind, or perhaps they enjoyed his attentions, too?

And yet again, the abuse took place too long ago for the prosecutor to press charges.

I started the other thread too.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

and one has already committed suicide.

sad