Abuse in Ireland....Why is Punishment typically utilized to teach our catholic christian faith?

[cknick]

Hairs are being split—we aren’t talking about teaching, training or discipline. We are discussing abuse.

You can defend corporal punishment all you want, but it isn’t going to be put in the law books again, because there is too much potential for abuse…by crazy peoply who think they have some God given right to hurt others on God’s behalf. You cannot obtain good spiritual formation by being abusive. Abuse destroys the foundation of trust.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Hairs are being split—we aren’t talking about teaching, training or discipline. We are discussing abuse.

You can defend corporal punishment all you want, but it isn’t going to be put in the law books again, because there is too much potential for abuse…by crazy peoply who think they have some God given right to hurt others on God’s behalf. You cannot obtain good spiritual formation by being abusive. Abuse destroys the foundation of trust.

And we’re sliding down the slope to Hell on earth.

If you are the least bit rational and your memory extends back to before ‘abuse’ was defined as hurting someone’s feelings, you cannot deny the world was a better, far more decent and SAFE place to live when actions had consequences. Corporal punishment works.

 

[Brickmaker]

If you are the least bit rational and your memory extends back to before ‘abuse’ was defined as hurting someone’s feelings.

The problem is that no-one except you defines abuse as hurt feelings. If you want to deny that abuse happened in these institutions, that’s your right. But it’s not the truth and no amount of redefining abuse to suit your argument is going to make it true.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

There has been and continues to be a concerted and deliberate attack, not only on the Church, but all concepts of proper authority.

Teachers have no control over their students. They fear them, with good reason.

The enemies of the Eternal Word will revel in anarchy. Looks like it’s coming sooner rather than later.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

The problem is that no-one except you defines abuse as hurt feelings. If you want to deny that abuse happened in these institutions, that’s your right. But it’s not the truth and no amount of redefining abuse to suit your argument is going to make it true.

Many people these days define abuse as hurt feelings. Like Sailor kenshin says we are seeing the results of a lack of discipline in the schools. This does not excuse any true abuse that is happening now or did in the past. But there is an absolute need for discipline and it does not come by soft means.

cknick, were not splitting hairs. Your avoiding the subject. Your starting to remind me of Nancy Pelosi.

 

[cknick]

And you kinda resemble Bill Clinton…

“I did not have sex with…”

Abuse, and other harsh forms of punishment destroy trust and has affected the lives of these people…

DId you not read the inquiry and get a sense of the terror they experienced? Hello!

 

[Mickey_Finn]

And you kinda resemble Bill Clinton

Talk about abusive. Yes I read it. we are discusing the important role punishment plays in training. Not hanging children up by hooks or turning dogs on them.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

And I remain suspicious of the wording in the thread title. Reminds me of Baghdad Bob, the Mouthpiece of Sauron, or the New York Times.

Punishment in any form is the only way to teach. Whether it’s punishment by being left back or corporal punishment or failure to advance in a company, it works.

I met a young man this week who told me most of the time, at his company, employees don’t bother to show up at work, don’t call in sick, don’t even make an attempt at excuses the next day.

When I asked why they weren’t fired, the man said, “They can’t fire half the company at once.”

This is what a no-consequences world leads to.

 

[cknick]

Talk about abusive. Yes I read it. we are discusing the important role punishment plays in training. Not hanging children up by hooks or turning dogs on them.

Well, how do you expect me to respond when I’m told I remind someone of Nancy Pelosi…yeah, talk about abusive…

You can reward good behaviors, remain neutral, and punish bad behaviors. Rewarding good behaviors and giving attention to what is good and right has been found to be more effective than punishing bad behaviors. Remember Pavlov? Ring the bell, and dog salivates because he knows he is getting a treat.

They have found when training elephants, that physically punishing an elephant is very damaging, because the memory of an elephant is so effective. Most elephants that are struck, eventually strike back at their trainers.

As far as behavior modification goes, reward and reinforcement systems are much more effective. Physical punishment may stop a behavior from occuring, but unless a more favorable behavior is taught in substitution, all you did was jeopardize trust.
( I wrote BMod programs for high risk offenders-my specialty-I do know what I’m talking about, and these findings are based on years of research and statistics.)

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Well, how do you expect me to respond when I’m told I remind someone of Nancy Pelosi…yeah, talk about abusive…

You can reward good behaviors, remain neutral, and punish bad behaviors. Rewarding good behaviors and giving attention to what is good and right has been found to be more effective than punishing bad behaviors. Remember Pavlov? Ring the bell, and dog salivates because he knows he is getting a treat.

They have found when training elephants, that physically punishing an elephant is very damaging, because the memory of an elephant is so effective. Most elephants that are struck, eventually strike back at their trainers.

As far as behavior modification goes, reward and reinforcement systems are much more effective. Physical punishment may stop a behavior from occuring, but unless a more favorable behavior is taught in substitution, all you did was jeopardize trust.
( I wrote BMod programs for high risk offenders-my specialty-I do know what I’m talking about, and these findings are based on years of research and statistics.)

This is never going to end. First off, come to think of it. Bill Clinton was a rather handsome fellow.

Pavlovs reward type conditioning only works when the dog wants a reward. When he doesn’t you can stuff the treat and he does as he pleases. Reference elephants striking back sharper dogs will do this as well. You need to win the fight.

I agree there has to be rewards for good behavior whether it’s simply sitting through class or getting an A. When a student is led away from the class to be disciplined. The full value of the discipline is lost. The teacher losses their real authority and the class losses the opportunity to view the correction and the resulting positive results. Where they learn by anothers mistake. This is very effective.

Finally, if all you have are years of research and statistics. You’ll never win this debate.

 

[cknick]

This is never going to end. First off, come to think of it. Bill Clinton was a rather handsome fellow.

Pavlovs reward type conditioning only works when the dog wants a reward. When he doesn’t you can stuff the treat and he does as he pleases. Reference elephants striking back sharper dogs will do this as well. You need to win the fight.

I agree there has to be rewards for good behavior whether it’s simply sitting through class or getting an A. When a student is led away from the class to be disciplined. The full value of the discipline is lost. The teacher losses their real authority and the class losses the opportunity to view the correction and the resulting positive results. Where they learn by anothers mistake. This is very effective.

Finally, if all you have are years of research and statistics. You’ll never win this debate.

Your argument is a mute point. The case in point are thousands of Irelands children.
If you read the inquiry, you would see the devastating effects that this torture and abuse had on their lives. Most if not all came away from the experience with permanent scarring, physical and emotional.

We aren’t talking about your average swat of the behind. We are talking about burns, scaldings, near drownings, hammering childrens hands, using cat o’nine tails on these kids till they were bloody, repeated rapings, making the kids hold their arms in the air for up to three hours, only to receive torturous beatings when they dropped them…sick, sick stuff.

In the same arena you are defending corporal punishment. If you read the inquiry, you would realize that what you are fighting for, has no place here, because punishment was not effective. the majority of children learned to hate, fear others and to abuse others, because that is what they received at the hands of the church.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The attacks on the Church and on legitimate authority everywhere continue. This isn’t a subject for debate; it’s about whether we have the will to win.

 

[cknick]

Believe it or not, this isn’t about who wins or loses. It’s about how we live and treat others. We are all suppose to be doing our part in the race to salvation, in the fight against evil. We are many parts but one body.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Your argument is a mute point.

It was your argument. I just commented on it. I made it clear I wasn’t defending some of the extreme abuse alleged in the inquiry. I assume some of these allegations are true. Just like I assume some of the allegations leveled at priest and other religous over here were true. I also know that is easy to allege abuses by persons deceased. it’s not likely they’ll protest.

 

[cknick]

M FINN

What you are saying is that there is value in watching another be punished, to humiliate the person and to deter others from making the same errors.

Your thinking is leading you to the same types of errors in judgement that these brothers made.

According to the inquiry…

Witnesses described years of humiliation and abuse in the classroom. As a result of fear, they struggled with poor literacy their whole lives.

Witnesses reported being deprived of an education due to the classroom being dominated by fear, in anticipation of being abused.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Are you arguing against teaching that actions have consequences?

 

[Brickmaker]

Are you arguing against teaching that actions have consequences?

Doesn’t look much like the perps in Ireland are gonna suffer any consequences of their actions - only their victims are.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Disheartening? Yes without a doubt!..Disappointing? Yes with out a doubt!..but this (and sadly so many other scandalous issues like it)** should not**…in fact must not be a faith issue for you or me. Not even close to one!

Who & What is your faith…my faith… based on?

1. Divine Revelation both Divine Scripture and Divine Tradition…both made flesh by God the Father…in His Word Made Flesh…Our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. The Holy Father, The Vicar (Visible Head ) of Christ on Earth…the Bishop of Rome and the Supreme Pontiff of the One, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church which Jesus Christ founded on Saint Peter, The Rock, as made it His Body…and also made it His Bride…and all the bishops (hopefully our Local Church --diocese-- Bishop) who are in communion with the Holy Father and the Magisterium of the Church.
   
   (Note: the priest scandal is an example of bishops and priests who were** not in communion** with the Holy Father or the Magisterium of the Church).
   ​

That is not true. Of course they were in communion with Rome - the Popes thought the bishops involved were. Are people seriously expected to believe that enablers like the bishop of Fearns & the Archbishop of Boston were not in the same Church as the Pope of Rome ? As for the Magisterium - those two exercised it.​

As for 1 & 2 - they are no help whatever. Can’t people get it into their heads that far from helping, the thought of those things is part of the problem ? It is a mockery to suggest the thought of them could be any help, & for this reason: what has happened, makes those claims look utterly empty. People who want people to be comforted by thinking of 1 or 2, are doing nothing but rub salt in the wound. Where was this ever- so-marvellous Jesus while all these horrors were going on ? A fat lot of good he is

I also fall into this emotional or heart broken trap too often. No More for me!

Definitely no more Rome for me. I’m sick of the continual scandals & the lies & the manipulation & the lack of basic honesty. It’s like trying to breath poison. ​

Said another way…if a pilot takes off and does something stupid (breaks the most basic aviation rules) and crashes and kills all the people aboard (like that Captain and co-pilot did when they crashed going into Buffalo, NY–shooting the breeze below 10,000 feet…while making an approach in freezing rain conditions and then letting the normal approach speed of 155 KPH deteriorate to 60 KPH…and then when the plane stalled they…pulled the nose up rather than pushing it over and adding two fists fulls of power to recover)…do we then condemn aviation as unsafe…the plane manufacture as building an unsafe aircraft…and say that we can no longer believe in the safety of flying. No! They (crew and probably the airline) were not the model that aviation safety is built upon. Don’t judge aviation (airlines, plane manufactures and especially aircrews) on this bad example (just like in so many scandalous Church issues…this crew is not totally worthless…they can always be used as a bad example…how not to do it…likewise in the Church…the “bad examples” become similar to what Pontius Pilates became to all Christians in all times…until the end time!).

Your analogy overlooks something: the scandals in Ireland & the USA & Africa were known by the bishops to be going on; the bishops are among the criminals. Either they did nothing, or they looked the other way & let things continue as before, or they moved priests to fresh parished withourt warning the parishioners of the known behaviours of the priests. This is long-continued, systemic, conscious, deliberate wrong-doing that we are talking about. Add the behaviour of religious superiors, & the frantic attempts of bishops & superiors to avoid taking responsibility, moral *or *legal, & the wrong-doing is so great that it leaves your analogy limping. Yet how many of these have been charged or arrested, let alone tried ? Not one.​

So, if you or I want to doubt our faith…lets pick persons or events who do or exhibit exactly what our Catholic Faith (Church) teaches and calls for us to do…guides or prescribes for all faithful Catholics…say someone like Saint Patrick, or Blessed Columba Marmion, or Blessed Mother Theresa, or John Paul II The Great, or our current Pope Benedict XVI…not some poor sinner who did exactly what the Church says NOT TO DO!

JP the Useless was so “great” that he did not so much as meet any of those who were abused by US clergy. But he had no objections to hob-nobbing with Marcial Maciel, who founded the Legionaries of Christ; a man who had a daughter; as well as being a molester of seminarians. Why should these other ten-a-penny saints be any better ? There is no reason to assume they are. The very bishops people complain of, & the very bishops who in recent years hid all these scandals & denied justice to thousands, were put in place by JP2. That’s your great and wonderful JP2 - a fine pope he turned out to be. He jetted over the the world like nobody’s business, but when he was needed by those who had suffered greatly from predator priests, he was unavailable ​

I offer this for your consideration…with the hope that this helps…and remember, don’t feel like the “lone ranger” in this battle.

Pax Christi

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

This is just my personal opinion:

**There is no doubt that this is dysfunctional behavior; what they think is irrelevent. They are masochists who have no business in religious life. You just don’t beat the love of God into people or children and expect them to experience it later on in their lives. **

**However, these types of behaviors do not occur moreso in Catholicism. It occurs in all, if not moreso, other Christian denominations, but it is not reported as often as it is with regard to the Church. **

You also have to remember that the good sisters in your parish probably have nothing to do with what went on in Ireland. To hold them accountable for what occurred there is probably unfair and uncharitable.

But these people had power - of course their behaviour was dysfunctional, but what is the good in knowing that, if the person who is dysfunctional is the person who has power to make your life a living Hell ?​

No diagnosis of dysfunction, however accurate, is going to save a single child from being raped or thrashed; what’s needed is action to stop the abuse: and that action was not forthcoming. And can Catholics in positions of responsibility really not tell the difference between rape OTOH, & discipline on the other ? If not, then they are the last people who should have anything to do with the young.

“Other Christian denominations” are not the ones that allowed this abuse & these crimes: the RCC, did. Therefore, it is the RCC that is under the spotlight - as it should be.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

But these people had power - of course their behaviour was dysfunctional, but what is the good in knowing that, if the person who is dysfunctional is the person who has power to make your life a living Hell ?​

No diagnosis of dysfunction, however accurate, is going to save a single child from being raped or thrashed; what’s needed is action to stop the abuse: and that action was not forthcoming. And can Catholics in positions of responsibility really not tell the difference between rape OTOH, & discipline on the other ? If not, then they are the last people who should have anything to do with the young.

“Other Christian denominations” are not the ones that allowed this abuse & these crimes: the RCC, did. Therefore, it is the RCC that is under the spotlight - as it should be.

I hope you’re not suggesting that other denominations are spotless.

And I’m surprised that no one else takes issue with the wording of the thread’s title. Or don’t words and meaning count any more?