Abusing muhammad?

[anjoh66]

This is how Tafsir.com interprets that verse, and it even holds a more awful view.

Here Jesus is pictured as a coward, asking if anyone of the diciples would volunteer to take his place and be crucified instead of him.

Which clearly contradicts the teachings of Jesus in the bible where he said: No one has greater love than he who give his life for his friends.

According to that logic the diciple was greater than his master, as his master was a coward but the diciple volunteerd and was crucified in his place.

A horrible interpretation.

And this is from tafsir ibn kathir, one of the most authentic tafsirs according to muslims
Read and see:

Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Isa to the heavens, Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.’ He then asked, Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise)' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered and Isa asked him to sit down. Isa again asked for a volunteer, and the young man kept volunteering and Isa asking him to sit down. Then the young man volunteered again and Isa said, You will be that man,’ and the resemblance of Isa was cast over that man while Isa ascended to heaven from a hole in the house. When the Jews came looking for Isa, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Isa’s followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, Al-Yaqubiyyah (Jacobites), said, Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to heaven.’ Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (Nestorians), said, The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to heaven.' Another group, Muslims, said, The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.’ The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad .’’ This statement has an authentic chain of narration leading to Ibn Abbas, and An-Nasa'i narrated it through Abu Kurayb who reported it from Abu Muawiyah. Many among the Salaf stated that Isa asked if someone would volunteer for his appearance to be cast over him, and that he will be killed instead of Isa, for which he would be his companion in Paradise.

tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12730

 

[trdchubi]

No one is abusing mohamad.

Since mohamad the the koran was concieved, the only person islam is really offending is the historical and Biblical evidence of Jesus by trying to replace him with the false prophet/messenger.

All muslims say they love Jesus and all prophets equally, but muslima don’t freak out and kill people, riot, protest, burn down embasies, burn flags and effigies and commit all sort of chaos when someone talks badly about Jesus.

No muslim will come to the aid of a Christian ( in the name of Jesus Christ, islams prophet ) living in the middle east when they are being harrased or even killed.

One of mohamads biggest lies was telling people that Jesus didn’t actually die on the cross - he was replaced with a look-alike. I’ve read that islams sometimes claims it was a look-a-like or perhaps even Judas and that Christ just left and allah took Him up to the Heavens.

Muslims commit chaos, turn the world up side down and go on a killing spree when someone insults mohamad and islam, but they don’t do anything when someone insults Jesus.

I see a double standard and reminds me of taquiya… when it comes to islam and prophets, especially when it comes to Jesus Christ.

**Perhaps satan got pis…ed… off 600 years ago (from mohamads time) when Jesus would not bow and follow satan during satans temptation of Christ. Perhaps… just perhaps this is satans revenge…
**

Yeah satan has his chance but extremely failed to trick the Lord in his fasting. Guess what 600 years later satan got his chance again, but this time it was an easy prey.

Maybe its the heat of the desert, or the toll of the long fast that made this pagan arab an easy prey.

I always take noticed that when we are at our weakest we are prone to make mistake, i.e, irritability,annoyance, nausea, etc.

I guess muhammad failed miserably and fell in the fangs of satan during this holy act of body sacrifice.

 

[Reuben_J]

Yeah satan has his chance but extremely failed to trick the Lord in his fasting. Guess what 600 years later satan got his chance again, but this time it was an easy prey.

Maybe its the heat of the desert, or the toll of the long fast that made this pagan arab an easy prey.

I always take noticed that when we are at our weakest we are prone to make mistake, i.e, irritability,annoyance, nausea, etc.

I guess muhammad failed miserably and fell in the fangs of satan during this holy act of body sacrifice.

I happen to be quite familiar with psychology and if you ask me there are more to be said about Mohammad which arises from his childhood and family background. But enough is said about him; I am afraid Muslims may not be able to stomach my assessment of him. So I’ll leave it at that. I only want to assure you that you are not far off the mark yourself.

But the heat of the desert obviously got nothing to do with it though.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

… I am afraid Muslims may not be able to stomach my assessment of him. So I’ll leave it at that.

To you be your Way, and to me mine ( holy Quran; 109:6)

 

[inJESUS]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

To you be your Way, and to me mine ( holy Quran; 109:6)

wasn’t this verse abrogated?

 

[chrisse]

I happen to be quite familiar with psychology and if you ask me there are more to be said about Mohammad which arises from his childhood and family background. But enough is said about him; I am afraid Muslims may not be able to stomach my assessment of him. So I’ll leave it at that. I only want to assure you that you are not far off the mark yourself.

But the heat of the desert obviously got nothing to do with it though.

Mohammed isn’t Mohammed’s name. It’s Qatham (sorry it’s in arabic), which means damaged food apparently. Yep, he had some issues from childhood.

 

[inJESUS]

Mohammed isn’t Mohammed’s name. It’s Qatham (sorry it’s in arabic), which means damaged food apparently. Yep, he had some issues from childhood.

not only that, the author is saying there are things dropped and things added to the Quran and that Muhammad wasn’t illiterate at all.

 

[Reuben_J]

Mohammed isn’t Mohammed’s name. It’s Qatham (sorry it’s in arabic), which means damaged food apparently. Yep, he had some issues from childhood.

You know chrisse, how the Bible has gone through very intense scrutiny by scholars and unsympathetic critics and commentators all over the centuries. Despite all that it still stands unswayed in its message and authenticity.

And here a bunch of us lay people internet posters (granted not all are truly lay people) trying to dig a bit about the skeletons in Mohammad’s closet, and what happen? I tend to agree that the most probable reason why Islam does not want questions on its ideology (I think it’s ideology more than theology) is because it cannot stand honest scrutiny.

About the childhood issue and how it affected Mohammad’s adult behavior is very interesting. It might be too offensive to be disclosed openly here but this I can say: it is not surprisng that Mohammad did what he did.

 

[Jay53]

Still waiting. (From Post #298)

Originally Posted by **Sister Amy **
No, not all apostasy is treason.

Then do you explicitly condemn the killing of people who simply leave Islam and wish to practice another faith?

If Sister Amy isn’t/hasn’t been around, any other Muslim posters here may feel free to make this condemnation.

 

[inJESUS]

Tabari’s History, volume 10.

pages 55-7

Abu Bakr’s letter to the apostates.

… So God guided with the truth whoever responded to Him, and the Apostle of God, with His permission,** struck whoever turned his back to Him until he came to Islam, willingly or grudgingly**.

… I have learned that some of you have turned back from your religion after you had acknowledged Islam and labored in it, out of negligence of God and ignorance of His command, and in compliance with the devil….

… I have sent you someone at the head of an army of the Muhajirun and the Ansar and those who follow (them) in good works. I ordered him not to fight anyone or to kill anyone until he has called him to the cause of God; so that those who respond to him and acknowledge (Him) and renounce (unbelief) and do good works, (my envoy) shall accept him and help him to (do right), but I have ordered him to fight those who deny (Him) for that reason. So he will not spare any one of them he can gain mastery over, (but may) burn them with fire, slaughter them by any means, and take women and children captive; nor shall he accept from anyone anything except Islam.

Tabari’s History, volume 17, pages 187-88 :

Among them were many Christians who had accepted Islam, but when dissension had developed in Islam had said, “By God, our religion (din) from which we have departed is better and more correct than that which these people follow. Their religion does not stop them from shedding blood, terrifying the roads, and seizing properties.” And they returned to their former religion. Al-Khirrit met them and said to them, "Woe unto you! Do you know the precept (hukm) of ‘Ali regarding any Christian who accepts Islam and then reverts to Christianity? **By God he will not hear anything they say, he will not consider any excuse, he will not accept any repentance, and he will not summon them to it. His precept regarding them is immediate cutting off of the head when he gets hold of them. **

page 191

…But there was an old man among the, a Christian called al-Rumahis b. Mansur, who said, “By God the only error I have made since attaining reason was abandoning my religion, the religion of truth, for your, the religion of wickedness. No by God, I will not leave my religion and I will not accept yours so long as I live.” Ma’qil brought him forward and cut off his head."

Signature:
Religion of peace.

 

[chrisse]

Still waiting. (From Post #298)
Then do you explicitly condemn the killing of people who simply leave Islam and wish to practice another faith?

If Sister Amy isn’t/hasn’t been around, any other Muslim posters here may feel free to make this condemnation.

Sister Amy is probably around, but under another name. We’ve had a couple of Muslimah###'s appear at the time of Sister Amy’s disappearance.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sister Amy is probably around, but under another name. We’ve had a couple of Muslimah###'s appear at the time of Sister Amy’s disappearance.

nah I don’t think so. Sister Amy is in different league compared to these amateurs. When she dodged issues she would make you chasing shadows until most probably you’d give up or cracked your head as a result of banging it against the bricks or whichever is earlier.

 

[chrisse]

nah I don’t think so. Sister Amy is in different league compared to these amateurs. When she dodged issues she would make you chasing shadows until most probably you’d give up or cracked your head as a result of banging it against the bricks or whichever is earlier.

I said in another thread, and I’ll say it here, these guys are really funny. Of course, it’s easy for me to say that as I don’t live in a country where they could persecute me. Doubt I’d be laughing then … but in the meantime

 

[trdchubi]

But the heat of the desert obviously got nothing to do with it though.

Thanks. I live in a tropical country not even an arid one. Maybe Al Gore is right, the heat has intensify lately. I guess it affects the grey matter when one is starving and thirsty.

Maybe thats why this prophet has a crazy name for a last name…muham…mad as a bag of hammers.

I better eat something now, im starving or i’ll end up in the loony bin like this prophet.

 

[sedonaman]

wasn’t this verse abrogated?

“Way” could mean a “pathway” people use for travel, not a way of life.

“When I use a word, . . . it means precisely what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.” – Humpty Dumpty

 

[Jay53]

Bump I noticed Sister Amy is back (Welcome back ) Perhaps she can answer this. Although I noticed no other muslim posters chimed in here.

Still waiting. (From Post #298)

Originally Posted by Sister Amy
No, not all apostasy is treason.

 

[sedonaman]

No one is abusing mohamad.

Perhaps they should. Why? Because Islam lacks a concept of the Golden Rule and therefore is a false dogma, a heresy. Here is logical proof from Muslim posts:

Any one and every one who has not uttered the Kalima [the Muslim oath] is not a Kafir. Only those to whom the message of Islam is presented peacefully and given enough time to understand it, if they (or He) tries to not believe and tries to fight the Muslims and Islam and wages war against Islam and does not let others believe, he is a Kafir, described in the verses in a lose [loose] manner as a disbeliever.

He is not a simple disbeliever but a fanatic hostile disbeliever in Islam.

[H]e deserves to be killed because he is already on war path against Islam. What problem do you have against the enemies.?] We do not believe in your false theory of “Love thy enemy”. We can be kind to the enemy depending on the situation if kindness will help him to improve his ways.

If our kindness will spoil him more then we will not be kind with him. This our teaching is different to the teaching of the church “Love thy enemy”… Nobody can always do that and it is not fair to love all the enemies all the time.

Suppose, just suppose that non-Muslims adopted Islam’s philosophy described by planten and treated Muslims as he would treat kafirs/unbleivers? Suppose the Bible said,
Any one and every one who has not been baptized is not a [Hated, or fill in some other worse word in the human language] one. Only those to whom the message of Christianity is presented peacefully and given enough time to understand it, if they (or He) tries to not believe and tries to fight the Christians and Truth and wages war against Truth and does not let others believe, he is a [Hated, or fill in some other worse word in the human language] one, described in the verses in a loose manner as a disbeliever [or heretic].

He is not a simple disbeliever but a fanatic hostile disbeliever [or heretic] in Christianity.

[H]e deserves to be killed because he is already on war path against Christianity. What problem do you have against the enemies? We do not believe in your false theory of “wish for your brother”. We can be kind to the enemy depending on the situation if kindness will help him to improve his ways.
If our kindness will spoil him more then we will not be kind with him. This our teaching is different to the teaching of the Qur’an “wish for your brother”… Nobody can always do that and it is not fair to treat Muslims nice all the time.

?

Then there are the much maligned Crusades. If what planten says is true about Islamic beliefs, Muslims have no complaint about the Crusades; what goes around comes around. You have to expect back what you dish out.

Then Muslim Woman complains that,

In the West specially USA , Muslims are criminals unless proven innocent.

She and Sister Amy also complain about the way they are treated on this forum.

Now aren’t these simply a desire to be treated the same as others are treated, i.e., with human dignity? How can they expect equal treatment if they don’t believe in treating others as they wishes to be treated?

Do Muslims possess sufficient abstract thought to see that they are complaining about the exact thing they are advocating, and what the world would be like if everyone treated “The Other” as kafirs?

Wouldn’t the Islamic way be just a peachy keen way to run the world? How can there be “peace” if Islam treats even some of its own like kafirs?

 

[planten]

**sedonaman. I had made it clear. You missed my message. I agree that if you preach Catholicism peacefully to Muslims, if they believe it is alright. If they do not believe but do not oppose your peaceful preaching, that is also alright.

But if the Muslims or Hindus or any one else does not believe in church teachings and picks up arms to oppose/fight your peaceful preaching then they the Kaafir. You have a right to fight them back. But your preaching should be peaceful, not abusive, which is generally the case with christianity.

I know that the Muslims in their countries do not allow you to do any preaching. The same is the case in India (by the Hindus) too. The Hindus are very much upset because the church people give plenty of bribe to convert people of othe rfaiths. The church provides good living, even a new wife, a bangalow etc. That is unfair. That is not preaching. The Hindus and the Muslims do not like that. So they oppose your preaching and they are justified in my opinion.

I hope you understand who is a Kaafir. A good example of the Kafirs had been the King Pharoah. Also, the Jewish clergy who opposed Jesus, in my opinion.**

 

[chrisse]

**sedonaman. I had made it clear. You missed my message. I agree that if you preach Catholicism peacefully to Muslims, if they believe it is alright. If they do not believe but do not oppose your peaceful preaching, that is also alright.

But if the Muslims or Hindus or any one else does not believe in church teachings and picks up arms to oppose/fight your peaceful preaching then they the Kaafir. You have a right to fight them back. But your preaching should be peaceful, not abusive, which is generally the case with christianity.

I know that the Muslims in their countries do not allow you to do any preaching. The same is the case in India (by the Hindus) too. The Hindus are very much upset because the church people give plenty of bribe to convert people of othe rfaiths. The church provides good living, even a new wife, a bangalow etc. That is unfair. That is not preaching. The Hindus and the Muslims do not like that. So they oppose your preaching and they are justified in my opinion.

I hope you understand who is a Kaafir. A good example of the Kafirs had been the King Pharoah. Also, the Jewish clergy who opposed Jesus, in my opinion.**

I think somewhere in that ramble, planten was equating islamic aggression with self defence.

 

[Reuben_J]

** But your preaching should be peaceful, not abusive, which is generally the case with christianity.

**

Muslims have very low threshold of tolerance, especially if it’s anything to do with Mohammad.

No Christians believe the above statement because it is inherently false; there is no way they know what peaceful means as it’s the Muslims’ definition.