Abusing muhammad?

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I think somewhere in that ramble, planten was equating islamic aggression with self defence.
… there is no way they know what peaceful means as it’s the Muslims’ definition.
Muslims claim that “Mohammad fought only in self-defense.” This is absurd to any rational person since Mohammad’s aggression is well-documented, even in Islamic texts. The key to their claim is the word “defense”. Consider that to the Muslim, the world is divided into two: the House of Islam and the House of War. That which is not Islamic, by definition, is the House of War … it is the House of War – again, by definition – that wages war. Since Muslims are under a command from Allah to subject the whole world to Islamic rule, the very existence of the House of War and the simple existence of an unbeliever are acts of aggression against Islam: how dare anyone defy the will of Allah? Since even passive “passive” by our definition] resistance by unbelievers must be overcome to fulfill the will of Allah, they are “forced” to take up arms and fight the House of War. Ergo, Muslims fight only “defensive” wars.

Which brings us to planten’s false analogy,
…But if the Muslims or Hindus or any one else does not believe in church teachings and picks up arms to oppose/fight your peaceful preaching then they the Kaafir. You have a right to fight them back.
I say “false” because, not only does it not represent a typical rejection of Christian preaching, it does not even represent a typical Muslim reaction to a rejection of his “preaching”. Typical Muslim “preaching” is a Muslim army showing up at your border and saying, “Convert to Islam or die!” The mere rejection of such an “offer” constitutes “taking up arms” against Islam because, again, unbelievers/kafirs cannot be allowed to exist because it is an act of war against Islam.

“The precept of the Koran is perpetual war against all who deny that Mahomet [sic] is the prophet of Allah. … Such is the spirit which governs the hearts of men to whom treachery and violence are taught as principles of religion.” – John Adams on jihad, dhimmitude, and the Muslim view of non-Muslims.
 
Hi! I noticed Sister Amy is back. (Welcome Back, BTW :))

Still waiting. (From Posts #298 and #428)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Amy
No, not all apostasy is treason.
Then do you explicitly condemn the killing of people who simply leave Islam and wish to practice another faith?

If Sister Amy isn’t/hasn’t been around, any other Muslim posters here may feel free to make this condemnation.

Edit: BTW, I noticed that no other Muslim posters wanted to acknowledge this. 🤷
 
Quote by Reuben J

With what Reuben has stated here, i would like to know how we have abused mohammed. The things we have brought up about mohammad, are factual and real. I do not see how bringing up the truth is abuse, but if we have ‘abused’ your prophet, please enlighten us. 🙂
From what I have seen there is a great deal of vitriol of the man. I cannot say what Muslims consider abuse but there have certainly been immature comments which seem to be aimed at getting a rise out of Muslims.

There have often been rather rude or “abusive” things said about Islam.
It would be unreasonable for Muslims to object to the critical investigation of their religion’s foundations and its assertions. Unfortunately many of the posts here do not seem to be intelligent discussions of the moral or factual deficits which may or may not be present in Islam. Rather much of it seems to be shrill individuals throwing as much as they can against the wall and seeing what sticks.
 
Hi! I noticed Sister Amy is back. (Welcome Back, BTW :))

Still waiting. (From Posts #298 and #428)

Then do you explicitly condemn the killing of people who simply leave Islam and wish to practice another faith?

If Sister Amy isn’t/hasn’t been around, any other Muslim posters here may feel free to make this condemnation.

Edit: BTW, I noticed that no other Muslim posters wanted to acknowledge this. 🤷
And yet another day goes by with no response. 🤷
Perhaps I’ll add this to the “No compulsion in religion” thread since it seems to fit better there anyway. Maybe I’ll get a response from Muslim posters there. 🤷
 
Muslims have very low threshold of tolerance, especially if it’s anything to do with Mohammad.

No Christians believe the above statement because it is inherently false; there is no way they know what peaceful means as it’s the Muslims’ definition.
** Reuben, I see here that axe has fallen on paarsurrey due to compulsion of the church. In my opinion you may teach and preach peacefully as much as you like. No harm at all. If any one converts to christian faith then all the best for you. No harm to us again. Peaceful means peaceful and no abuse and no bribery or coertion.

You may teach and preach the good points of your religion. But do not attack the beliefs of the other faiths. That is a peaceful way of preaching. That is what i believe. But I do not give any guarantee that you will be allowed into any Muslim country to do those good things. It is your previous faults or fault of the Muslim countries who do not allow any evangelising in their countries. Nothing to do with me. I did not tell them to disallow the christians preachings.

They forbid you for some reasons but not due to any Islamic provision. There is a bar on the preaching of enmity though, the enmity of Islam is not to be preached in Muslim countries. Like wise the enmity to church teachings may also not be allowed to be preached by the Muslims. i.e. bad abusive words etc.**
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace
And yet another day goes by with no response.
we can’t stay in a hostile forum 24/7 . Also , your question has been answered in the forum several times .

Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam?

By Dr. Jamal A. Badawi**

There is no single verse in the Qur’an which prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy.

Evidence from the Qur’an

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy. Verses about apostasy in the Qur’an speak only about God’s punishment of the apostate in the Hereafter. The following Qur’anic verses illustrate two examples:

Your enemies will not cease to fight against you till they have turned you away from your faith, if they can. But if any of you should turn away from his/her faith and die as a denier [of the truth] – these it is whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the life to come; and these it is who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.] (Al-Baqarah 2:217)

[Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth — God will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:137)

It is important to note in the above verse that if the Qur’an prescribes capital punishment for apostasy, then the apostate should be killed after the first instance of apostasy. As such there would be no opportunity to “again come to believe and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth”. In spite of these acts of repeated apostasy, no capital punishment is prescribed for them

islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2006/04/Article02.shtml
 
we can’t stay in a hostile forum 24/7 . Also , your question has been answered in the forum several times .

Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam?

By Dr. Jamal A. Badawi**

There is no single verse in the Qur’an which prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy.

Evidence from the Qur’an

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy. Verses about apostasy in the Qur’an speak only about God’s punishment of the apostate in the Hereafter. The following Qur’anic verses illustrate two examples:

Your enemies will not cease to fight against you till they have turned you away from your faith, if they can. But if any of you should turn away from his/her faith and die as a denier [of the truth] – these it is whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the life to come; and these it is who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.] (Al-Baqarah 2:217)

[Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth — God will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:137)

It is important to note in the above verse that if the Qur’an prescribes capital punishment for apostasy, then the apostate should be killed after the first instance of apostasy. As such there would be no opportunity to “again come to believe and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth”. In spite of these acts of repeated apostasy, no capital punishment is prescribed for them

islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2006/04/Article02.shtml
It is however in the hadiths.

In a country where shariah law is the civil law death is the penalty for apostates.

The Reliance of the Traveller, Justice - Apostasy from Islam(Ridda), page 595/596 :
o8.0 Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst. It may come about through sarcasm, as when someone is told, “Trim your nails, it is sunna”, and he replies, “I would not do it even it it were” …
o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (or his representative) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.
So, as can be seen from the example in o8.0 above, it is quite easy to be accused of apostasy. And, as can be imagined, under Shariah Law where there are laws of evidence/defence, many abuses can occur; as well as the sheer barbarity of the penalty.
 
** Reuben, I see here that axe has fallen on paarsurrey due to compulsion of the church. In my opinion you may teach and preach peacefully as much as you like. No harm at all. If any one converts to christian faith then all the best for you. No harm to us again. Peaceful means peaceful and no abuse and no bribery or coertion.

You may teach and preach the good points of your religion. But do not attack the beliefs of the other faiths. That is a peaceful way of preaching. That is what i believe. But I do not give any guarantee that you will be allowed into any Muslim country to do those good things. It is your previous faults or fault of the Muslim countries who do not allow any evangelising in their countries. Nothing to do with me. I did not tell them to disallow the christians preachings.

They forbid you for some reasons but not due to any Islamic provision. There is a bar on the preaching of enmity though, the enmity of Islam is not to be preached in Muslim countries. Like wise the enmity to church teachings may also not be allowed to be preached by the Muslims. i.e. bad abusive words etc.**
What do you mean by axe has fallen on Paarsurrey due to compulsion of the church?
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

we can’t stay in a hostile forum 24/7 . Also , your question has been answered in the forum several times .

Is Apostasy a Capital Crime in Islam?

By Dr. Jamal A. Badawi**

There is no single verse in the Qur’an which prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy.

Evidence from the Qur’an

There is no single verse in the Qur’an that prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy. Verses about apostasy in the Qur’an speak only about God’s punishment of the apostate in the Hereafter. The following Qur’anic verses illustrate two examples:

Your enemies will not cease to fight against you till they have turned you away from your faith, if they can. But if any of you should turn away from his/her faith and die as a denier [of the truth] – these it is whose works will bear no fruit in this world and in the life to come; and these it is who are destined for the fire, therein to abide.] (Al-Baqarah 2:217)

[Behold, as for those who come to believe, and then deny the truth, and again come to believe, and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth — God will not forgive them, nor will guide them in any way.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:137)

It is important to note in the above verse that if the Qur’an prescribes capital punishment for apostasy, then the apostate should be killed after the first instance of apostasy. As such there would be no opportunity to “again come to believe and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth”. In spite of these acts of repeated apostasy, no capital punishment is prescribed for them

islamonline.net/english/Contemporary/2006/04/Article02.shtml
I don’t want you to placate me with verses, I want YOU personally to say YOU condemn the killing of apostates who simply leave Islam to practice another faith. You can quote me all the verses you want, but when the reality in practice doesn’t match that, your words mean nothing.
 
And yet another day goes by with no response. 🤷
Perhaps I’ll add this to the “No compulsion in religion” thread since it seems to fit better there anyway. Maybe I’ll get a response from Muslim posters there. 🤷
hi jay.

i started this thread awhile back when i was just starting to understand islam. i call them my “shock days” … :eek:. in my thread is another link to another thread that had a poll going where muslims answered your question, but then it was taken down. also, sister amy does give comments in my thread so that may be of help.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=255031
 
I wonder why Muslims call it abuse when we criticize the bad and immoral deeds and teachings of Muhammad, yet they do not remember how Muhammad cursed the Jews and Christians before his death…is this not abuse?
 
hi jay.

i started this thread awhile back when i was just starting to understand islam. i call them my “shock days” … :eek:. in my thread is another link to another thread that had a poll going where muslims answered your question, but then it was taken down. also, sister amy does give comments in my thread so that may be of help.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=255031
Jen,

Thanks for the link. 🙂 It was an interesting discussion, but I noticed that other than planten, no other Muslims seemed to respond much. I wonder why that is? I would just like some honesty in the discussion. Muslims seem to like to quote the verse about “no compulsion in religion”, but I don’t see anyone other than planten saying “I don’t think/believe apostates from Islam should be killed just for changing their religion.” Sister Amy brought up the treason argument, but then admitted that not all apostasy is treason, and has yet to condemn the practice of killing apostates.

Do Muslims actually believe they should be killed and are afraid to admit that to non-Muslims? Or do they believe apostates shouldn’t be killed, but don’t want other Muslims to know that they don’t subscribe to this tenet of Islam? 🤷
 
Jen,

Thanks for the link. 🙂 It was an interesting discussion, but I noticed that other than planten, no other Muslims seemed to respond much. I wonder why that is? I would just like some honesty in the discussion. Muslims seem to like to quote the verse about “no compulsion in religion”, but I don’t see anyone other than planten saying “I don’t think/believe apostates from Islam should be killed just for changing their religion.” Sister Amy brought up the treason argument, but then admitted that not all apostasy is treason, and has yet to condemn the practice of killing apostates.

Do Muslims actually believe they should be killed and are afraid to admit that to non-Muslims? Or do they believe apostates shouldn’t be killed, but don’t want other Muslims to know that they don’t subscribe to this tenet of Islam? 🤷
The line I usually hear from muslims when confronted with the truth and horror of their cult, no matter how disgusting, ie sexually molesting babies, is that allah knows best.
 
And yet another day goes by with no response.
Perhaps I’ll add this to the “No compulsion in religion” thread since it seems to fit better there anyway. Maybe I’ll get a response from Muslim posters there.
I think there has been a possible mistranslation. Maybe it should read, “No compulsion to respond.”
 
Jen,

Thanks for the link. 🙂 It was an interesting discussion, but I noticed that other than planten, no other Muslims seemed to respond much. I wonder why that is? I would just like some honesty in the discussion. Muslims seem to like to quote the verse about “no compulsion in religion”, but I don’t see anyone other than planten saying “I don’t think/believe apostates from Islam should be killed just for changing their religion.” Sister Amy brought up the treason argument, but then admitted that not all apostasy is treason, and has yet to condemn the practice of killing apostates.

Do Muslims actually believe they should be killed and are afraid to admit that to non-Muslims? Or do they believe apostates shouldn’t be killed, but don’t want other Muslims to know that they don’t subscribe to this tenet of Islam? 🤷
both.

i think that westerners are given the light version of islam otherwise they would not convert. as to the the majority of muslims raised under sharia law, i do believe they know exactly what the teaching is and that is that if you denounce islam you are to be killed or punished in some manner.

there have been muslim posters on this forum that don’t seem to have any problem with killing a married person for committing adultery either. one woman even wrote that someone should be killed if she wrote bad poetry against allah, mohammed, or an innocent muslim. their mentality is utterly frightening.

of course deep down they would rather mercy be shown, but how can they change what they mistakenly believe to be God’s will? keep praying for them that they may come to know God and the Holy Church He founded.
 
no, i do believe they believe they are worshipping the one true God. unfortunately they have been led astray as to what His teachings are. they have a warped view concerning God, but never-the-less they are worshiping God.

if your father told you things about your mother that were not true, you as a child would probably believe him and still would be able to say that you know your mother.

it is tragic mohammed taught so many falsehoods concerning God.
 
no, i do believe they believe they are worshipping the one true God. unfortunately they have been led astray as to what His teachings are. they have a warped view concerning God, but never-the-less they are worshiping God.
There was a time in ancient Egypt when they worshiped the sun god Ra. They believe him to be the one true god. Would you conclude that they worshiped the same God we do?
 
There was a time in ancient Egypt when they worshiped the sun god Ra. They believe him to be the one true god. Would you conclude that they worshiped the same God we do?
I beleive your Church has a different position than you. *Lumen Gentium *comes to mind
 
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