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Semper_Fi_1
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Catholics aren’t Orthodox Evangelicals?
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Church_Militant
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We believe that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict men, indwell, guide, instruct and empower the believer for godly living and service.
We believe in the spiritual unity of believers through our common faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and that individual doctrinal differences which may exist aside from these foundational beliefs should not hinder the unity of Christian home educatorsThe bolded parts are the only things that I see that are of concern.
The line about “and accept Christ as Lord and Savior.” is just the typical generic terminology.
It is unscriptural in that there is no such phrase used anywhere in the New Testament. It refers to the basic presentation of the “way of salvation” of many n-Cs. It does not conform to anything that was historically taught by the Christian church until modern times. To the best of my knowledge, none of the reformers used such terms.
The main problem that Catholics have is that most n-Cs see conversion as a one time event (hence the “I got saved” part of their discussions and testimonies) and we see it as a process that is life-long. This especially ties in with the eternal security/ OSAS beliefs, but that’s a subject being dealt with elsewhere on other threads.
That last bolded part can also be problematic in that where most n-Cs that make such statements hold that some things are not necessary for salvation and Catholics have Biblical and historical reasons for disagreeing with them, like Baptism and the Eucharistic Real Presence just to name a couple. Those “peripheral” beliefs are not peripheral to Catholics.
Most n-Cs will say that communion is symbolic and commemorative and that every believer should be baptized but that it is not necessary to salvation.
So there are the basic difficulties as I see them. You may find yourself seeking a Catholic group to switch to.
Know that you are in my prayers.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
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Atemi
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Awesome. That is what every one of us is called to do.
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JLSacred
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I think Church Militant made an accurate analysis in his post. One thing that really irritates me about Evangelicals in ecumenical settings is that they use these tactics to pressure Catholics and other non-Evangelicals into accepting their version of the Gospel as the the one that is free of denominational taint, and is the essense of Christ’s message, which is to accept him as personal Lord and Savior.
But, is that what the Gospels tell us? No, the Evangelicals conveniently ignore many parts of the Bible. What about the sheep and goat parable? What about the Lord’s prayer that tells us that we must forgive in order to be forgiven? Those passages don’t tell us that we will be saved, no matter what, if we’ve merely accepted Jesus into our hearts! They specifically outline actions that we must do in order to be recognized by Christ. We must serve the least of God’s children in order to serve Christ.
Does that mean Evangelicals are worse Christians than Catholics? Of course not. But, it puts a big damper on ecunemical relations when it all must be on their terms, stripped of our rich Catholic spiritualities. We are forced to walk on eggshells around them. We must not mention Mary, or refer to the saints as saints. There are so many things that we do that make them ‘uncomfortable’. We must essentially keep our mouths shut, much like we are forced to do in social settings about homosexuality, abortion, unwed motherhood, and so forth. We do this because our opinions on these subjects are against the societal grain, therefore taboo. That is how I’ve felt when attempting to fellowship with Evangelicals.
But, is that what the Gospels tell us? No, the Evangelicals conveniently ignore many parts of the Bible. What about the sheep and goat parable? What about the Lord’s prayer that tells us that we must forgive in order to be forgiven? Those passages don’t tell us that we will be saved, no matter what, if we’ve merely accepted Jesus into our hearts! They specifically outline actions that we must do in order to be recognized by Christ. We must serve the least of God’s children in order to serve Christ.
Does that mean Evangelicals are worse Christians than Catholics? Of course not. But, it puts a big damper on ecunemical relations when it all must be on their terms, stripped of our rich Catholic spiritualities. We are forced to walk on eggshells around them. We must not mention Mary, or refer to the saints as saints. There are so many things that we do that make them ‘uncomfortable’. We must essentially keep our mouths shut, much like we are forced to do in social settings about homosexuality, abortion, unwed motherhood, and so forth. We do this because our opinions on these subjects are against the societal grain, therefore taboo. That is how I’ve felt when attempting to fellowship with Evangelicals.
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Atemi
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What “tactics” do you refer to?
Shock that some Catholics flee or even abhor the concept of having Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior?
Yes. It is shocking, yet here it is.
The Gospels do not tell you to submit to Jesus as Lord of all and believe in Him as Saviour of mankind?
Wow.
Please read your Scriptures.
This is appalling.
That is ignored?
LOL. You don’t know what you are talking about.
LOL!
Our Pastor just spoke on that this evening. More “ignoring” for sure.
You truly don’t know what you speak of here.
And not any decent Christian worth their doctrinal salt will tell you otherwise. You speak as if Catholics have some sort of monoploy on serving God!
LOL.
I was a Catholic for most of my life. My family is Catholic. My friends are Catholics. I live and breath Catholicism on a daily basis.
There is surely NO monopoly of serving God among Catholics, and that is for sure.
Maybe the Gospel doesn’t need developed “Catholic spiritualities.” Sorry to disappoint.
Try posting here as a non-Catholic!
LOL.
I never heard that rule. I guess I didn’t get the latest Evangelical memo.
This has nothing to do with non-Catholic Christians, IMV. It sounds like it has almost everything to do with you and your personal sensitivities.
Get over the fact that there are those who disagree with you and say so, and we will get over the fact that you do not believe as we and say so.
Easy, really.
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Mannyfit75
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What are you talking about? Practicing Catholics received the Lord everyday at Mass and Sunday Mass, we consumed His Blessed Body and Blood. If a Catholic abhor or flee as you claim then they deceived themselves. You are wrong to make an assumption.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ calls us to love God, love our neighbor and obey his all that he commanded us. We must believe and live by our faith in God.
In some Protestant denomination yes. They don’t received the Lord’s Supper at service. Some received him monthly. Yet the Our Father speaks that, “Give Us This Day, Our Daily Bread.”
Which the Catholic Mass in the daily Mass.
LOL!
Our Pastor just spoke on that this evening. More “ignoring” for sure.
You truly don’t know what you speak of here.
And not any decent Christian worth their doctrinal salt will tell you otherwise. You speak as if Catholics have some sort of monoploy on serving God!
LOL.
I was a Catholic for most of my life. My family is Catholic. My friends are Catholics. I live and breath Catholicism on a daily basis.
Then why did you leave? You ought to remain Catholic because the Church is the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth.
Before Protestantism and Eastern Orthodox, yes the Catholics have a monopoly.
The Gospel develop that is how we got the Trinity doctrine.
I have said enough.
I never heard that rule. I guess I didn’t get the latest Evangelical memo.
This has nothing to do with non-Catholic Christians, IMV. It sounds like it has almost everything to do with you and your personal sensitivities.
Get over the fact that there are those who disagree with you and say so, and we will get over the fact that you do not believe as we and say so.
Easy, really.
We believe Protestants contain partial truth. During the Reformation they took away priesthood, sacraments, and other doctrines of the Catholic Church. They only kept the Scripture, and Martin Luther remove 7 Books from the OT and put Revelation, James, Jude, and Hebrews in the appendix which he did not think these writings were not inspired and called James the epistle of straw.
That is why we Catholic think everyone should come Home.
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Church_Militant
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I don’t know about everyone else but i personally would much appreciate it if you’d stop twisting what people say to suit your anti-Catholic agenda. And that is exactly what you did there.
No one said that we flee from or abhor the gospel, but you can’t show me anyplace in the New Testament where it uses the terminology, “Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior”. It not there and therefore…even according to you own “Bible only” belief system, it’s unscriptural.
read your Scriptures.In fact they do and that is the Gospel that the Catholic Church presents every Mass, despite your allegations to the contrary. You wouldn’t admit it because if you did them you’d begin to question the propaganda that you have believed and possibly discover (as I did) that you have been misled by the people you have trusted to teach you.
Yeah… I thought so too when I compared actual Catholic teaching to the Bible and the things that the early church, who died horrible deaths for the faith after being discipled by the apostles.
?As a matter of fact he’s absolutely right. there are all kinds of passages in the Bible tat teach Catholic beliefs and in 34 years among n-Cs I never heard a message on any of them…not one. And I’m a note taker, so I’d know.
Yeah… but I do.
. More “ignoring” for sure.So, you’re gonna trust this guy who is not a Catholic to tell you about what Catholics believe?
That’s a lot like asking a garbage man about rocket science. You’ll get answers, but would you want to trust them to launch yourself into space? Not me…
have some sort of monoploy on serving God!This is nothing but an allegation without substance. Do you have anything of substance? Maybe a thread you have opened on some Catholic teaching that you believe to be unscriptural.
Do you really want to discus and debate us here or is this all about the cheap shots?
Nervous laughter? I’ll do ya one better here then too.
Great… then you should’ve known better than let someone with a Bible proselytize you out of the faith. I should have too, and based on the level of anti-Catholic propaganda you have bought into and the persistent cheap shots I’d say that even up to the time when I began to really look into Catholic teaching and the Bible and history you make me look like Bishop Sheen by comparison.
NO monopoly of serving God among Catholics, and that is for sure.If that is what we teach then I’d worry about it, but it’s just another cheap shot at a straw man.
“Catholic spiritualities.” Sorry to disappoint.Really? Okay then, please show me where the phrase that this thread is stated anywhere in the Bible?
What? It’s not there you say? But how can that be, since you just told us that the gospel doesn’t need developing? Yet this is a modern development that doesn’t even date back to the reformers. This must be a teaching of man then, right? (Matthew 15:9 right?)
Try posting something of substance instead of rhetoric and propaganda if you have anything.
and say so, and we will get over the fact that you do not believe as we and say so.We might when guys like you begin to really engage in charitable discussions or even debates (which any number of n-Cs do to this day and have for a long time) instead of cranking out cheap shots. Otherwise you are wasting your time and ours.
I challenge you to open a couple of threads on single issues and we will happily and charitably deal with it.
C’mon Atemi, I’m certainly not scared of anything that you can post, and I know for sure my fellow Catholics here aren’t.
Review the Forum Rules and Banned Topics Policy and I know for a fact that if you debate with charity and respect you won’t have a problem with the Mods.
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JLSacred
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Thank you Church Militant for that strong defense. The ‘tactics’ I’m speaking of refer to the way Evangelicals, disguised as ‘Non Denominational Christians’, use the Non Denominational label to hide behind in Ecumenical settings. They ask you if you’ve accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. What they mean by this is if you have had the classic ‘Born Again’ experience as promoted by the Evangelical belief system.
They boil down salvation to having had this one time experience, which flies in the face of Catholic theology and also Scripture. The Catholic faith views the Christian walk as an ongoing journey towards salvation, assisted by the Sacramental life, and ultimately attained though the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Yet, when ever I’ve been in Ecumenical settings, the lowest common denominator is always assumed to be having “accepted Jesus into my heart”(show me that passage from the Bible please). Any mention of the Blessed Mother, or any use of Catholic phraseology, is met with an uncomfortable silence. The unwritten rule of such events is that the Catholic POV is unwelcome.
They boil down salvation to having had this one time experience, which flies in the face of Catholic theology and also Scripture. The Catholic faith views the Christian walk as an ongoing journey towards salvation, assisted by the Sacramental life, and ultimately attained though the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Yet, when ever I’ve been in Ecumenical settings, the lowest common denominator is always assumed to be having “accepted Jesus into my heart”(show me that passage from the Bible please). Any mention of the Blessed Mother, or any use of Catholic phraseology, is met with an uncomfortable silence. The unwritten rule of such events is that the Catholic POV is unwelcome.
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Truthstalker
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I think most evangelicals would be very surprised to hear this from Catholics. Such statements such as the one discussed in the OP are usually made without any intent to exclude Catholics - or even any thought that it might. Catholics are often just forgotten about, or benignly regarded as “just another denomination.” The writers of these statements are usually just trying for all Christians to be one, and this is their attempt.
I would be careful about attributing malice where none may be intended. There is plenty of intended malice to go around, but there is also unintended. Whoever wrote this might want to work towards some way that Catholics could be included, and didn’t realized anyone could possibly take it as excluding Catholics. You might try a peaceful approach, especially as you were asked for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I think that means what you have to say is important, and it is the wrong time to decide they are antiCatholics. As I read the OP, they want to work with you, not against you. I would assume the problem is unintended and work towards a solution.
I’m also a little leery about the writing of statements of faith. The law of unintended consequences can snare anyone. After reading Theodoret, I’m just about convinced that it is almost impossible to describe the Trinity or the Incarnation without saying something erroneous - this stuff is subtle. The Creeds were very carefully written. It’s not meant as a slam to say that some lay people sitting around someone’s living room on a Tuesday night are not up to the challenge of writing good theological creeds that allow Christian unity but exclude non-Christians. I think the professional theologians have been trying this for a long time.
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guanophore
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I don’t really understand this. How is it that Christ’s sacrifice is not substitutionary? Maybe I have been contaminated by Calvinsim and did not know?
what does this verse mean, if it is not substitutionary? thanks for your help.
2 Cor 5:21
"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. "
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