Accepting Jesus as Personal Lord and Savior

[Reuben_J]

The problem with the “expierence” is that these emotional events are not the grounds for being saved. They could be the work of the Spirit or something else. If a person wants to know if they are truly saved they should not rely on expierence of these things or that they made a profession sometime in the past but are they at this moment pursuing Christ. Are they hungering for righteousness in their lives? Are they seeking to pattern their lives after Him? 2 Peter 1:4-11 is an excellent “criteria” to examine ourselves with if we truly are in the faith.

Do you have an answer of how you know that you are saved? Can you tell us if you know that you are ‘saved’? Is there any sign or criteria to it?

Let say a person accepted Christ. Subsequently he experienced sincere hunger for righteousness. He lived a life that pattern after the life of Jesus. He lived a life that was confirming excellently to 2 Pet 1:4-11. He continued to live this life for 30 years, one day without fail.

Then his wife died suddenly and he lost his job. He could not get over it. In the course of trying to recover after experiencing his sudden misfortune, he became ‘stray’ and mixed with wrong company because it so happened that these people were there for him at that oppurtune moment. He eventually delved into sin and became non-believer.

Is this person saved? Thanks.

 

[Ruthie]

I once asked someone who professed OSAS whether, if Billy Graham were to go on a one-day spree of robbery and murder after his long life spent bringing people to Christ, would he be saved?

The answer was that, in that case, he had never been saved to begin with.

How should we understand John 10:27-28 which says –
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

You emphasized the wrong part. “they follow Me” is one of the conditions here. Granted that He will leave the ninety and nine to go after a stray - but His sheep have to follow Him. We hear His voice and follow, *then *we get to the the part you bolded.​

One of the things I always disliked about the Chick tracts is the little statement you were supposed to sign at the end. something like “I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior.” This makes it sound like the “magic words” that unlock the gates of Heaven. And, in my searching days, I met several people who seemed to think that those words *were *some kind of formula for salvation. Where is that in the Bible? ​

I’m genuinely sorry that some non-Catholic Christians (NCCs) are insulted when we paint them with a broad brush. We’re not insulting them intentionally, though there may be a couple of exceptions to that…

That’s one of the problems we **all **have; with all the NCC sects out there, how do we know which ones believe what? And there are so many “pew sitters” in *every *church that sit there on Sundays without really knowing what their *own *church teaches, let alone what a different church does.

I spend a fair amount of time learning my own faith, and explaining that we Catholics don’t worship statues, the Saints, or Mary and that, yes, we are Christians, and that no, we don’t think we can earn our way to Heaven. I really don’t have enough time left to study the doctrines of the 2000 or so NCC churches, not to mention what each of the non-denominational churches teach.

In fact, that’s one reason I hang out in this forum - to learn something about other faiths.

God bless us all,

Ruthie

 

[jfallaw]

MarcoPolo;4357738:

Catholics agree with this completely, but believe it entails a faith working through love and obedience, which some denominations limit to an intellectual assent of faith only./

QUOTE]

That is not true at all. As a Protestant I have never met any non-catholic Christian who believes what you just wrote. Your statement implies that we don’t care about works at all. You make it sound like it’s no big deal for us just as long as we say the words. That’s a horrible misconception. Faith for us is not a punch-line. It happens to be real to us, and works play a major role in our faith. We don’t sweep them under the rug and justify things with a mental assent.

MarcoPolo meant no offense. Notice he said SOME denominations, not ‘all Protestants’. To be fair, many Catholics seem to only pay lip service to Christ. I have known many great Protestants and have been so blessed by many of them.

 

[guanophore]

The problem with the “expierence” is that these emotional events are not the grounds for being saved.

Thank God for that!

They could be the work of the Spirit or something else. If a person wants to know if they are truly saved they should not rely on expierence of these things or that they made a profession sometime in the past but are they at this moment pursuing Christ. Are they hungering for righteousness in their lives? Are they seeking to pattern their lives after Him? 2 Peter 1:4-11 is an excellent “criteria” to examine ourselves with if we truly are in the faith.

It is very Catholic of you to say this.

 

[guanophore]

Wrong. I do not believe that it ends after I get baptized. It ends when I am dead, and then it starts in heaven, in hell, I doubt that I’d go to hell if I believened Jesus.

You seem to be a very sincere disciple. How come you are so hostile to the Catholic Church?

 

[ChristianKnight]

You seem to be a very sincere disciple. How come you are so hostile to the Catholic Church?

Cause the Catholic Church is hostile to me.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Cause the Catholic Church is hostile to me.

The Catholic Church is billions and billions of people ~ too many to count. Surely not all of them are hostile to you. “The Church” consists of people.

 

[guanophore]

Cause the Catholic Church is hostile to me.

I hope you are not confusing the Holy Bride of Christ with the excessive prattlings of overzealous apologists on CAF (I include myself in this description).

Or are you referring to teachings of the Church that you find objectionable? If that is too personal a question I will accept being confused.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Your statement implies that we don’t care about works at all. You make it sound like it’s no big deal for us just as long as we say the words.

**HEY-- I heard LOTS of sermons claiming that back when I was a Baptist before I got saved.

What’s funny is that those “Bible-only” Christians are quite surprised when they hear that that formula “personal Lord and Savior” or even “personal Savior” is nowhere in the Bible.**

 

[ChristianKnight]

The Catholic Church is billions and billions of people ~ too many to count. Surely not all of them are hostile to you. “The Church” consists of people.

I hope you are not confusing the Holy Bride of Christ with the excessive prattlings of overzealous apologists on CAF (I include myself in this description).

Or are you referring to teachings of the Church that you find objectionable? If that is too personal a question I will accept being confused.

I’ll address this in another topic.

 

[Ag_not]

Cause the Catholic Church is hostile to me.

The Church is NOT hostile to you - you may have met some hostile people which is regretable and sad, but don’t tar the whole church based on some not so nice people you encountered here or in real life.

 

[justasking4]

Do you have an answer of how you know that you are saved? Can you tell us if you know that you are ‘saved’? Is there any sign or criteria to it?

Let say a person accepted Christ. Subsequently he experienced sincere hunger for righteousness. He lived a life that pattern after the life of Jesus. He lived a life that was confirming excellently to 2 Pet 1:4-11. He continued to live this life for 30 years, one day without fail.

Then his wife died suddenly and he lost his job. He could not get over it. In the course of trying to recover after experiencing his sudden misfortune, he became ‘stray’ and mixed with wrong company because it so happened that these people were there for him at that oppurtune moment. He eventually delved into sin and became non-believer.

Is this person saved? Thanks.

I would have to look at the quality of this person’ life. I would need more details how he got from believing to out right rejection. The reason is say this is that if a person truly is in Christ and growing that life they have in Christ will sustain them in periods like this. If not then i would question if they were truly in Christ to begin with and growing in that relationship with Him. Jesus Himself promised in Matthew 7:24-25 that if you build your house on a solid foundation then when trials come your house will not fall but stand. In the next 2 verses He describes those who heard but did not apply and their house fell when the storms came.

 

[jmcrae]

I would have to look at the quality of this person’ life. I would need more details how he got from believing to out right rejection. The reason is say this is that if a person truly is in Christ and growing that life they have in Christ will sustain them in periods like this. If not then i would question if they were truly in Christ to begin with and growing in that relationship with Him.

Look, you know, that story could describe one of the Bible study leaders in our college Bible study. He was on fire for the Lord, evangelizing all the time, back in those days. He was one of those who insisted that nobody can lose their faith who really has it - in fact, every time I read your stuff I’m reminded of him, back then.

Today, he is an atheist. Nobody, least of all him, could ever have predicted that.

Jesus Himself promised in Matthew 7:24-25 that if you build your house on a solid foundation then when trials come your house will not fall but stand. In the next 2 verses He describes those who heard but did not apply and their house fell when the storms came.

And in Matthew 16:18-19, He tells us who and what the Rock is.

 

[justasking4]

OK. I see that clearly. But there ARE people who say that the experience is absolutely requisite for being born again and DEFINES the condition of salvation. But where this breaks down is in their recognition that living a godless life testifies against them. So the answer for them is not that the person has fallen away but that he was never saved in the first place. The corollary to OSAS is the personal ASSURANCE of salvation based on the initial confession.

It’s just not reasonable. Nor is it scriptural, nor do most Christians believe in perfect assurance. This is a subset of the OSAS group and the OSAS group is also a minority.

I agree with a lot you say here. There are actually a couple of issues involved in this question. One is how does God save us and the other is how do we experience it. I think its possible for a person to be saved and not know it and for person who thinks they are saved but are really not. Both involve some kind of self delusion.

Do you think Christ intended His followers to have confidence in Him for salvation and to be at peace about it?

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;4369861]

Look, you know, that story could describe one of the Bible study leaders in our college Bible study. He was on fire for the Lord, evangelizing all the time, back in those days. He was one of those who insisted that nobody can lose their faith who really has it - in fact, every time I read your stuff I’m reminded of him, back then.

Today, he is an atheist. Nobody, least of all him, could ever have predicted that.

Did you ever have a chance to talk to him and find out what happened?

And in Matthew 16:18-19, He tells us who and what the Rock is.

I suspect we depend on 2 different rocks…

 

[jmcrae]

Did you ever have a chance to talk to him and find out what happened?

Yes, I am aware of what happened. It had nothing to do with him being a false professor, or thinking that he was a hypocrite to talk the Jesus talk while in his heart doubting it (he absolutely never doubted it, the whole time he was preaching it; he has told me that many times).

He acknowledges that his belief in Christ was absolutely sincere, at the time; he simply changed his mind for reasons that continue to make sense to him, even now.

 

[eucharisteo]

He is entering into the Christian life by means of the promise of his parents to raise him up in the Catholic faith. The stain of Original Sin is washed away in the Sacrament, so as to make the living of the Christian life possible for him. Ideally, the parents follow through on their promises, and the child is immersed in his Catholic faith from the very beginning of his life, and when he reaches his teen years, has a solid foundation - a solid rock, if you will - upon which to build his life.

I have never heard of anyone who was baptized as an infant say, “I wish I could have been allowed to give myself over to Satan and debauch myself with sin at an early age, so as to ensure a place for myself in Hell.”

Some people, misunderstanding the nature of infant baptism, wish that they could have been old enough to remember the pomp and circumstance of the ceremony - perhaps this is why we delay the other Sacraments of Initiation - Confirmation and First Holy Communion - so that the kids can have happy memories of being brought into the Church, and have a sense that they participated in some way in the decision-making.

When we had our 1 year old and 6 year old baptised in 2007 I was still skeptical about baptizing children that young. But after seeing God’s grace work in them immediatelyfollowing I wouldn’t have believe had I not seen it with my own eyes. It was very obvious that something amazing occurred. Our oldest boy was secretly baptized. My dad baptized him we suspect for good reasons. He seemed to lean more towards God than our 2 youngest. But after the 2 youngest baptisms they too leaned strongly towards God. They love to attend mass… One resists, but only because he’s a home body. He does rather well in mass. I teach him everything as the mass unfolds.

As far as accepting Jesus personally. That too is part of our faith. Only explained much differently than those who obide by that saying.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so no one may boast.”
Eph 2

“Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence 2 of things not seen.” Heb 11

“Faith without works is dead.” James 2

“work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” Phil 2

“This [Noah’s arc] prefigured baptism, which saves you now.” 1 Pet 3

“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.” Acts 2

“Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” Matt 28

 

[justasking4]

Yes, I am aware of what happened. It had nothing to do with him being a false professor, or thinking that he was a hypocrite to talk the Jesus talk while in his heart doubting it (he absolutely never doubted it, the whole time he was preaching it; he has told me that many times).

He acknowledges that his belief in Christ was absolutely sincere, at the time; he simply changed his mind for reasons that continue to make sense to him, even now.

It makes me wonder about these things. I suspect that many people do not nourish their faith and eventually lose it or it becomes diminished so far as to look like an unbeliever.

 

[jmcrae]

It makes me wonder about these things. I suspect that many people do not nourish their faith and eventually lose it or it becomes diminished so far as to look like an unbeliever.

Well, that would be the Catholic position - that one must nourish one’s faith, and not take it for granted.

 

[Reuben_J]

It makes me wonder about these things. I suspect that many people do not nourish their faith and eventually lose it or it becomes diminished so far as to look like an unbeliever.

I agree that this is the Catholic position. You can lose your salvation if you do not nourish it. We can never be one hundred percent sure that we are saved until the day we meet the Lord. Until then we should guard it by all means so that we may not lose it. Then what Paul said make sense – to run the race until finish.

There are many ways to ‘nourish’ our faith. The Catholic Church has full prescriptions for this; it is only for the faithfuls to make good use of them.

From your assessment on the example I gave you, it looks like you can never know for sure that you are saved. You are telling us you’d know that you’re saved until the last day too, because in between, anything can happen that could result in you losing your salvation.

Do you agree with me then that the theology of ‘once saved always saved’ is flawed and impractical? If you could not have known that you are saved in the first place, then you could not have known that you will be saved.

The grace of salvation is free; that is why it is grace, but we need to cooperate with this grace to ensure our salvation. Again scripture says, “… that those who believe may be saved”. It is understanding what entails in ‘believing’ that’s important. Like it is not just by saying “Lord, Lord, …” but how it means to you that saves you.

I can accept the saying “Accepting Jesus as Personal Lord and Savior” if it means that in order for Jesus to be my personal Lord and Savior, that I live exactly as if he is my Lord and Savior. Meaning – as my Lord, He is the number one in my life; and as my Savior, that He can save me from every battle I have in my life as long I have that faith that He is my One and only Lord and that I submit my life to him in complete obedience to his words and commandments.