Accepting...

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

To those that say belief is a choice, let me ask you:

Can you decide to honestly believe that your monitor is a cat?
Can you decide to honestly believe that Zeus is real?

Personally I can’t chose to believe either of those things because they don’t make sense to me. I can say the words but it wouldn’t be true, because my brain won’t let me believe in something that doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, I can choose actions which may possibly lead to a greater chance of feeling the above might be remotely possible (very unlikely that even that would happen), but the belief itself I can’t just will/choose.

For those that say that belief in God is a choice, can you therefore honestly chose to believe the above? If so, how? If not, then how can you say belief in God is a choice?

Maybe a rephrasing would get the point home. If you think that you can choose to believe in God, can you, a faithful Catholic, decide right now to not believe in God? Can you honestly say right here right now that you don’t believe in God, and not be lying?

If not, then how is belief a choice?

First if you believe or monitor is a cat you have more things to worry about than if it a choice or not. And yes you can decide that the Greek gods are real and that Zeus is the king of the gods. And yes I can decide that God is not real just as I choose to believe he is. There is not force to control what a person believes. I can force you at gun point if necessary tp go to church and observe the the ritual and cross yourself and kneel and stand at the right times. but I can not force hyou to believe any of it. It is a choice.

Here is another example when in school and in science class I could give the answers that they wanted on evolution and that man evolved from an ape, but I don’t believe it.

 

[Aleii]

ckempston, I agree that faith as a whole involves belief + actions that display trust + etc. What I’m saying is that I don’t see how the initial belief part is a choice. I can agree that actions that convey trust is a choice, and it is usually made upon the foundation of belief or experiences. I would be lying to myself if I said I believed in Zeus, as it makes no sense to me. I could do the motions but I’d be lying to myself if I said I believed.

First if you believe or monitor is a cat you have more things to worry about than if it a choice or not. And yes you can decide that the Greek gods are real and that Zeus is the king of the gods. And yes I can decide that God is not real just as I choose to believe he is. There is not force to control what a person believes. I can force you at gun point if necessary tp go to church and observe the the ritual and cross yourself and kneel and stand at the right times. but I can not force hyou to believe any of it. It is a choice.

Here is another example when in school and in science class I could give the answers that they wanted on evolution and that man evolved from an ape, but I don’t believe it.

I agree that you can chose to do any action and belief is separate from that. I would like to know the process of how you would justify to yourself that your monitor is a cat, enough so that you saying “My monitor is a cat” would be what you believe to be true and not just lying to yourself. Everything you know about monitors are that they aren’t cats, and everything that you know about Zeus is that it is fiction, so how can you personally say you can decide to truthfully believe in it?

How can you choose to say that something makes sense when everything you know says it doesn’t? How can you ‘choose’ to believe in something that you don’t, without simply lying to yourself?

I don’t see how belief is as a light switch that you can just decide to turn on/off.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

ckempston, I agree that faith as a whole involves belief + actions that display trust + etc. What I’m saying is that I don’t see how the initial belief part is a choice. I can agree that actions that convey trust is a choice, and it is usually made upon the foundation of belief or experiences. I would be lying to myself if I said I believed in Zeus, as it makes no sense to me. I could do the motions but I’d be lying to myself if I said I believed.

I agree that you can chose to do any action and belief is separate from that. I would like to know the process of how you would justify to yourself that your monitor is a cat, enough so that you saying “My monitor is a cat” would be what you believe to be true and not just lying to yourself. Everything you know about monitors are that they aren’t cats, and everything that you know about Zeus is that it is fiction, so how can you personally say you can decide to truthfully believe in it?

How can you choose to say that something makes sense when everything you know says it doesn’t? How can you ‘choose’ to believe in something that you don’t, without simply lying to yourself?

I don’t see how belief is as a light switch that you can just decide to turn on/off.

As I said belief that your monitor is a cat would to say it different show signs of a complete mental disorder. How ever if I say were to believe Zeus it would be easy to say that with the spread of Christianity belief and worship of the old gods of the empire became suppressed that I do not believe that the Christian God is the only god, but one of many that has deceived man into worship of him alone. That in reality all the old gods do exist and Zeus is the king of all the gods.

Of course I don’t believe it but I could choose to.

 

[Aleii]

As I said belief that your monitor is a cat would to say it different show signs of a complete mental disorder. How ever if I say were to believe Zeus it would be easy to say that with the spread of Christianity belief and worship of the old gods of the empire became suppressed that I do not believe that the Christian God is the only god, but one of many that has deceived man into worship of him alone. That in reality all the old gods do exist and Zeus is the king of all the gods.

Of course I don’t believe it but I could choose to.

Thanks for your reply but I’m sorry, I still don’t get it. You give an explanation about the monitor being a cat but everyone around you would tell you you don’t have a mental disorder, and you’d know it yourself so I don’t see how you could choose to believe that. About Zeus, you give an explanation but then go onto say that you don’t believe it, so I don’t see how you could convince yourself otherwise without lying to yourself. I guess we just have different thought processes about this, but for me personally, I have no ability to choose to believe something that makes no sense to me.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Thanks for your reply but I’m sorry, I still don’t get it. You give an explanation about the monitor being a cat but everyone around you would tell you you don’t have a mental disorder, and you’d know it yourself so I don’t see how you could choose to believe that. About Zeus, you give an explanation but then go onto say that you don’t believe it, so I don’t see how you could convince yourself otherwise without lying to yourself. I guess we just have different thought processes about this, but for me personally, I have no ability to choose to believe something that makes no sense to me.

I guess I should apologize as we must be talking on different planes of understanding and not able to convey what we mean to one another.

If I believe that my monitor is a cat how could those around my not believe that I have a mental disorder/ problem what ever you want to call it, unless those around me also thinks it a cat?
As for belief in Zeus my explanation is to show how one could believe in Zeus and then a statement that I personally don’t.

 

[ckempston]

ckempston, I agree that faith as a whole involves belief + actions that display trust + etc. What I’m saying is that I don’t see how the initial belief part is a choice. I can agree that actions that convey trust is a choice, and it is usually made upon the foundation of belief or experiences. I would be lying to myself if I said I believed in Zeus, as it makes no sense to me. I could do the motions but I’d be lying to myself if I said I believed.

Epistemology is an interesting field of study and questions about the nature knowledge are valid. All I can give you is my personal reasons for belief, and possibly some anecdotes, but, quite frankly, I’ve been where you are at, so I’m not going to hold my breath that you’ll find any of my answers convincing. What actually made me re-evaluate my skepticism was the realization that skepticism is as intellectually unsatisfying as skeptics make faith in God out to be.

I agree that you can chose to do any action and belief is separate from that. I would like to know the process of how you would justify to yourself that your monitor is a cat, enough so that you saying “My monitor is a cat” would be what you believe to be true and not just lying to yourself. Everything you know about monitors are that they aren’t cats, and everything that you know about Zeus is that it is fiction, so how can you personally say you can decide to truthfully believe in it?

I have no reason to believe my monitor is a cat. My senses tell me it is not a cat. People who I ask would tell me it is not a cat. Based on its properties, I can “prove” that it is not a cat.

How can you choose to say that something makes sense when everything you know says it doesn’t? How can you ‘choose’ to believe in something that you don’t, without simply lying to yourself?

Let’s move out of the realm of theorizing and into reality. What doesn’t make sense, exactly, about believing in something you can’t see? Have you ever seen an atom? Have you ever seen an emotion? These things escape our direct observation, but we believe they exist because in one case reliable people ensure us of it (that atoms exist) and we see the effects of emotions, even though you can’t point to an emotion and say, “there it is.” If someone has told you to believe in something contrary to what your senses tell you, then that person was not very effective or thoughtful in his argument.

I don’t see how belief is as a light switch that you can just decide to turn on/off.

Interesting example. Why do you expect a light to come on when you flick the switch?

 

[Aleii]

I have no reason to believe my monitor is a cat. My senses tell me it is not a cat. People who I ask would tell me it is not a cat. Based on its properties, I can “prove” that it is not a cat.

Right, even with attempting to rationalize it by saying that you are insane wouldn’t work because there’s no evidence you are insane and people around you would verify that you aren’t; you would know you aren’t actually insane and are only trying to think you are to attempt to rationalize something that makes no sense. Your brain stops you from being able to say “My monitor is a cat” and believing it, no matter what you do. We can’t choose to have honest belief in something that makes no sense such as 1+1=5 or monitor=cat or Zeus = real. Its like saying you have an incorrect truth. We can do actions which might help lead one to belief one day, but we can’t change what we think is true in an instant, with no support, even if we wanted to. Saying you’ll give me a million dollars to believe in Zeus is something I can’t accomplish even though I want to.

Let’s move out of the realm of theorizing and into reality. What doesn’t make sense, exactly, about believing in something you can’t see? Have you ever seen an atom? Have you ever seen an emotion? These things escape our direct observation, but we believe they exist because in one case reliable people ensure us of it (that atoms exist) and we see the effects of emotions, even though you can’t point to an emotion and say, “there it is.” If someone has told you to believe in something contrary to what your senses tell you, then that person was not very effective or thoughtful in his argument.

I’ve experienced emotions, I know about some of the brain chemistry that happens with emotions, I know I can decide to get an advanced degree in neuropsychology and create experiments with emotions if I chose to. Based upon what I know, it makes sense that emotions exist. Same with atoms. They make sense to me. I have the ability if so desired to go to school and become a scientist and work with atoms. I have the ability to test just about anything if I put the time and money into it. No one has the time/money to test everything, however, so we have to pick and choose what we utilize our finite resources for, and rely on sources that make sense to us, to fill in the gaps.

Interesting example. Why do you expect a light to come on when you flick the switch?

I know the basics of how a circuit works, and unless there is some damage/power failure, a properly done circuit should have no problem working. Cause-effect.

 

[ckempston]

Right, even with attempting to rationalize it by saying that you are insane wouldn’t work because there’s no evidence you are insane and people around you would verify that you aren’t; you would know you aren’t actually insane and are only trying to think you are to attempt to rationalize something that makes no sense. Your brain stops you from being able to say “My monitor is a cat” and believing it, no matter what you do. We can’t choose to have honest belief in something that makes no sense such as 1+1=5 or monitor=cat or Zeus = real. Its like saying you have an incorrect truth. We can do actions which might help lead one to belief one day, but we can’t change what we think is true in an instant, with no support, even if we wanted to. Saying you’ll give me a million dollars to believe in Zeus is something I can’t accomplish even though I want to.

I think we’ve established that you can’t force yourself to believe something in general. Were you were forced into church or whatever as a kid, grew up, and realized you didn’t personally believe it?

I’ve experienced emotions, I know about some of the brain chemistry that happens with emotions, I know I can decide to get an advanced degree in neuropsychology and create experiments with emotions if I chose to. Based upon what I know, it makes sense that emotions exist. Same with atoms. They make sense to me. I have the ability if so desired to go to school and become a scientist and work with atoms. I have the ability to test just about anything if I put the time and money into it. No one has the time/money to test everything, however, so we have to pick and choose what we utilize our finite resources for, and rely on sources that make sense to us, to fill in the gaps.

I’ve experienced God, as have many others. It makes sense to me that He exists. The fact that it makes sense to me doesn’t make it objectively true. It is either true that God exists, or it is not. You rely on sources to tell you things. You believe those sources based on some kind of evaluation of their reliability and credibility. This is the same way people come to a knowledge of God.

I know the basics of how a circuit works, and unless there is some damage/power failure, a properly done circuit should have no problem working. Cause-effect.

I would add personal experience before I said knowledge of electrical circuits, but OK. The point is that you don’t see the electricity, or the inner-workings of the light switch every time you flick it, but you know it will come on. You know it because of your prior experiences and your knowledge of electrical circuitry.

 

[OnlyJesus]

I agree with John who said:

reminds me of a verse

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Any good works that we do are not works that we did, it is God at work IN US. So we cannot take credit for anything we consider good that “we” did in our body.

Also I believe there are things that God considers “works” that we humans don’t think of as “works”. When we think of works we think of giving to the poor, caring for widows and children, giving money to the church etc.