Accident or Providence?

[underdog]

I told you the two are not in conflict, the burden of proof is on you to clarify how they are. They are not.
See below:

My understanding of God’s providence is apparently not yours.
Man is creation. Not creator.
God is able to do anything, in spite of what little he reveals he has done with man. Free will is most certainly not in conflict with Divine Providence. God will not force anyone to do anything. He can load them up with grace if he sees fit, he can do other things he sees fit with any person HE sees fit to do so with.
But, if a person resists his grace…

That’s fine notsmart if you are content with that understanding.

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice

9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief
30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness [4] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

 

[notsmart]

Nothing you posted to me even comes close to disproving my point, or proving yours.

You need to tell me what “Irrisistable grace” Is, because that is the problem, not free will. I reject as false doctrine Irresitstable grace!

 

[tGette]

Since logic is something God endows us with, please use logic to answer these questions:

How is people being destined to Hell merciful?

How can God show any traits of mercy if He has preordained everything from the beginning? All He would be doing is showboating and being boastful and prideful.

Jesus becoming man would not be an act of humility, it would be God showing off. It would be God coming to the world as Jesus and saying this: “I have died for your sins on the cross…sins which I made you do and I am only going to die for a select few because I feel like it.”

So God had his “elect” in mind before creation, then He died for the sins He made them commit and the only way they could have their sins atoned for is by believing in this one-time sacrifice for all sin, though He decided from the beginning who would choose to believe.

OK, I am confusing myself.

Please…using logic…

 

[notsmart]

Free will is basically believing we are not puppets on a string!
God could not truly love if he created us for mere amusement.

 

[fbl9]

okay for underdog where were we…ah yes i flipped my truck at 125.was ejected walked a mile to home.spent the next week in the hospital,was very mad cause i missed the Canada weekend party,(the doctor was supposed to release me on friday)…spent the summer weekends so drunk and stoned i couldn’t walk so i drove home.that was 15yrs ago.i came back to the fold 4.5yrs ago…
there are so many times in my life that i could have been wiped off the face of the earth i can’t even remember them all.and during this time i was the worst “christian” around.if i was taken i would have most likely said to God about time what took you so long to do it?i knew where i was going and i didn’t really care but i knew what i deserved for the way i lived…
none of the life saving events had any effect on my behaviour,i most likely just got wilder.so where was God’s providence in this?none of His protection meant much to me,and had no effect on where i am now in regards to my faith…unless you count me still being here…so if God wanted to keep me alive so i could repent and come back to the Church what does that say about where you are at now underdog.?

underdog please show me God’s providence in this?the real scary part of this testamony is i knew i was "protected"during this time in my life,i didn’t delibrately challenge God to protect me,but kept asking why do you let me continue this way let me be removed so as not to cause any one spiritual harm…

 

[underdog]

underdog please show me God’s providence in this?the real scary part of this testamony is i knew i was "protected"during this time in my life,i didn’t delibrately challenge God to protect me,but kept asking why do you let me continue this way let me be removed so as not to cause any one spiritual harm…

Your answer is found in Hebrews chapter 12. Are you familar with the account of Joseph in the OT, and Job too?

 

[underdog]

Since logic is something God endows us with, please use logic to answer these questions:

How is people being destined to Hell merciful?

How can God show any traits of mercy if He has preordained everything from the beginning? All He would be doing is showboating and being boastful and prideful.

Jesus becoming man would not be an act of humility, it would be God showing off. It would be God coming to the world as Jesus and saying this: “I have died for your sins on the cross…sins which I made you do and I am only going to die for a select few because I feel like it.”

So God had his “elect” in mind before creation, then He died for the sins He made them commit and the only way they could have their sins atoned for is by believing in this one-time sacrifice for all sin, though He decided from the beginning who would choose to believe.

OK, I am confusing myself.

Please…using logic…

Does our Trinue God save us or rescue us from our condemned condition? If He did not save all and has the power and ability to save all, God passed over many in His rescue mission to save sinners. If you believe that we are the cause of our salvation in any form, then you are rescuing yourself from your condemned condition. Do you see what I am saying? First of all, it is a command to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, regardless of our desire and ability to obey this command. Therefore, we break a command and sin when we refuse to believe in Christ. Christ could not have atoned for the sin of unbelief, because if He did, then all would go to Heaven.

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

tGette: How is people being destined to Hell merciful?

Zero the Hero: It is not merciful, but rather it is good that God would punish sinners.

tGette: How can God show any traits of mercy if He has preordained everything from the beginning? All He would be doing is showboating and being boastful and prideful.

Zero the Hero: God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Or in my case snow was sent this week. The feeling of the snow falling on me felt plesent. I enjoy a good Chicago winter.

tGette: Jesus becoming man would not be an act of humility, it would be God showing off. It would be God coming to the world as Jesus and saying this: “I have died for your sins on the cross…sins which I made you do and I am only going to die for a select few because I feel like it.”

Zero the Hero: You missunderstand reformed theology. God does not make us sin, but rather all of sin can be blamed on the devil and man. Adam represented us in the garden, and he plunged the whole human race into sin. God does not sin for us and did not play games in the garden.

 

[underdog]

What’s Reformed theology?

 

[notsmart]

Does our Trinue God save us or rescue us from our condemned condition? If He did not save all and has the power and ability to save all, God passed over many in His rescue mission to save sinners. If you believe that we are the cause of our salvation in any form, then you are rescuing yourself from your condemned condition. Do you see what I am saying? First of all, it is a command to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, regardless of our desire and ability to obey this command. Therefore, we break a command and sin when we refuse to believe in Christ. Christ could not have atoned for the sin of unbelief, because if He did, then all would go to Heaven.

All that will be saved will be so through Christ. we may not know how. So, I do not see what you are saying. Not all may accept this invitation. Some may resist it.
But no one is under “irresistable grace”

 

[Zero_the_Hero]

underdog: What’s Reformed theology?

Zero the Hero: I thought you were reformed. Reformed theology is summerized in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

[tGette]

Does our Trinue God save us or rescue us from our condemned condition? If He did not save all and has the power and ability to save all, God passed over many in His rescue mission to save sinners. If you believe that we are the cause of our salvation in any form, then you are rescuing yourself from your condemned condition. Do you see what I am saying? First of all, it is a command to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, regardless of our desire and ability to obey this command. Therefore, we break a command and sin when we refuse to believe in Christ. Christ could not have atoned for the sin of unbelief, because if He did, then all would go to Heaven.

This does not address my post.

 

[underdog]

underdog: What’s Reformed theology?

Zero the Hero: I thought you were reformed. Reformed theology is summerized in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Thanks for sharing! Someone said that I was this “Reformed” person who was banned from this site. I’m just good old Underdog with no creeds but Christ. You are just doing fine with your postings, keep up the good work Zero the Hero!

 

[fbl9]

Your answer is found in Hebrews chapter 12. Are you familar with the account of Joseph in the OT, and Job too?

so basically you are saying that i fbl9 am one of His children…now note this i became His adopted son when i was baptised as an infant,i am locked securely in His church i shall not be moved and i have set my face like flint against those who go against me.no one can remove me from His church…now underdog it your turn to be able to say those words with honesty,

 

[tGette]

tGette: How is people being destined to Hell merciful?

Zero the Hero: It is not merciful, but rather it is good that God would punish sinners.

Yes…agreed…but if He decided beforehand who would be punished and would not…how does that make sense? Predestining someone to Hell is like punishing someone before they ever did anything. How is that just and merciful?

tGette: How can God show any traits of mercy if He has preordained everything from the beginning? All He would be doing is showboating and being boastful and prideful.

Zero the Hero: God sends rain on the just and the unjust. Or in my case snow was sent this week. The feeling of the snow falling on me felt plesent. I enjoy a good Chicago winter.

If God, from the beginning decided who the just and the unjust would be how does it make it the persons fault whether they were just or not? Did God choose certain people to be unjust…just so He could punish them?

tGette: Jesus becoming man would not be an act of humility, it would be God showing off. It would be God coming to the world as Jesus and saying this: “I have died for your sins on the cross…sins which I made you do and I am only going to die for a select few because I feel like it.”

Zero the Hero: You missunderstand reformed theology. God does not make us sin, but rather all of sin can be blamed on the devil and man. Adam represented us in the garden, and he plunged the whole human race into sin. God does not sin for us and did not play games in the garden.

It is not that I misunderstand…it is that I do not understand it…logically. You do believe in Double Predestination, right? If you do, well, then that means God is responsible for sin. Please show me how belief in Double Predestination can account for freewill.

 

[underdog]

so basically you are saying that i fbl9 am one of His children…now note this i became His adopted son when i was baptised as an infant,i am locked securely in His church i shall not be moved and i have set my face like flint against those who go against me.no one can remove me from His church…now underdog it your turn to be able to say those words with honesty,

I believe God saves us, and not by our membership with a particular church. To grow in faith in God, we need to see God as being completly sovereign, and through divine providence… He is making all that He ordained come to pass. Nothing is impossible with God, and all His promises are all yes in Christ. What does God say about the sparrow?

Have No Fear - Matthew 10

26 “So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. [6] 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? [7] And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven

 

[notsmart]

I believe God saves us, and not by our membership with a particular church. To grow in faith in God, we need to see God as being completly sovereign, and through divine providence… He is making all that He ordained come to pass. Nothing is impossible with God, and all His promises are all yes in Christ. What does God say about the sparrow?

If this is your definition of Divine Providence then you are wasting your time with Catholics. They deny none of the above.

Do you have me on ignore or can’t you answer my posts to you about irresitable grace the false doctrine?

 

[underdog]

If this is your definition of Divine Providence then you are wasting your time with Catholics. They deny none of the above.

Do you have me on ignore or can’t you answer my posts to you about irresitable grace the false doctrine?

What do you mean by irresible grace?

 

[notsmart]

What do you mean by irresible grace?

Grace you can not resist.

 

[underdog]

Grace you can not resist.

Let’s see if God can answer your question through the Apostle Paul.

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault?** For who can resist his will?” **20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Rom 9