Accompanying a fallen-away Catholic to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy

[DL82]

Someone I know very well has fallen away from the Catholic Church, is very angry with the Church over its stance on birth control, over the judgmental attitudes of people in her parish, and over past abuse by a priest. I can see how she has been hurt so badly that going to Mass in a Latin Rite Catholic Church would not be possible or beneficial right now. Recently, she has begun to think about exploring Christian spirituality again, but in a different church. The Orthodox Church appeals, partly because it has a lot of similarities, but with married priests and (limited) acceptance of birth control.

From my perspective, I would like to encourage this exploration, because it seems better than a resentful atheism, but as a Catholic I am worried that I would be complicit in helping someone to apostasize from the Church. At the same time, if you are going to go somewhere other than the Catholic Church, I don’t think you can do better than the Orthodox Church - they have valid sacraments, share 99%(or more) of the same beliefs, have beautiful liturgy, great theological writings, a serious commitment to living the faith, and it would be possible to share 99% of our prayer life too.

I also know quite a bit about Eastern Christianity, having considered Orthodoxy before my conversion to the Catholic Church, and still having an attachment to Eastern spirituality through the reading of Eastern fathers, Icons and the Jesus Prayer. My preference would be for us both to find a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy, and see if this would be sufficiently different not to bring up bad memories, while staying in communion with Rome, but we don’t live close to one.

Should I offer to accompany my friend to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and encourage further exploration of the Orthodox faith?

 

[ConstantineTG]

If they’ve already left the Church, how is this apostatizing?

 

[Elijahmaria]

This one is a very difficult situation. My sister in Georgia, for example, moved from the Latin rite to a southern Baptist congregation. The only thing I ever said to her was that it was morally incumbent upon her to raise her daughter in the Catholic Church. She has ignored me though I say it periodically in person and in print. There is only so much one can do when an intellect and soul shuts out the messages of the Catholic Church. My sisters understanding of the faith, I could say clearly, was poor in the first place, and she really had no connection or attachment to the sacraments. My daughter in Texas has done the same thing. She too had no real spiritual life or attachment to the sacraments. Now she seems to be much more active and attached to Scripture and Jesus. I leave these two to prayer rather than pushing but I make it clear that the Baptist church has not the fullness of the faith, and I keep myself and my discussions of my own faith separated by the things that I say to them. I make them have to look, through my own praxis, at someone who is deeply attached to a spiritual life and the sacraments. I am more content than they are and they see that too.

On the other hand my son is baptised in the Latin rite and he and I attended Latin rite liturgies, eastern Catholic liturgies, and several years worth of Orthodox liturgies. He has a deeper immersion in Orthodoxy than in either the Latin rite, or eastern Catholic rites and rituals. He is a troubled soul who does not attend often but when he turns to a parish, he turns first to an Orthodox parish to attend. I actively encourage that because it makes sense given his history. He is much more aware of what is going on in terms of the schism, and has adopted my own attitude toward both west and east. He never would speak out against the Catholic Church, and he believes Catholic teaching at least as much as he believes Orthodox teaching.

Because he is aware of the significance of sacraments and an ascetic life of prayer, sacrifice and alms giving, I don’t worry that he will become lost.

I don’t think I could say the same for your friend or my sister or my daughter. I would not accompany her.

Someone I know very well has fallen away from the Catholic Church, is very angry with the Church over its stance on birth control, over the judgmental attitudes of people in her parish, and over past abuse by a priest. I can see how she has been hurt so badly that going to Mass in a Latin Rite Catholic Church would not be possible or beneficial right now. Recently, she has begun to think about exploring Christian spirituality again, but in a different church. The Orthodox Church appeals, partly because it has a lot of similarities, but with married priests and (limited) acceptance of birth control.

From my perspective, I would like to encourage this exploration, because it seems better than a resentful atheism, but as a Catholic I am worried that I would be complicit in helping someone to apostasize from the Church. At the same time, if you are going to go somewhere other than the Catholic Church, I don’t think you can do better than the Orthodox Church - they have valid sacraments, share 99%(or more) of the same beliefs, have beautiful liturgy, great theological writings, a serious commitment to living the faith, and it would be possible to share 99% of our prayer life too.

I also know quite a bit about Eastern Christianity, having considered Orthodoxy before my conversion to the Catholic Church, and still having an attachment to Eastern spirituality through the reading of Eastern fathers, Icons and the Jesus Prayer. My preference would be for us both to find a Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy, and see if this would be sufficiently different not to bring up bad memories, while staying in communion with Rome, but we don’t live close to one.

Should I offer to accompany my friend to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy and encourage further exploration of the Orthodox faith?

 

[L_piperatus]

I would not accompany them unless I discussed this with my parish priest and got his approval. The fact is, we are not free to engage in this sort of ecumenic activity on our own, without our Church’s approval, and my best guess is that obtaining such approval starts with you talking to your parish priest.

 

[AleksOD]

As an Orthodox myself, I cannot object, especially when the only valid choice is between Orthodoxy and atheism. Like you said, we have many things in common, and maybe by immersing herself into Orthodoxy, this could be a springboard for her to come back to Catholicism by studying Church history, ancient Faith, and participating in valid (from RCC point of view) Sacraments. If she stays within the Orthodox Faith, then at least you should stop worrying for her soul, since Orthodoxy has a lot to offer for spiritual sustenance rooted in ancient Christianity.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would not accompany them unless I discussed this with my parish priest and got his approval. The fact is, we are not free to engage in this sort of ecumenic activity on our own, without our Church’s approval, and my best guess is that obtaining such approval starts with you talking to your parish priest.

How is this ecumenism? This is leading a lost soul back to Christ.

 

[BusterMartin]

I know in my life if I know someone who has fallen away from Catholicism, I would pray that they either return to the Catholic faith, or find the faith of Orthodoxy. That way, as has been mentioned, one would find valid sacraments. Truly, if one falls from Catholicism and desires not to return, Orthodoxy is an awesome alternative.

 

[Hesychios]

I helped my daughter find Christ in the Roman Catholic church. I encouraged her, gave her my Bible (NAB) and although I did not accompany her to Mass I did offer and encouraged her in every way.

This past year she got married in the RC and on my daughter’s invitation I led the Prayer of the Faithful, including the prayer for the Pope. I met her priest (a very nice young man) and her deacon.

The rest is up to her. Of course, I pray for all of my children.

When I was a young man I was told ‘any move in the right direction is a good move’ and that is how I see it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I helped my daughter find Christ in the Roman Catholic church. I encouraged her, gave her my Bible (NAB) and although I did not accompany her to Mass I did offer and encouraged her in every way.

This past year she got married in the RC and on my daughter’s invitation I led the Prayer of the Faithful, including the prayer for the Pope. I met her priest (a very nice young man) and her deacon.

The rest is up to her. Of course, I pray for all of my children.

When I was a young man I was told ‘any move in the right direction is a good move’ and that is how I see it.

 

[5Loaves]

DL82 Your friend is very blest to have you as a friend. As a Catholic you are always free to go to Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church. Many of us do just that from time to time. I’m sure the Holy Spirit is working though you as you show such tender compassion for her. May her faith be restored.

 

[L_piperatus]

How is this ecumenism? This is leading a lost soul back to Christ.

You may want to call this something else than ecumenism, but rather than argue about whether that would be ecumenism or not, I would emphasize that we are not free, as Catholics, to participate in non-Catholic Churches’ services, unless we obtain our own Catholic Church’s approval to do that.

As a Catholic you are always free to go to Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox Church. .

Actually to the best of my knowledge, this is incorrect. We are not free to simply walk in to a non-Catholic Church and participate in their services. Joint activities with other Churches can only be undertaken with the Catholic Church’s approval. That means, DL82 needs to talk to his parish priest, who will evaluate whether DL82 himself is not in danger of being led away from the truth of the Catholic Church and into error by participating in a non-Catholic Church’s activities, and the parish priest will act accordingly (after, possibly, consultation with his bishop) to allow or forbid DL82 from participating in the EO Church’s activities.

There’s a Vatican document out there that says words to this effect. The Catholic Church is cautious because there’s a danger that the Catholic faithful will be exposed to errors and ultimately led away from the Catholic Church. Hence, participation in other Churches’ activities needs to be approved by the representatives of the Catholic Church (Bishop, Priest).

The intent of DL82 is commendable, but there is the very real danger of the EOC exposing DL82 to errors and possibly leading him away from the truth of the CC.

Btw, the Russian EOC (formerly ROCOR) has the same approach - the Russian EO faithful are not allowed to participate in non-Orthodox Churches’ services.

 

[Elijahmaria]

There’s a Vatican document out there that says words to this effect. The Catholic Church is cautious because there’s a danger that the Catholic faithful will be exposed to errors and ultimately led away from the Catholic Church. Hence, participation in other Churches’ activities needs to be approved by the representatives of the Catholic Church (Bishop, Priest).

And the application here to eastern Catholics?

 

[L_piperatus]

And the application here to eastern Catholics?

Well, I assume the application is the same whether one is an Eastern or Western (Roman) Catholic: that the layperson needs to consult his priest, who is in charge (together with the Bishop) of deciding whether it is safe for the Catholic to participate in the activities of the particular non-Catholic Church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You may want to call this something else than ecumenism, but rather than argue about whether that would be ecumenism or not, I would emphasize that we are not free, as Catholics, to participate in non-Catholic Churches’ services, unless we obtain our own Catholic Church’s approval to do that.

Here’s your approval then:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

 

[5Loaves]

I would emphasize that we are not free, as Catholics, to participate in non-Catholic Churches’ services, unless we obtain our own Catholic Church’s approval to do that.

CCEO Canon 670 §1. For a just cause Catholics can attend the liturgical worship of other Christians and take part in the same, observing those things which, by reason of the degree of communion with the Catholic Church, are established by the eparchial bishop or by a superior authority.

CIC Canon 844 §2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid

The canon for the Latin Church, CIC Canon 844 §2, addresses reception of the sacraments in an Orthodox Church. Reception of sacrament is not raised by OP nor would I encourage reception.

Even though that CIC canon is looking at reception of sacraments I think the phrase “danger of … indifferentism” is worth borrowing. I hear no indifferentism in the consideration OP brought in this thread.

I certainly cannot speak for other ECs but in my own experience we ECs may be the least likely to bring any sense of indifferentism when we enter either an Orthodox Church or Latin Church. No matter how welcoming either group is, and I am warmly welcomed by both on a regular basis I keenly wish for the Body of Christ to be united.

Clergy of my EC parish are not infrequently found in Vespers in an Orthdox Church, or in the case of the ROCOR Cathedral a few blocks from us, simply venerating the relics of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco present in the temple there.

Indifferentism can go both ways and I would never want to encourage Orthodox visitors to be indifferent to the reality of our separation. Last Sunday we had two Orthodox at DL in my parish. I was asked by one whether she could receive Eucharist and I told her that if she was properly disposed to receive in her own Church then she can receive in a Catholic Church from the Catholic point of view, but that from the Orthodox perspective, that would be up to her priest whether she could receive with us. The other Orthodox is a regular communicant with us.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Here’s your approval then:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_02051995_orientale-lumen_en.html

While he was most respectful of our Orthodox brethren, I do believe the Holy Father was referring to the Eastern Churches which are part of the Universal Catholic Church in this text when suggesting we experience both the Eastern and Western traditions.

We are not free to fulfill our obligations as Catholics outside the Catholic Church. I do go to Matins & Vespers at a local Russian Orthodox monastery quite frequently, and feel more enriched as an Eastern Christian from the experience, but that does not substitute for my obligations as a Catholic.

But back to the point, as a true friend has asked for advice on how to best counsel a potentially lost soul …

My best, most charitable advice is to help your friend explore both alternatives: Eastern Rite Catholicism and Orthodoxy. While we as Catholics are morally obliged to urge the former, as has been said here, the latter certainly is an option with much merit. We have more in common than that which separates us. I thank our brethen Orthodox friends who have posted here with much charity and concern first and foremost for the distressed soul.

On a personal note, if you [DL82] are considering recommending a Byzantine Ruthenian Rite church, please feel free to write me privately for direct advice. I know many of the priests personally, and could recommend someone to you for more learned counseling. We do have a fair number of bi-ritual priests (ordained Latin Rite, practicing Latin and Byzantine Rite) in our Eparchy. There are also a few who were raised in the Latin Rite but ordained in the Byzantine Ruthenian Church. My current priest, for example, is a well educated Jesuit son of Irish Catholic parents (his Gaelic is as good as his Old Church Slavonic). These priests may be in a unique position to provide good counsel in this particular instance.

In our tradition, we first celebrate Christ’s birth by prayerfully declaring that “God is with us”! Let us all pray that the newborn Savior touches the heart of this distressed soul during this blessed season!

 

[L_piperatus]

The canon for the Latin Church, CIC Canon 844 §2, addresses reception of the sacraments in an Orthodox Church. Reception of sacrament is not raised by OP nor would I encourage reception.

Even though that CIC canon is looking at reception of sacraments I think the phrase “danger of … indifferentism” is worth borrowing. I hear no indifferentism in the consideration OP brought in this thread.

I certainly cannot speak for other ECs but in my own experience we ECs may be the least likely to bring any sense of indifferentism when we enter either an Orthodox Church or Latin Church. No matter how welcoming either group is, and I am warmly welcomed by both on a regular basis I keenly wish for the Body of Christ to be united.

Clergy of my EC parish are not infrequently found in Vespers in an Orthdox Church, or in the case of the ROCOR Cathedral a few blocks from us, simply venerating the relics of Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco present in the temple there.

Indifferentism can go both ways and I would never want to encourage Orthodox visitors to be indifferent to the reality of our separation. Last Sunday we had two Orthodox at DL in my parish. I was asked by one whether she could receive Eucharist and I told her that if she was properly disposed to receive in her own Church then she can receive in a Catholic Church from the Catholic point of view, but that from the Orthodox perspective, that would be up to her priest whether she could receive with us. The other Orthodox is a regular communicant with us.

DL82 may not be in any danger of falling into error or indifferentism by visiting the DL at an EOC, but what must still be emphasized is this: this is not his call to make, and it is not our call to make here at CAF. This is something he should discuss with his Catholic priest, because it’s the job of the Church, through its representatives the Bishops and the Priests, to give or withhold approval for a Catholic layperson to participate in the life of a non-Catholic Church.

 

[mick321]

Short story. I’m cradle RC. I attend daily Mass and privately pray the day hours of the Monastic Office. Last year, I became interested in EC liturgies and attended a number of Melkite Catholic services.

Earlier this year, I visited an Antiochian Orthodox parish. I met the pastor, identified myself as RC and asked if I could attend Sunday liturgy. After explaining that the reception of Sacraments was limited to those of the Orthodox Faith, he extended an open invitation to attend Divine Liturgy at his parish. I have attended on a number of occasions.

Several weeks ago, the Orthodox parish was having the consecration ceremony of their new parish church. This is a major deal. So I attend my normal daily Mass and hustled over to the consecration. Two Orthodox bishops and dozens of priests were involved in the ceremony and Liturgy that followed.

The nave of the new church was packed, standing-room-only. In the crowd, I noticed several Catholic priests in clerical attire, including the one who had offered the Mass I had just attended. He later told me that the Orthodox pastor was a personal friend and he has been to a number of Orthodox liturgies, there and elsewhere.

I never asked for his permission to attend an Orthodox liturgy, nor did he ask for mine.

 

[ByzCath08]

Short story. I’m cradle RC. I attend daily Mass and privately pray the day hours of the Monastic Office. Last year, I became interested in EC liturgies and attended a number of Melkite Catholic services.

Earlier this year, I visited an Antiochian Orthodox parish. I met the pastor, identified myself as RC and asked if I could attend Sunday liturgy. After explaining that the reception of Sacraments was limited to those of the Orthodox Faith, he extended an open invitation to attend Divine Liturgy at his parish. I have attended on a number of occasions.

Several weeks ago, the Orthodox parish was having the consecration ceremony of their new parish church. This is a major deal. So I attend my normal daily Mass and hustled over to the consecration. Two Orthodox bishops and dozens of priests were involved in the ceremony and Liturgy that followed.

The nave of the new church was packed, standing-room-only. In the crowd, I noticed several Catholic priests in clerical attire, including the one who had offered the Mass I had just attended. He later told me that the Orthodox pastor was a personal friend and he has been to a number of Orthodox liturgies, there and elsewhere.

I never asked for his permission to attend an Orthodox liturgy, nor did he ask for mine.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Short story. I’m cradle RC. I attend daily Mass and privately pray the day hours of the Monastic Office. Last year, I became interested in EC liturgies and attended a number of Melkite Catholic services.

Earlier this year, I visited an Antiochian Orthodox parish. I met the pastor, identified myself as RC and asked if I could attend Sunday liturgy. After explaining that the reception of Sacraments was limited to those of the Orthodox Faith, he extended an open invitation to attend Divine Liturgy at his parish. I have attended on a number of occasions.

Several weeks ago, the Orthodox parish was having the consecration ceremony of their new parish church. This is a major deal. So I attend my normal daily Mass and hustled over to the consecration. Two Orthodox bishops and dozens of priests were involved in the ceremony and Liturgy that followed.

The nave of the new church was packed, standing-room-only. In the crowd, I noticed several Catholic priests in clerical attire, including the one who had offered the Mass I had just attended. He later told me that the Orthodox pastor was a personal friend and he has been to a number of Orthodox liturgies, there and elsewhere.

I never asked for his permission to attend an Orthodox liturgy, nor did he ask for mine.

mick:

Thanks so much for this post, and I do think you picked up on something important, warranting clarification.

We are not forbidden as Catholics to enter an Orthodox church or attend Orthodox services. Have you ever gone to a wedding at a non-Catholic church? On that note, I’ll go so far as to mention that I was married in my wife’s Methodist church after receiving a proper dispensation from my Bishop. Indeed, this very day, I attended a funeral Divine Liturgy for a deceased Byzantine Catholic bishop, that was respectfully attended by one Orthodox hierarch and several Orthodox clergy members. So I don’t think the ceilings will cave in if …

That said, Canon Law (and the supplemental Code of Canons for the Eastern Churches) are speaking to fulfillment of our obligations to attend Mass / Divine Liturgy on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, and boundaries on the reception of Sacraments. The Canons provide that we may, with proper permission, fulfill these obligations in a non-Catholic church, but this is reserved for extraordinary circumstances where it is impossible to otherwise fulfill those obligations in a Catholic church or from an ordained Catholic minister (as an extreme example, there is no objection to receiving last rites from a non-Catholic military chaplain if mortally wounded in combat and death is imminent).

We are indeed obligated as Catholics to relate in a Christ-like manner to all God’s children. As such, we are certainly not forbidden from witnessing the expression of these other Christian traditions, but attending Sunday worship in a non-Catholic church will not fulfill your obligation to attend Sunday Mass / Divine Liturgy. And if you were invited to participate in a Eucharistic Service while attending such services, it would not be considered a Sacramental reception of the Holy Eucharist.

As far as I can tell from your post, you did everything right. Your witness of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy was supplemental to your faithful participation in the Mass of your Rite, in fulfillment of your canonical obligations.