Accompanying a fallen-away Catholic to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy

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ByzCathCantor said:
While he was most respectful of our Orthodox brethren, I do believe the Holy Father was referring to the Eastern Churches which are part of the Universal Catholic Church in this text when suggesting we experience both the Eastern and Western traditions.
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He made it clear that the bearers of tradition are the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. He didn’t say where a Roman Catholic should experience and learn about the Eastern traditions, just that they should learn about it. Given that the Blessed Pope said that the traditions are bore by both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox, then one can choose and pick.
ByzCathCantor said:
We are not free to fulfill our obligations as Catholics outside the Catholic Church. I do go to Matins & Vespers at a local Russian Orthodox monastery quite frequently, and feel more enriched as an Eastern Christian from the experience, but that does not substitute for my obligations as a Catholic.
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The issue of this thread is not about fulfilling one’s “Sunday Obligation”, but going with someone who is inquiring into Orthodoxy.
 
I’ll pray for your friend! I also left the Catholic Church many years back, and I also had big issues with many of these same things–feeling that people were judgmental, anger at the priest abuse scandal…although I thankfully had no direct contact with it…and also birth control (although I came around on this…I became staunchly pro-life, and took issue with the hormonal forms of birth control because they are abortion-causing, and in time, God showed me why ALL contraception is wrong).

As for going with your friend to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy…I’d say ask a good, trustworthy Catholic priest if he thinks its a wise move. On the one hand, you don’t want to engender indifference, and you need to make sure it’s ok for you to visit in the first place…but on the other hand, you would be putting your friend in Christ’s Eucharistic presence for 1.5-3 hours! The Orthodox, like us Catholics, reserve the Eucharist in a tabernacle, so Jesus would literally be right there the whole time! Of course, your friend couldn’t receive Communion, but just being there with Him is so powerful.
 
ConstantineTG said:
The issue of this thread is not about fulfilling one’s “Sunday Obligation”, but going with someone who is inquiring into Orthodoxy.
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As you read through the thread, some statements were made inferring that we were canonically forbidden from entering a non-Catholic church with permission of clergy and/or bishop. I don’t think I was alone in picking up on that, and I was only trying to clarify that point.

But perhaps I misread …

… and perhaps you are better informed.

I am most sympathetic to the situation as shared by DL82, and endeavored to offer Christianly spirited advice in an earlier post.
 
ConstantineTG said:
He made it clear that the bearers of tradition are the Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. He didn’t say where a Roman Catholic should experience and learn about the Eastern traditions, just that they should learn about it. Given that the Blessed Pope said that the traditions are bore by both Eastern Catholics and Orthodox, then one can choose and pick.
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Pick and choose between what?
 
ByzCathCantor said:
As you read through the thread, some statements were made inferring that we were canonically forbidden from entering a non-Catholic church with permission of clergy and/or bishop. I don’t think I was alone in picking up on that, and I was only trying to clarify that point.
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There is no such thing. We are not canonically forbidden from entering a non-Catholic place of worship. We are forbidden from active participation, such as receiving Sacraments or some ceremony resembling Sacraments (such as symbolic “Communion” done in many Protestant communities) but we can attend, we can even pray with them. Its not uncommon for Eastern Catholics to worship in Orthodox services, especially Vespers and Matins which usually are not available in Eastern Catholic parishes.
 
ConstantineTG said:
There is no such thing. We are not canonically forbidden from entering a non-Catholic place of worship. We are forbidden from active participation, such as receiving Sacraments or some ceremony resembling Sacraments (such as symbolic “Communion” done in many Protestant communities) but we can attend, we can even pray with them. Its not uncommon for Eastern Catholics to worship in Orthodox services, especially Vespers and Matins which usually are not available in Eastern Catholic parishes.
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I’m fortunate that I have access to both Melkite-Catholic and Antiochian-Orthodox parishes. Both celebrate the office of Orthros before Sunday Divine Liturgy. I can follow either service in my Melkite Horologion.
 
ConstantineTG said:
There is no such thing. We are not canonically forbidden from entering a non-Catholic place of worship. We are forbidden from active participation, such as receiving Sacraments or some ceremony resembling Sacraments (such as symbolic “Communion” done in many Protestant communities) but we can attend, we can even pray with them. Its not uncommon for Eastern Catholics to worship in Orthodox services, especially Vespers and Matins which usually are not available in Eastern Catholic parishes.
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Inhale. Exhale. 🙂 I think you’re preaching to the choir here. ByzCathCantor said nothing about us being forbidden to enter non-Catholic places of worship. etc. He encouraged OP to “help your friend explore both alternatives: Eastern Rite Catholicism and Orthodoxy” and said he himself goes to Matins & Vespers at a local Russian Orthodox monastery quite frequently. 🙂
 
(all red emphases in quotes below are mine)

Folks, please check out posts #1 and #77 in this thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=229138

Here’s post #1 from the above thread:

Fr Serpa wrote:

"Hi,

In the first place a Catholic has no business attending Protestant church services even occasionally. To participate in a heretical worship service and especially a communion service can be sinful for a Catholic because such an act is an affirmation of what we believe to be untrue. To attend an ecumenical service or a wedding or baptism is allowed, but Catholics are not allowed to attend such churches for the main reason of worship. Now if there are no Catholic churches in the vicinity on a Sunday, Catholics are allowed to participate in the Liturgy of Churches whose clergy are validly ordained such as the Eastern Orthodox Churches—including the reception of the Eucharist. Although we consider them to be in schism (not in union with the Pope) with the Catholic Church, such Churches are not heretical and share our basic beliefs.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P."

Can anyone point me to some (recent) source on this. I know Catholics shouldn’t receive communion at non-Catholic Churches, but I was under the impression that attendance is allowed.

I have read through the Principles and Norms on Ecumenism before, but it strains my eyes to read large portions of text online (at times I can barely manage these posts).

Can anyone point me to anything that substantiates (or refutes) Fr. Serpa’s claim?

Here’s post #77:

Some info on this from the Second Vatican Council itself–it seems it is acceptable in special circumstances for the purpose of promoting unity, but you shouldn’t be indiscriminately worshipping at non-Catholic services:

Quote:
26. Common participation in worship (communicatio in sacris) which harms the unity of the Church or involves formal acceptance of error or the danger of aberration in the faith, of scandal and indifferentism, is forbidden by divine law.(32)

vatican.va/archive/hist_c…siarum_en.html

Quote:
In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers “for unity,” and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. Such prayers in common are certainly an effective means of obtaining the grace of unity, and they are a true expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to their separated brethren. “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”.(33)

Yet worship in common (communicatio in sacris) is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity. There are two main principles governing the practice of such common worship: first, the bearing witness to the unity of the Church, and second, the sharing in the means of grace. Witness to the unity of the Church very generally forbids common worship to Christians, but the grace to be had from it sometimes commends this practice. The course to be adopted, with due regard to all the circumstances of time, place, and persons, is to be decided by local episcopal authority, unless otherwise provided for by the Bishops’ Conference according to its statutes, or by the Holy See.

vatican.va/archive/hist_c…gratio_en.html

Quote 1 above is from vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html ; quote 2 is from vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html .
 
Now, let’s see a longer quote from the first link ( vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html ) - paragraphs 26-29:

DECREE ON THE CATHOLIC CHURCHES
OF THE EASTERN RITE
ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
  1. Common participation in worship (communicatio in sacris) which harms the unity of the Church or involves formal acceptance of error or the danger of aberration in the faith, of scandal and indifferentism, is forbidden by divine law.(32) On the other hand, pastoral experience shows clearly that, as regards our Eastern brethren, there should be taken into consideration the different cases of individuals, where neither the unity of the Church is hurt nor are verified the dangers that must be avoided, but where the needs of the salvation of souls and their spiritual good are impelling motives. For that reason the Catholic Church has always adopted and now adopts rather a mild policy, offering to all the means of salvation and an example of charity among Christians, through participation in the sacraments and in other sacred functions and things. With this in mind, “lest because of the harshness of our judgment we be an obstacle to those seeking salvation” (31) and in order more and more to promote union with the Eastern Churches separated from us, the Sacred Council lays down the following policy.
  2. Without prejudice to the principles noted earlier, Eastern Christians who are in fact separated in good faith from the Catholic Church, if they ask of their own accord and have the right dispositions, may be admitted to the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible.(33)
  3. Further, given the same principles, common participation by Catholics with their Eastern separated brethren in sacred functions, things and places is allowed for a just cause.(34)
  4. This conciliatory policy with regard to “communicatio in sacris” (participation in things sacred) with the brethren of the separated Eastern Churches is put into the care and control of the local hierarchs, in order that, by combined counsel among themselves and, if need be, after consultation also with the hierarchs of the separated churches, they may by timely and effective regulations and norms direct the relations among Christians.
My conclusion is this: talk to your priest about participating in DL at an EO Church.
 
This Canon, previously cited by 5Loaves

CCEO Canon 670 §1. For a just cause Catholics can attend the liturgical worship of other Christians and take part in the same, observing those things which, by reason of the degree of communion with the Catholic Church, are established by the eparchial bishop or by a superior authority.

also indicates that the eparchial bishop or superior authority is in charge of directing the activities of lay Catholics in case of joint liturgical worship. The Canon, especially together with the Vatican documents quoted above, seems to indicate to me that we as lay Catholics are not free to simply go wherever we want and do whatever we want to do. It is a matter of prudence and obedience that we talk to our pastors (priest, bishop) and obtain their approval to attend the services of non-Catholic Churches.
 
L-piperatus

How sad 😦 Here we have a good RC Member who is trying to bring a fallen away Catholic back to worship God . He is aware of what drove his friend away and sensibly realises that at present he has no chance of getting him through the doors of an RC Church.

He does think that taking him to an Orthodox Church ~may~ work - as it will expose him to liturgical Worship of God again . Once he the fallen away friend ] is more relaxed he may well try and tempt him back to catholicism.

And all you can do is cite Canons and tell him that he’s wrong to try and re-evangalise his friend since it ~may~ involve a non Catholic , but Apostolic Church , this is a truly wonderful way to win friends and spread the Love of Christ.
 
The_Idiot said:
L-piperatus

How sad 😦 Here we have a good RC Member who is trying to bring a fallen away Catholic back to worship God . He is aware of what drove his friend away and sensibly realises that at present he has no chance of getting him through the doors of an RC Church.

He does think that taking him to an Orthodox Church ~may~ work - as it will expose him to liturgical Worship of God again . Once he the fallen away friend ] is more relaxed he may well try and tempt him back to catholicism.

And all you can do is cite Canons and **tell him that he’s wrong to try and re-evangalise his friend since it ~may~ involve a non Catholic , but Apostolic Church **, this is a truly wonderful way to win friends and spread the Love of Christ.
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(bolded emphasis mine)

No, I didn’t tell that he is wrong to try and re-evangelize his friend. What I said, however, is that he is not free to accompany his friend to an Eastern Orthodox Divine Liturgy, except as approved by his local ecclesial authority (Catholic priest, bishop). That’s where all those Canons and Vatican documents point, if I understand them correctly.
 
L_piperatus said:
This Canon, previously cited by 5Loaves

CCEO Canon 670 §1. For a just cause Catholics can attend the liturgical worship of other Christians and take part in the same, observing those things which, by reason of the degree of communion with the Catholic Church, are established by the eparchial bishop or by a superior authority.

also indicates that the eparchial bishop or superior authority is in charge of directing the activities of lay Catholics in case of joint liturgical worship. The Canon, especially together with the Vatican documents quoted above, seems to indicate to me that we as lay Catholics are not free to simply go wherever we want and do whatever we want to do. It is a matter of prudence and obedience that we talk to our pastors (priest, bishop) and obtain their approval to attend the services of non-Catholic Churches.
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I believe you have misinterpreted that Canon.

It states, first of all, that Catholics “CAN attend.” It doesn’t make sense for you to interpret the rest of it to mean that they can’t. The rest of the Canon is not about permission to attend (according to the first part of the Canon, the permission is already a given), but rather about certain rules that apply when one attends (e.g., receiving the Eucharist, etc.).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
L_piperatus said:
. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible.
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I am interested in this concept of ‘morally impossible’. I know there are some people who are given a dispensation from the Sunday obligation when they could still be ‘physically’ present in church, such as when someone suffers severe debilitating social anxiety. I have heard of scrupulous people being dispensed from having to enumerate their sins in confession, simply to say ‘I am a sinner’ because it is morally impossible for them to examine their conscience accurately (as someone who used to suffer from scruples I know what I’m talking about here).

I wonder if someone who is just so angry and justifiably so after being hurt again and again by the Catholic Church, and who literally can’t sit through a Mass without vomiting or having a panic attack could be described as finding it ‘morally impossible’ to participate in Catholic worship, and thus free to approach our local Orthodox priest?
 
mardukm said:
I believe you have misinterpreted that Canon.

It states, first of all, that Catholics “CAN attend.” It doesn’t make sense for you to interpret the rest of it to mean that they can’t. The rest of the Canon is not about permission to attend (according to the first part of the Canon, the permission is already a given), but rather about certain rules that apply when one attends (e.g., receiving the Eucharist, etc.).
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Well said!
👍
 
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