Acknowledging Islam

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Yes that’s correct. I was referring to the beginning of Islam which appeared among the tribes of Arabia but did spread to other countries. Once Arablia had been transformed by Muhammad then Islam spread throughout the world. The Arab tribes were in the lowest depths of savagery and barbarism and would even bury their first born alive in the desert sand if it was a girl.

Muhammad transformed and united these tribes into a great nation.
 
I believe we should see all people as our brothers and sisters. Muslims are the same human being as a person of any other religion or an atheist so I think our common humanity is what is important.

To me both Catholics and Muslims are my family although I am neither catholic nor Muslim. I think unconditional love is what God is all about. It’s what Jesus taught also.
 
Try and remember that laws such as those you mentioned were revealed for a time there was barbarism, no law and order, no constitution, in the desert where there were no jails, prisons or corrective facilities, nowhere to detain criminals, no courts, judges, police or lawyers.

How do you protect people in these conditions in the desert from mass rape and murder? Harsh laws were required then to act as a deterrent and stop criminals from reoffending as they couldn’t imprison them in the desert.

But clearly today these laws are outdated and no longer work. Like with Moses in the desert, penalties were harsh because of the desert conditions. Today in the modern age these laws need to be changed but it takes time.

The definition of an infidel in those days was not simply a non believer but were those who actively tried to harm or injure Muslims. Muhammad befriended both Jews and Christians who did not attack or harm Muslims.

Sura 2:62

62 The believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabaeans—all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good deeds—will be rewarded by their Lord; they shall have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Infidels are those who committed acts of genocide against Muslims not your average Jew or Christian who Muhammad praised. The Quran praises Jesus, the Gospels and Torah and all people of any Faith who do good deeds.

Misinformation about violence in the Quran has been spread by people using out of context verses but those who know the Quran thoroughly knows it promotes only self defense.
 
worldcitizen said:
Try and remember that laws such as those you mentioned were revealed for a time there was barbarism, no law and order, no constitution, in the desert where there were no jails, prisons or corrective facilities, nowhere to detain criminals, no courts, judges, police or lawyers.

How do you protect people in these conditions in the desert from mass rape and murder? Harsh laws were required then to act as a deterrent and stop criminals from reoffending as they couldn’t imprison them in the desert.

But clearly today these laws are outdated and no longer work. Like with Moses in the desert, penalties were harsh because of the desert conditions. Today in the modern age these laws need to be changed but it takes time.
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Ok I understand your likening similar harsh desert conditions during the time of Mohammed to the conditions at the time of the Israelites, hence similar apparently harsh laws and penalties. However, when Jesus arrived on the scene, he changed some of these laws, eg. Mathew 5: 38-39. Instead of “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” as commanded in the Old Testament, Jesus said “When a person strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other”
In Mathew 5:43-48, instead of the old commandment “You shall love your countryman but hate your enemy”, Jesus commands us to “Love your enemies and pray for those who hate you”. So hear are a few questions
  1. Jesus brought relief from the harsh laws and punishment of the Old Testament. Since Mohammed came after Jesus and was familiar with the Gospels, one would expect him to improve on the commands of Jesus instead of going back to those of the Old Testament. What then did he accomplish that Jesus had not already accomplished or what new mesage did he bring that is different or better than those of Jesus.
  2. My understanding is that the Quran cotains the unchangeable words of Allah and was dictated to Mohammed. If some of the barbaric laws in the Koran are outdated, (same with some in the Old Testament) as you admit, who then has the authority to change them to conform to the norms of the modern era. Since Islam teaches that Mohammed is the last prophet, he, unlike Jesus, cannot change these laws. Or is some other prophet coming after Mohammed? For sure Islamic scholars or imams or anybody else cannot change these laws. So how do you reconcile the unchangeability of the Quran with your assertion that some of the harsh pennalties in the Quran need to be changed.
Please note that my comments are about the religion of Islam and not about Moslems. To me Moslems are just like any group of human beings equally loved by God our Creator, with good and bad people just like any other group of people.
 
worldcitizen said:
Yes you are correct. Unfortunately a lot of these outdated laws will die hard but we live in a new age and I think many of these laws will just die out eventually through the fact times have changed. I am not a Muslim and never have been but I do believe God sent Muhammad and the Quran to civilise the Arabs. I am confident that in time these people will adapt and change what is no longer acceptable in this age.
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I appreciate your posts and in discussing on this subject. I am sorry for thinking that your are a Muslim. It is the first time that I hear someone saying Sharia has outlived its usefulness. No Muslims should deny Sharia but it is true too that many of them would rather have secular law for the country. In that sense you are not too wrong but wrong in the true sense of Islam which claims its law and value are good for all times.

Pure Islam will not change, which you say ‘adapting’. It expects the world to conform to it, not the other way round. And like Christianity as a religion, it also wants to Islamise the world. There are unpleasant facts and practices of Islam that many of us in the West would like to pretend that they do not exist, perhaps unable to accept its reality.

I am not saying that Islam is totally bad. As a major religion there are many good values that it has which can share. But make no mistake about it, as you seem to imply, Islam is not compatible with the modern world. It was good to civilize the Arabs but the next strage for them would be to live in a really civilized world, not the culture of the desert anymore. And Islam basically cannot change into something that it is not.

God bless.
 
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Hi opulumpu,

Very good questions. Firstly. Because Muhammad appeared among the tribes of Arabia in the desert the situation was such that laws had to be harsh to protect the innocent. But as the Quran states that the Gospels are truth and from God then the laws of love also applied to Muslims.

Whereas Jesus focus was on the individual, Muhammad’s was on ummah, community and nation building. So His religion established things like constitutions and laws like consultation and how to run a multi religious nation. I think that His was the first constitution ever in history to cover other religions within it. Christians, Jews, Sabeans and other religions had rights under these constitutions. He also made pacts with Christians such as the pact with the Sinai monastery. He was a true Statesman in that sense not only a Prophet.

Yet many of these laws and teachings aren’t for this age. Some clearly can no longer be applied. Reforming Islam is made more difficult because of the belief no Prophet will come after Muhammad but this view is questionable when we read passages in the Quran such as these…

Sura 31:27

And if all the trees on earth were pens and the ocean were ink, with seven oceans behind it to add to its supply, still the words of God would not be exhausted, for God is Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom. And…

Quran 15 verse 21

And thy Lord shall come and the angels rank on rank

These two passages speak of revelations from God after Muhammad.
 
Thank you and I enjoyed reading your post. I believe that most Muslims like most Christians are good and reasonable people and have great hope that reconciliation will occur and we shall become as one family.

God created all men in His Image so we all have goodness within us and it is this goodness I see as what will bring us together.
 
Thanks. It is my stand as well, which has not changed. I see Muslims as a people like most of us and those that I know, I have no problem with. I have Muslims who count as my very good friends. A couple of them from my youth through university, work and profession. They share the same value and aspiration.

But Islam as a religion is another matter altogether (which has been commented).
 
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It’s more likely she’s just a nut, apart from her religion, because being rude to paying customers doesn’t make any business sense.
 
It’s a very noble thing you’ve done to show love to all regardless of diversity of thought. This is what Jesus taught. God bless.
 
No argument there. Unfortunately, most people are not built that way (as my father used to say), but over time, things may change for the better.
 
Hi Worldcitizen

You and I agree, viewed from the lense of the modern age, that some of the punishments contained in the Old Testament and in the Quran appear to be barbaric, like stoning an adulteress to death or chopping off limbs for stealing, etc. etc. As you proffered (I agree with you on this from a human point of view) these punishments were meant to address the harsh conditions of the desert in those days. The Jewish religion and Islam are similar in that they do not separate state from religion; the difference is that the former is particular to the Israelites while the later embraces the whole of humanity. Jesus comes along knowing that this arrangement was only temporary, the purpose of which was to introduce mankind to the concept of One God. The arrangement was not perfect but you cannot feed a one-day old baby double-meat hambuger or roasted lamb; its body is not developed enough to handle that kind of meal. So it is with we humans when it comes to understanding the concept of an Almighty God. Knowledge of God is a gradual process. Jesus comes along and gradually starts revealing the true nature of God. He told his Disciples that they could not understand His message and promised them He would send them the Holy Spirit that will reveal all truths to them. So right from the get-go, Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God which is different from the understanding of the Jews. He separates religion from state as in Mathew 22:21 'Give to Caeser what belongs to Caeser and to God what belongs to God" and in other instances in the New Testament.

I can appreciate the majority of Moslems who accept whatever the Imams or Islamic Scholars say is the true worship of God. Similarly I can appreciate the majority of Christians or people of other faiths who blindly accept whatever theology their religious leaders push on them. They cannot or do not have the independence, training or education to question these teachings. But what about you and I; we can respectfully discuss our varied understanding about our concept of who God is and about our relationship to Him.

So here is my question to you: As an educated Moslem, do you not see that Islam is stuck in the same level of development as the Jewish religion; both were relevant in those days to the harsh conditions in the deserts of Arabia and Africa. Do you not see that the message of Jesus who describes God as a God of love is an improvement over the concept of God as taught in Islam. In the Quran, (Sura 2:222, 61:4, 3:76 etc) God’s love is conditional; ie one must be worthy of God’s love in order to be loved by God. Meaning that one must earn the right to be loved by God. Jesus teaches the opposite that God loves all including sinners; His love is unconditional. As an educated Moslem, do you not see any merit in further exploring the teachings of Jesus. If you disagree with some of the punishments in the Quran knowing that the Quran cannot be changed, are you practicing Islam according to the Quran. No one can change some of the teachings in the Quran like Jesus changed some of the teachings in the Old Testament.

Peace
 
Christphr said:
St. Francis of Assisi visited the Sultan of Egypt he admired the 5 times daily call to prayer.
Muslims are very religious people. What can we learn from them?
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We can learn a great deal from Islam in my view and Muslims on the whole are very sincere and devout people. A few years ago I offered a study on the Qur’an and learned a lot also studied and practised some Arabic which is a fascinating language.
 
Islam is a violent, hateful, and murderous religion. I lived under it my whole life and I would never wish such a thing upon anyone.
 
Masihi said:
Islam is a violent, hateful, and murderous religion.
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I can only speak of my own experiences, but I’ve seen the muslims on the corner selling incense and Final Call newspapers for many , many years.

Maybe they are officially required to hate me, as I am a white Christian, but I really don’t feel hatred in my heart from these guys.
 
I have no hate in my heart for Muslims, only for Islam. I don’t blame them for being the way they are. Some are good but it always seems practicing Muslims are the most hateful while the non practicing are the most kind. So this showed me that Islam is really at fault.
 
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