ACLU Cemetery Cross Removal Redux

[marcadam]

I’m gonna start a new thread on this, since the last was so polluted with rants…
Nan S:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/17/Normandy_cemetery.jpg

OK. Let the ACLU try to remove THESE!!!

and denials…

Matt25:

The story is not true. If it was other sources would report it. You are not the only ACLU hater out there the fact that the likes of the Cybercast News Service have not touched should tell you something…

The story is not believable because it has no supporting facts…

I checked out other local news outlets and the Ohio ACLU website acluohio.org/ . None of them mention this story. When a story matches an urban myth, has no supporting facts and some fairly ludicrous photo’s it seems fair to doubt it more than slightly.

All this was based on partial facts, so I did a little digging. Really, it wasn’t hard to do. In spite of other’s claims to the contrary, there were plenty of verifiable facts in that story. For instance, there is a Mickey McDonald and he is a Trustee of Elk Township in Vinton County, Ohio. Just for kicks, I gave him a ring and left a message on the machine they haven’t bothered to program with a new outgoing message. To my surprise, I heard back within the hour, and he had quite a tale.

But first, don’t worry about Arlington (Normandy?). See, this is happening in a cemetery, but the plot was given a new function as a war memorial.

I didn’t quite get all the details, but Mickey’s friend Cy Karns wasn’t able to go to Korea due to a disability, but it was his goal to have the local boys who did go remembered. Mickey threw in a chunk of his own money, raised funds from a few other folks, and they bought and donated the plot to Cy. Someone also had a very nice plaque made. Cy had also wanted to use the old cross that had been pulled down from the courthouse, so Mickey helped him get through the red tape on that, and I think the county just gave it to them. They also put up a light so that the memorial would be visible at night.

The sticking points for the ACLU are several, but it all rotates around pretty much one thing, in my opinion: they’re cheesed because this cross that they thought they’d gotten rid of is now being shoved back in their faces. The location is a prominent hilltop with a lot of car traffic to and from the county seat (well, a lot for a county that has fewer than 20,000 residents… Mickey gave me a better number, but I can’t remember it). So, they’re going to try and stick it to these folks who were just trying to help their friend realize his dream, a noble one at that.

Mickey also faxed me an article from the ACLU Ohio periodical. They are currently investigating the situation, going over trustee meetings and the like. The land was purchased with private donations, and was planned/envisioned by a private citizen, but the local ACLU is looking into the legality of “retasking” a cemetery plot into a prominent war memorial. This has a ways to go before it plays out.

Matt25:

This story is a crock. Its an urban myth spread by hoaxers. It has no basis in fact and is believed only by the paranoid.

Funny, Mickey McDonald didn’t seem all that paranoid to me. More annoyed wonderment that they would pick his little township in which to throw their weight around. But thanks for prodding me to check into that, it was a lot more fun than I expected!

-Marc

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Go Marc GO:clapping: :dancing: :clapping: Oh, Matt

 

[geezerbob]

Thanks, marc. I never got a response from the TV station and your post pretty well clears things up as to whether the story is true or not. For someone to flatly declare a story false because is shows up on only one news outlet is (pick your own word(s)).

 

[David_Paul]

Article in on MSNBC and FOX.

 

[marcadam]

geezerbob:

Thanks, marc. I never got a response from the TV station and your post pretty well clears things up as to whether the story is true or not. For someone to flatly declare a story false because is shows up on only one news outlet is (pick your own word(s)).

I emailed the news director at NBC 4 as well, and haven’t heard back. All I was looking for was a verification. True or false. Then again, I suppose a “false” for an established news organization would hardly be forthcoming. Not to mention the implied insult in asking if what they reported was true… but c’mon, this is the MSM we are talking about. They have been known to run with urban legends on rumor, thinking that because more than a few people have heard it, must be true, even if the principals can’t be found.

The main reason I doubted that it was myth though, was the actual naming of principals, especially a local government official, which was easy enough to verify against the public record. All I did was Googled “‘elk township’ ohio,” then “‘vinton county’ ohio”. Real hard-core research there.

The secondary reason is more obvious: this is a capsule review of a television news story. Which means, even though I’m not anywhere near in range of a Columbus, Ohio TV signal, we can be pretty sure people directly involved were actually interviewed, on camera. If the story were untrue, these folks weren’t just running unverified hearsay, they were going to extreme lengths to fabricate it from whole cloth, which seems pretty sketchy.

So for anyone of sound mind, the preponderance of evidence implied the veracity of the story. The fact that the existence of Elk Township and Mickey McDonald could be independently verified pretty much cinched it. But once I saw the phone number, I couldn’t resist. I suspected Mark25’s brand of ideology would have been yelling “deny! deny!” even though the people could be tracked down: “…but did you talk to them?”

Well as a matter of fact I did, and it was a real hoot. I was just calling as a “concerned citizen,” 500 miles and two state lines away, just looking for verification, not wanting to take up too much of his time. Instead he tells me the whole story, more than what was on the news, and faxes me some stuff to boot. A really gracious guy. I’m sure it didn’t hurt that I was on his side.

Of course, you have to trust that I’m actually telling the truth, and not part of some grand conspiracy to discredit the ACLU. Well, not to worry: they’ve done it for themselves. I’ll write more on that later.

 

[Matt25]

The story says

A representative from the American Civil Liberties Union told Elk Township the cross must leave the government-owned cemetery.

What is the name of the ACLU representative? When and how did s/he tell Elk Township to remove the cross?

 

[Digitonomy]

I was thinking about giving the township trustees a call last week; I too looked them up online. I gave the story a few days to percolate, hoping another news organization would report on this in a more detailed and professional way. Then you reported back in that thread, so I felt there was no need to bother the hard-working trustees of Elk Township.

If what you’ve said so far is representative of the other material you have, it does sound as if the NBC affiliate exaggerated the present state of affairs. I look forward to more details.

Good job going the extra mile for the truth.

 

[David_Paul]

marcadam:

Funny, Mickey McDonald didn’t seem all that paranoid to me. More annoyed wonderment that they would pick his little township in which to throw their weight around. But thanks for prodding me to check into that, it was a lot more fun than I expected!-Marc

Good work. Next to Christmas, graduation is the ACLU’s busiest season. We will see many more abuses by the nonprofit.

KDKA reports the ACLU has put one school district “on notice” in Knox, Pennsylvania for not stopping prayers at some events and is “monitoring” two unnamed other districts.

 

[aimee]

Matt25:

The story says

What is the name of the ACLU representative? When and how did s/he tell Elk Township to remove the cross?

Believe me when I say the ACLU has flipped out here …I can’t speak of the British CLU… but here I can …

 

[Nan_S]

marcadam:

But first, don’t worry about Arlington (Normandy?).

You’re very observant. The picture IS of Normandy. Several others American WWII military cemetaries in France used cross headstones, also.

It’s not that Arlington doesn’t have crosses as headstones; there are plenty, erected with private funds. But the Normandy picture was just so much splashier…

Can someone explain why it is that the Europeans have no problem with putting up rows and rows of crosses, but the Americans insist that the generic government-issued headstone in a military cemetary be a rectangle?

 

[David_Paul]

Nan S:

Can someone explain why it is that the Europeans have no problem with putting up rows and rows of crosses, but the Americans insist that the generic government-issued headstone in a military cemetary be a rectangle?

Interesting question. The history of government furnished headstones and markers is here. Lots of information but no real answer. The number needed during and after the Civil War set the general design.

 

[marcadam]

Sorry I didn’t respond in a more timely manner. I’ve been trying to avoid the Forums, since they are doing serious damage to my productivity at work.

Matt25:

The story says

What is the name of the ACLU representative? When and how did s/he tell Elk Township to remove the cross?

According to the ACLU Ohio Appalachian Chapter newsletter story that Mickey faxed me, the ACLU contact with the Elk Township Trustees was Appalachian Chapter Secretary Eliot Kalman. They have not yet threatened any legal action, but are have been making inquiries into the procdures and legalities behind the memorial.

The article is pretty snakey. They pretty much know that if they threaten anything, Elk Township will cave because they simply don’t have the resources for a legal battle. Even though to call this “government promotion of religion” is incredibly tenuous: privately acting individuals purchased the plot with private funds.

 

[David_Paul]

Standard ACLU operating procedure. Troll the backwoods for cases. The hope is to find something people will fight over but can’t win so ACLU lawyers can collect court costs.

 

[Matt25]

marcadam:

Sorry I didn’t respond in a more timely manner. I’ve been trying to avoid the Forums, since they are doing serious damage to my productivity at work.

According to the ACLU Ohio Appalachian Chapter newsletter story that Mickey faxed me, the ACLU contact with the Elk Township Trustees was Appalachian Chapter Secretary Eliot Kalman. They have not yet threatened any legal action, but are have been making inquiries into the procdures and legalities behind the memorial.

The article is pretty snakey. They pretty much know that if they threaten anything, Elk Township will cave because they simply don’t have the resources for a legal battle. Even though to call this “government promotion of religion” is incredibly tenuous: privately acting individuals purchased the plot with private funds.

So in other words the ACLU has not asked for the cross to be removed from the cemetery.