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Brad
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Positive proof of the supernatural - miraclesWow, we’re agreed on something!
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Brad
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Considering that space appears infinite, I’m not sure why a humongous universe couldn’t get infintely more humongous.
In any event, I have to understand more about his theory to understand all the ramifications. I’ll do the research in all my spare time.
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Catholic2003
Guest
This isn’t a specific calculation as to the age of the universe. It’s a general result as to the topology (or possible topolgies) of the space-time manifold of our universe. If the universe is infinite, then it has no earliest age. If the universe is finite (i.e., the topology is compact), then when the universe was young, it was small.
This does not take any speed of light variation into account. I don’t know if that has been done by physicists yet; the speed of light was still constant when I graduated from school.
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Brad
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Again - nothing stopping God from creating an infinite-appearing universe. I presume He knows a bit about physics. Maybe he did a few of his own experiments for kicks - like say, going bowling on Saturn.
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buffalo
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jlw
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Pardon the interruption, but this is fun to watch. I’m out of my league here, so I’m just trying to digest your back-n-forth.
Anybody have any popcorn??
Anybody have any popcorn??
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Catholic2003
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Anything is possible with God. We can entertain all sorts of speculations - It’s just that I don’t consider such speculations to be within the realm of science unless they result in predictions that can be experimentally tested.
My personal theory is that God recognized when mankind needed divine revelation about our purpose here on Earth, and He didn’t let a little thing like the Israelites not having enough scientific knowledge to understand general relativity and quantum mechanics stop Him from inspiring Moses to write Genesis.
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Catholic2003
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buffalo said:
Interesting articles. It looks like physics won’t understand the implications of this for decades or centuries to come. It’s an unexpected change from how physics has been working for the past several decades, with theory leading the way and experimentation trying to keep up the pace. Now experimentation has thrown a monkey wrench into the works. This is exactly why experimental verification is a key part of science.
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caroljm36
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I like this approach, for simplicity’s sake, as long as the public school teacher or text book doesn’t then conclude, “…therefore the primitive belief in creation by a supreme being is disproved…” or somesuch. They should teach what we know so far about the material development of the universe and life forms, which should not be in any way contradictory to the Catholic faith, and leave it at that.
Now, fundies will have a problem with it…but as Catholics we should not. But as part of catechesis, we should point out that discovery of things like the big bang raise more questions than they answer, and that such a universe as ours couldn’t spring from nothing. I think it’s expecting too much for public schools to get into first-causes and reasons why etc. A Catholic school should be able to combine both discussions. It’s more practical and prudent to make our case separately from the public schools IMHO.
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jlw
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fundies??? HA!
Good one!! Can I steal it??
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Catholic2003
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I’m going back and reading through the thread more closely, and I have a question about this. I don’t really understand why intelligent design would be falsified by life on other planets. After all, the intelligent design of American automobiles is not falsified by the discovery that there are automobiles in Japan, albeit with the steering wheel on the wrong side.
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Bobby_Jim
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I would be very interested in finding out, should life be discovered elsewhere in the universe, if it uses the same basic conventions as life here generally uses, e.g. if it had DNA as a molecule carrying genetic information, would it use the same G-C and A-T base pairing scheme, or might it use other bases. Would it use the same 20 common alpha-amino acids, or would it choose from the great variety of other options? Codons of 3 bases, or more, or fewer? Or something totally unlike our so-called “central dogma” of DNA, RNA, and proteins (which is the oversimplified version).
Either way the answer would be pretty irrelevant as to this question of “intelligent design”, although it would help answer the question as to whether the way life exists here on earth is the only possible solution to the problem. Which I think is an implicit assumption when people calculate the astronomical odds for life arising spontaneously (although I think that approach has other sublte flaws as well).
Either way the answer would be pretty irrelevant as to this question of “intelligent design”, although it would help answer the question as to whether the way life exists here on earth is the only possible solution to the problem. Which I think is an implicit assumption when people calculate the astronomical odds for life arising spontaneously (although I think that approach has other sublte flaws as well).
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Catholic2003
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Bobby Jim:
From the Talk.Origins link, it looks like there is some (extremely minor) variation already in the life on Earth:
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buffalo
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Let’s just suppose that eventually all science points to a first cause and there is no other explanation, public school or not, don’t you think we should inform them?
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Trelow
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So the nuts and bolts is that you don’t believe that it should be mentioned in public schools that intelligent design is one of many possibilities?
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buffalo
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No. I believe that it should be mentioned in education. If some object to it in science class, it certainly could fall under current events as it is a ongoing discussion.
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Trelow
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Guess I should note who I’m addressing, sorry.
It’s for Catholic2003.
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lewri
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This is exactly why there are Protestants! lol The Pope is a man. He’s not God. I believe what God said in Genesis 1:1-31 is self explanatory.
*]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
*]And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
*]And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
*]And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
*]And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
*]And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
*]And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
*]And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
*]And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
*]And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
*]And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
*]And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
*]And the evening and the morning were the third day.
*]And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
*]And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
*]And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
*]And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
*]And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
*]And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
*]And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
*]And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
*]And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
*]And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
*]And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
*]And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
*]And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
*]So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
*]And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
*]And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
*]And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
*]And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Seems straight forward to me. If I don’t BELIEVE Him there, why would I BELIEVE Christ is God incarnate? Is God lying? Is God a fool? God forbid!
The fact is that two birds mate. Those two birds are of a different strain. Those two strains make a different bird, but they’re STILL BIRDS! They’re not humans. Same thing with an ape. Evolution is theory. Nothing more and nothing less.
Do you believe the bible? I do!
In Christ,
Lew
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jlw
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Lew, don’t understand your point. We all know the Pope is a man and not God. Duh.
As a Catholic, the bible passage seems pretty straightforward to me, too.
It all comes down to faith.
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Catholic2003
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As buffalo said, I don’t have any problem with discussing intelligent design as a possibility, in the context of a philosophy class, a comparative religion class, or even as a current event.
When it comes to science, I think the discussion should be limited to what can be tested by the scientific method, with the understanding that there are many, many important things which cannot be ascertained in this manner.
For example, consider the “Star Trek: The Next Generation” theory of Intelligent Design, in which there is a hologram recording spread across the DNA of human and alien life forms. It is true that there are massive sections of DNA that appear to serve no purpose, but speculations that they contain a message of peace from a distant ancestor race is way outside the current scientific realm.
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