ACNA & LCMS continue dialogue

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Aslan 10:
“As you might be able to tell, I attend an ACNA parish. I would classify it as “moderate,” although many would unjustly say it is lower than Death Valley (no incense or bells). However, we have many in the parish with an Anglo-Catholic slant, the rector being moderate, and one of the priests being more AC”.
GKC said:
True. Motley. With motley views of what is traditional. My parish is not ACNA, was formed shortly after St. Louis, is nosebleed high and Anglo-Catholic, (generally), quite traditional, in the historic Anglican/AC sense. And yet… got motley aspects.
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I am a learner in this thread, and don’t know enough to comment much. I have to say I love the descriptions here, in terms of high/low.
 
commenter said:
Aslan 10:
“As you might be able to tell, I attend an ACNA parish. I would classify it as “moderate,” although many would unjustly say it is lower than Death Valley (no incense or bells). However, we have many in the parish with an Anglo-Catholic slant, the rector being moderate, and one of the priests being more AC”.

I am a learner in this thread, and don’t know enough to comment much. I have to say I love the descriptions here, in terms of high/low.
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Anglo-Catholic is related to the Oxford Movement, high/low to the succeeding Ritualist movement, though the terms are often used interchangeably.
 
Conservative is a more appropriate term than traditional.

In every tradition, there’s a liberal/mainline denomination and a conservative breakaway.

ELCA vs. LCMS
ECUSA vs. ACNA
UCC vs. CCC (United Church of Christ vs. Conservative Congregationalist bodies)
RCA vs. conservative Reformed/Calvinist bodies
ABC vs. SBC (American Baptist vs. Southern Baptist)
PCUSA vs. OPC/PCA (Presbyterians)
UMC vs. fundamentalist Methodist bodies
 
Breakaway might apply to some of those, but I certainly wouldn’t call the LCMS a “breakaway.” Its origins are separate from the ELCA and it’s been around much longer. I’m also in sure how much longer the ELCA can claim to be mainline, either. The LCMS really isn’t that much smaller nowadays.

But I understand your point.
 
JonNC said:
Anglicans: where does the Anglican Province in America fit in the continuum ?
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Slightly to the reformed/low side. But not so much as to not be talking to the ACA, the ACC and the Diocese of the Holy Cross, who are on the Anglo-Catholic side.
 
GKC said:
Slightly to the reformed/low side. But not so much as to not be talking to the ACA, the ACC and the Diocese of the Holy Cross, who are on the Anglo-Catholic side.
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Indeed, “slightly” being of important emphasis. 😉
 
It’s a 13-page report, so I won’t copy paste the entirety. I think that’d be against forum rules, anyhow. But here are some excerpts:
Some observers might question the value of the ongoing talks between ACNA and LCMS–LCC. After all, the numerically largest Lutheran and Anglican
churches in North America have been in full communion with each other for some decades past, and this state of fellowship is reflected in the relations between many churches of the “mainline” Anglican Communion and the Lutheran World Federation (LWF). Moreover, since neither side of our dialogue expects to achieve altar and pulpit fellowship with the other in the foreseeable future, many might understandably yawn in boredom over the slowly developing relationship between us and even question the wisdom of investing time, effort, and money in the series of joint meetings we have held in various locations over the past six years…
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There is in fact enormous overlap between successive editions of the Book of Common Prayer and how it took shape in church life, on the one hand, and the on the way in which the Book of Concord was reflected in the teaching, worship, and ethos of the Lutheran churches of Germany and Scandinavia. Accordingly, we can ascertain much compatibility between historic Anglicanism and Lutheranism in fundamental doctrine, liturgy, hymnody, and devotion.
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For a considerable portion of the 18th century the ruling kings of England (who remained electors of Hanover) were practicing Lutherans and Anglicans at the same time; the Lutheran George Frederick Handel composed his church music mainly in England; and there was much formal cooperation on the mission field between some German Lutherans and the Church of England. We should not overstate the case, however. The Lutheran chaplain of Prince George of Denmark (1653-1708) refused to commune him after he decided, on certain state occasions, to receive the sacrament alongside his wife, Queen Anne.
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Rather than describe ACNA and LCMS–LCC as sister churches, we should acknowledge each other as ecclesial first cousins, closely related indeed, but not yet
partaking publicly of the same Lord’s Table…
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From ancient times the expression lex credendi lex orandi (=“law of faith, law of prayer”) has expressed the intimate inter-relationship of doctrine and worship, of what is preached with what is prayed. We note that while Anglicans have been famous for their patterns of prayer and devotion, Lutherans have majored in more precise doctrinal definition and theological precision. While both sides acknowledge the essential quality of both lex credendi and lex orandi, it may be that Lutherans can assist Anglicans toward more careful attention to the first and that Anglicans can help Lutherans to deepen their practice of the second. Moreover, as our denominations acknowledge God’s call to a life transformed in Christ we can agree that our spiritual practices and doctrinal statements are part of the transforming power of Christ in our lives or the law of life in Christ, lex vivendi in Christo…
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While the participants in our dialogues speedily agreed to work toward intermediate goals that stop short of the establishment of full communion/altar
and pulpit fellowship between us, both sides acknowledge that the sad divisions within Christendom do not correspond with the will of Him who is the sole Head of His mystical body, the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We accordingly make it our prayer that, in the time and manner of His choosing, our Lord would grant each side in our conversations to acknowledge our “first cousin” to be in fact a true sister church, with the result that we would welcome each other wholeheartedly to our respective altars and enjoy the blessed situation in which our clergy and people would be interchangeable with each other as we stand under the grace of God and work for His kingdom.
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Agreement was found to be “non-church-dividing” on several issues, with doctrinal statements corresponding between the 39 Articles and the Lutheran Confessions:

  1. God the Holy Trinity (Art I = CA I)
  2. Jesus Christ the Incarnate Word and His saving work (Art II = CA III)
  3. The unique authority of the divinely inspired Holy Scripture
  4. The credal heritage (CA I – Art VIII)
  5. Original Sin (Art IX = CA II)
  6. Justification (CA IV = Art XI)
  7. Good Works (Art XII = CA VI)
  8. Holy Baptism (Art XXVII = CA IX)
  9. Holy Absolution
  10. The role of Christian princes in time past, and the ongoing dangers of Erastianism

  1. It’s worth noting that the traditional understanding of marriage was restated in a footnote: “An Affirmation of Marriage” — A statement by the ACNA, LCC, LCMS & NALC
The document concluded:
When our open-ended conversations began six years ago, some of the signatories to this report approached our task with a mixture of low expectations and a certain nervousness before the unknown. All of us are somewhat surprised to have discovered the deep common bonds between us in the Body of Christ, and to have registered the large measure of consensus that we have documented above. We regard these things that we have discovered together as a gift of the Lord, and trust Him to use our findings to His glory and to the good of the universal Church. As we commend this report to the people and clergy of ACNA, LCMS, and LCC, we encourage Lutherans and Anglicans to remember each other in prayer, embrace one another in Christian love, to encourage each other to confess Christ boldly in our ever darkening times, and to support each other in mission and outreach in faithfulness to Him who has laid the same Great Commission on us all.
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Areas of disagreement included what we’d expect, though with considerably more common ground:
**8. Holy Ministry & Means of Grace **
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Both churches agree that, when Jesus called the apostles and laid particular mandates upon them, our Lord established an office of ministry, distinct from the royal priesthood of the baptized, which is to continue till His coming again. At the same time, there are important distinctions in our understandings of ministry and ecclesiology. Following an interpretation of the New Testament data which Luther and his colleagues took over from St. Jerome through Peter Lombard (†1160), the Book of Concord recognizes no major difference between bishop and presbyter and hence focuses on the essential oneness of the office founded by Christ for the proclamation of the Gospel and for the feeding of the flock (CA V).
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Thomas Cranmer’s Preface to his 1551 Ordinal, which forms part of the Book of Common Prayer, has a different perspective on the New Testament and the early Church: “It is evident unto all men diligently reading holy Scripture and ancient Authors, that from the Apostles’ time there have been three Orders of Ministers in Christ’s Church; Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.” Accordingly, Anglican clergy have been made Deacons, permanent deacons as well as transitional deacons. The transitional deacons in their capacity are similar to Lutheran “vicars.” For the full exercise of ministry, they are ordained Priests. For the ministry of supervision over a whole diocese, which includes being the ministers of confirmation and ordination, some Priests are consecrated to the office of Bishop.
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The office of bishop as such soon died out in Lutheran Germany, and as secular princes arrogated to themselves the title of “supreme bishop,” they delegated their presumed episcopal authority to ordained superintendents, who served at their pleasure. Looking at German Lutheranism from outside, Archbishop William Laud (†1645) held that while the Lutheran polity lacked the name (nomen) of bishop, it nevertheless retained its reality (res). And the major Lutheran theologian John Gerhard (†1637) taught that superintendents should be true bishops to and for the clergymen under their care.
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The episcopal succession inherited from the middle ages continued in the Lutheran lands of Sweden and Finland, which have always known and valued the office of bishop, while not regarding it as essential to the existence of the Church. Many classical Anglican theologians taught that the office of bishop pertains to the wellbeing (bene esse) or the full being (plene esse) rather than to the very essence (esse) of the Church, with only a minority denying legitimacy to the ministry of non-episcopal churches. A famous advocate of the latter view was John Henry Newman, who influenced many subsequent Anglo-Catholics on this point, without his perspective prevailing within the Anglican Communion as a whole.
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The structuring of ordained ministry is a topic that should be addressed in our conversations on the basis of the New Testament and church-historical data.
  • Anglicans ask Lutherans to consider the ways in which the ministry of bishop (as distinct from presbyter) is already at work among them, and encourage them to acknowledge this gift of the Holy Spirit in word and deed.
  • Lutherans ask Anglicans how recognition of the office of bishop can go hand in hand with acknowledgement of the unicity of the office instituted by Christ.
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We note that Lutheran Church–Canada has reawakened the office of Deacon, understanding it as an office auxiliaryto that of pastor (bishop/presbyter) and open to
both men and women. Within Anglicanism the diaconate was historically mainly a transitional office, held by a completed seminarian en route to the priesthood (presbyterate).
  • What, according to the New Testament, is the essence of the diaconate? How is it distinguished from the episcopate/presbyterate? How could and should a permanent diaconate take institutional form in our churches today?
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Using a term that emerged within both Anglicanism and Lutheranism around the middle of the 17th century, both churches understand the divinely commanded work of the ordained as a ministry of the “means of grace” whereby the Holy Spirit communicates to sinners the fruits of Christ’s work. LCMS–LCC understand the instituting words and deeds of Christ, authoritatively interpreted by the apostles, to preclude the ordination of women to the office of pastor (presbyter/bishop). The majority within ACNA holds this position, while being engaged at the present time in a consensus-seeking discussion with the minority within its midst that takes the opposite view. As Justification and adherence to Holy Scripture are points of greatest common agreement between our church bodies, the ordering of the ministry is the area where we have found the most work, study, and discussion needs to be done to reach a common understanding of the connection between our practices.
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Continued…
 
9. The Church
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Slight differences of nuance, which are not freighted with church-divisive force, are apparent as the 39 Articles (Arts. XIX & XX) make their own the earlier confession of the Lutherans at Augsburg (CA VII, VIII, XV). While the essence of the Church, which is Christ’s presence among, that is, His indwelling of forgiven sinners, is not visible to the human eye, the Church becomes manifest in time and space as the “pure Word is preached” (Art. XIX) / “the Gospel is purely proclaimed” (CA VII) and “the Sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ’s ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same” (Art XIX) / ”the Sacraments are correctly administered” (CA VII)…
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We agree in rejecting the ancient heresy of Donatism (CA VIII; Art. XXVI)…
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As we grapple with the issue of the episcopal ordering of the Church, which has largely prevailed through space and time, we should be careful to avoid caricature of the other. LCMS–LCC appreciate the emphasis of Article IV.1 of ACNA’s constitution, which acknowledges that, “The fundamental agency of mission in the Province is the local congregation.
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**11. Holy Communion **
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We agree that the life of the Church on earth pinnacles in celebration of the rite that our Lord instituted for all subsequent generations of His followers in the upper room on the night of His betrayal. As we fail to agree fully on this sacrament of unity, we experience the pain of Christian division and long to attain true consensus with respect to the doctrine and practice of Holy Communion.
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The sacrament of the altar has undoubtedly been the most sensitive and charged topic dealt with in our discussions, with the Anglican side sometimes contesting the Lutheran reading of the Anglican formularies from the 16th century.
As Lutherans see it… relevant sections of Cranmer’s 42 Articles of 1553 and the Black Rubric placed in the 1552 Prayer Book …] manifestly advocate Zwingli’s non- (actually anti-) Lutheran understanding of Holy Communion.
…
Some ACNA representatives… [insist] on the aspect of mystery associated with Holy Communion, which defies precise verbal formulations. At this point we have noted that our confessionalism is not identical in tone and content.
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The matter of admission to the altar, and especially of the communing of Christians of other confession than that of the host congregation… requires further treatment in our conversations.
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“Some ACNA representatives… [insist] on the aspect of mystery associated with Holy Communion, which defies precise verbal formulations”

First, thank you for posting. I’m happy that they agreed on so much, but obviously there are disagreements on critical issues, the one quoted above being of the most interest to me. I personally say that I believe in the “real presence of Christ in the Eucharist” and stop at that. I tend to sympathize with the above quote and not wish to get into specifics on what actually happens.
 
(Do people know that last post was a joke? It’s always hard to predict these things. :()
 
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