"Act like an adult and you'll be treated like one"

[maryjk]

I’m actually better now about financial independence than I was. But I do have to say I hate how that’s become the line. Am I suddenly less of an adult or less worthy of respect because I’m disabled? Does the fact that where I was living my job wouldn’t provide necessary medical care and the state decided I wasn’t eligible for any aid because of my age/work history (did you know student jobs don’t count as “work”) mean I’m suddenly not an adult? If I were permanently disabled, would it be ok to treat me as a child for the rest of my life simply because I couldn’t take care of myself?

Um, I didn’t say that you weren’t an adult. I said, your mom may not see you as an adult.

That said, I do wonder about your reaction. Is that how you react when your mom says something you don’t like? If so, that may be part of the problem.

DarkLight, you have had so many problems with your mom. She has never seen you as an adult. She has always had problems with your clothing choice. I am betting she still doesn’t know that you are Catholic, because you don’t want to have to have that confrontation.

This reminds me of a part of a movie, Sweet Liberty. It was made back in '86 and stars a 50 year old Alan Alda.

In the movie, his mother, played by Lillian Gish, is kind of crazy. Tin foil hat, crazy.

At one point in the movie, Alda gets upset at Gish. She is talking about putting food on the TV, to clean it. (I don’t remember what she thinks is wrong with the food. Just that it has to sit on top of the TV for a couple of days before she can eat it.)

Alda’s girlfriend asks how long his mom has been, well, nuts. “All of my life,” is his answer. His girlfriend then asks, "Why do you expect her to be different?"

 

[revert_jen]

I think my big frustration is that (1) she makes it very difficult to drop a topic, and (2) it’s hard to know what sets her off. Well, other than the clothes, but I’m not buying new clothes just because she has a thing against skirts and dark colors.

I do feel like the relationship is getting better, but I also still feel like I’m walking on eggshells a lot trying to avoid topics that might set her off. Plus I know if I don’t engage immediately she’ll go running to my dad to make him try to get me to play nice and I hate having it pop up over there too once she’s made me out to be a spoiled brat to him. (To listen to her we were just having a polite conversation and I got mad and stormed out.) I’m trying to find the right balance between being firm on boundaries and not making her feel like I’m rejecting her completely, and it’s hard.

Phrases like “I’m sure you may be right” (after all it is possible) repeated ad nauseam are the best way to get her to drop it. As for the clothes, maybe get one outfit that she wouldn’t hate and just wear it when you visit her?

As for walking on eggshells, you just have to get used to it. I’ve been doing it for years, and the scariest thing is that my mother appears to think we have a great relationship, even though we can’t ever talk about anything important (usually not even anything interesting). It is what it is. If you can’t do anything about it, you just make the best of what you have.

And you need to understand that there is something between “engaging” and leaving the room. Refusing to get mad or defensive, and calmly saying things that are as conciliatory as possible without lying, not only makes people run out of steam faster, but it makes the whole process less “fun” for them, which might even cause her to engage in it less frequently. Try taking a slow, deep breath (without making it obvious! ) before replying. It is really hard the first time, especially since (if you’re anything like me) you’re sure her opinions are wrong but at the same time you know she will now think she’s won the argument. It’s frustrating, but that frustration isn’t from God, it’s from the other direction, and you have to fight it. It does get easier.

–Jen

 

[DarkLight]

Um, I didn’t say that you weren’t an adult. I said, your mom may not see you as an adult.

That said, I do wonder about your reaction. Is that how you react when your mom says something you don’t like? If so, that may be part of the problem.

DarkLight, you have had so many problems with your mom. She has never seen you as an adult. She has always had problems with your clothing choice. I am betting she still doesn’t know that you are Catholic, because you don’t want to have to have that confrontation.

This reminds me of a part of a movie, Sweet Liberty. It was made back in '86 and stars a 50 year old Alan Alda.

In the movie, his mother, played by Lillian Gish, is kind of crazy. Tin foil hat, crazy.

At one point in the movie, Alda gets upset at Gish. She is talking about putting food on the TV, to clean it. (I don’t remember what she thinks is wrong with the food. Just that it has to sit on top of the TV for a couple of days before she can eat it.)

Alda’s girlfriend asks how long his mom has been, well, nuts. “All of my life,” is his answer. His girlfriend then asks, "Why do you expect her to be different?"

Phrases like “I’m sure you may be right” (after all it is possible) repeated ad nauseam are the best way to get her to drop it. As for the clothes, maybe get one outfit that she wouldn’t hate and just wear it when you visit her?

As for walking on eggshells, you just have to get used to it. I’ve been doing it for years, and the scariest thing is that my mother appears to think we have a great relationship, even though we can’t ever talk about anything important (usually not even anything interesting). It is what it is. If you can’t do anything about it, you just make the best of what you have.

Visits are usually more than one day because of the cost of flying. Honestly it’s less about feeling like she’s won on either of our parts, and more the feeling on my part that she’ll see her victory as a sign to try harder. So something like “you may be right” tends to come back as “you said I was right, so now you’re obviously only not doing it out of rebellion.” That and she has a tendency to calmly ask no-win questions and keep at it, so I’m not always sure there’s anything conciliatory I can say.

I don’t know. I keep hoping she’ll change because I’ve really only been fully out of the house for 3 years. I’m not counting undergrad as out of the house, even though I was in a dorm when school was in session.

Its weird too, because I feel like the only thing she really respects is getting mad. Calm resistance and not engaging is met with confusion and accusations of sulking. Politely but firmly setting boundaries is met with her forgetting I ever said anything and then being upset when I set consequences because I “never said that.” I still try not to do it, but it seems like the times I have gotten upset with her and said what I was thinking are the times I’ve usually seen an actual improvement in our relationship. So, say, telling her repeatedly that I didn’t want to hear about my wardrobe didn’t do anything, but getting mad and saying just once I’d like to get dressed in the morning without hearing you comment about how much you dislike my clothes actually got her to say, huh, I didn’t realize I was actually commenting that much.

 

[HelenRose]

Is there any good answer to that phrase? What I want to say is no, I expect to be treated like an adult because I am one, no matter what your opinion of how adults should behave. But of course that just doesn’t work when the other person sees you as acting “childish.” How do you have a mature discussion about what’s mature, anyway?

I would say: “I will behave as an adult even if I am treated as a child.”

“I will treat others as if they were adults even when they behave as children”
My mother died at the age of 97. I was always her child even when I was 62. When I was in my twenties, I may have resented that she still thought of me as a child. When I was in my late fifties she became like my child. I am an orphan now and at the age of 68 I would love being thought of as a child by my mother who loved me so much.

 

[DarkLight]

I would say: “I will behave as an adult even if I am treated as a child.”

“I will treat others as if they were adults even when they behave as children”

 My mother died at the age of 97.  I was always her child even when I was 62.  When I was in my twenties, I may have resented that she still thought of me as a child.  When I was in my late fifties she became like my child.  I am an orphan now and at the age of 68 I would love being thought of as a child by my mother who loved me so much.

Lovely, but I’d rather be able to reliably have a civil conversation and not routinely hear “how could you treat your mother this way?” for making decisions that are well within my own purview as an adult.

 

[HelenRose]

I did not have difficult parents at all but my niece has an extremely difficult father (my brother-in-law)

She came up with a solution that I thought was brilliant. When she visited him, she always mentioned to her father that she was on her way to an appointment of some kind. (which was not ever a lie, even if it was to have coffee with a friend) Then she would casually stay and visit with him as long as he was behaving. When the misery set in, she would look at her watch, jump up in dismay and say, “Oh my gosh, I have to go, I am late.” She would then rush out before he even had a chance to respond.

This is called “behavior conditioning”. Without realizing it, he started behaving himself.

This is what is meant by behaving as an adult.

Recognize the problem.
Analyze the problem .
Detach yourself from the drama.
Develop strategies to minimize the problems (this takes experimenting)

In other words do not play the childish games no matter how self vindicating they may be.

 

[DarkLight]

The difficulty for me is handling in-person interactions with a long-distance relationship. I feel like I’ve gotten better results on phone calls where I can actually hang up. But visits over distance require the purchasing of generally immoveable tickets, not to mention typically staying at their house (and I don’t have the spare money for a hotel). That puts certain limits on what I can do, since after all I have to sleep there and my suitcases are there. I don’t want to start a fight when I’ve got 3 days left before I go home, but I also don’t want to put up with bad behavior. And often it seems like my mother’s interpretation and even memory of what I said/did is very different - it can feel like talking in different languages sometimes.

 

[EasterJoy]

Lovely, but I’d rather be able to reliably have a civil conversation and not routinely hear “how could you treat your mother this way?” for making decisions that are well within my own purview as an adult.

The way it works is that you draw boundaries, she tests them, you don’t get disappointed-frustrated-put-down because you expected her to test them, and you don’t bite when she baits you. Instead, you respond in a way you have chosen to respond in advance. You think about the realistic alternatives in advance and you do what you have decided to do in a calm moment.

It is very hard to teach another adult with whom we have an intimate relationship that the terms have changed. It takes a lot of patience, and it requires realistic expectations. It helps to set realistic intermediate goals. Most importantly, though, it requires taking a course of action and sticking with it. The more often you teach them that they can wear you down, the more difficult it will be to teach them otherwise. They become like people who play the slot machines–confident that if they just poke enough nickels into the machine, they will win eventually. It will take a very long time to teach them that now their little girl means what she says and can’t be baited into pointless debates about it. Expect that those old “gamblers” will always feel a temptation to try their luck again. Your goal is to convince them that the machine isn’t paying out ever again, but humans have short memories! (You gotta laugh a little over this, or you will tear your hair out.)

Where is your father in all of this? Does he approve of the way your mother treats you? Does she treat him with respect? Can you discuss with him how you are going to handle this? If he is more reasonable, he can be an ally and help you with strategy. If not, then you may have to simply have to have shorter visits. When they ask why, you can tell them that you’ve tried to tell them how you wanted to be treated, they don’t accept that, and so you can’t stand to stick around for as long as you used to.

Have you ever watched Everybody Loves Raymond? If you haven’t, watch four or five episodes. Then ask yourself, “Why was this show popular for so long?” It is because you, my friend, are not alone. Do not expect total success. Expect little victories and boundaries that your mother is always going to test. If you get more, thank heaven for it, because you will be in the minority.

 

[revert_jen]

Visits are usually more than one day because of the cost of flying. Honestly it’s less about feeling like she’s won on either of our parts, and more the feeling on my part that she’ll see her victory as a sign to try harder. So something like “you may be right” tends to come back as “you said I was right, so now you’re obviously only not doing it out of rebellion.” That and she has a tendency to calmly ask no-win questions and keep at it, so I’m not always sure there’s anything conciliatory I can say.

The flight costs the same even for a one-day visit. But I didn’t mean that she should never see you in something she doesn’t like, just that having the one outfit shows that you’re not just being stubborn, but you’re still not going to let her make your decisions.

The proper answer to “you’re only not doing it out of rebellion” is “You may be right about the issue, but I just disagree, and since it’s also possible that you’re wrong, I’m going to follow my own judgement.” The most important part is the staying calm, and still being firm. “I understand your point of view, but it is something that adults can disagree on,” is another helpful phrase.

Also, if you pray while you’re talking to her, it will help you a lot. Smiling during times when you aren’t talking much is a good way to avoid the charge of sulking.

But it would be good if you didn’t just decide without trying it that everyone’s suggestions won’t work. Maybe they won’t, but you can’t really know until you try.

Its weird too, because I feel like the only thing she really respects is getting mad. Calm resistance and not engaging is met with confusion and accusations of sulking. Politely but firmly setting boundaries is met with her forgetting I ever said anything and then being upset when I set consequences because I “never said that.”

Set the boundaries in a letter. Keep a copy.

I still try not to do it, but it seems like the times I have gotten upset with her and said what I was thinking are the times I’ve usually seen an actual improvement in our relationship. So, say, telling her repeatedly that I didn’t want to hear about my wardrobe didn’t do anything, but getting mad and saying just once I’d like to get dressed in the morning without hearing you comment about how much you dislike my clothes actually got her to say, huh, I didn’t realize I was actually commenting that much.

Letting a child have its own way all the time “improves the relationship” in the sense that the child doesn’t go into a screaming fit. But in a real sense, it makes things much worse in the long run. The same is true of using anger with her. I’d advise against it.

–Jen

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I think the thing is it’s really just her I have this problem with. I pay my rent on time just fine. The times I’ve needed help have been pretty much all outside my control (see the previous post about health stuff). I do live on my own and take care of myself on my own. But it seems like still, there’s always some thing my mother latches on to that means I’m still “immature.” She has some hatred of my clothes because she sees my skirts and dark colors as childish, even though I get compliments when I wear them to work. And she cannot stand that I do not go to a church she approves of and still sees me as in rebellion and naive for it.

And it leads to when we have a disagreement, if I don’t handle something at work the way she wants, I feel like she defaults to saying I’m being immature if I want to handle my responsibilities my way instead of doing it her way. When that’s exactly the opposite really; I feel like what she sees as mature is my letting her interfere and doing things her way all the time, rather than taking responsibility on my own.

Edit: I should also mention I’m not the one bringing this stuff up. She’s the one bringing things up and then calling me childish for my responses, generally.

Like I said, I don’t know both sides of the story. However, I wanted to share some of my experiences to show that a parent telling their child to act like an adult isn’t always a meritless admonishment. I know that our son defends himself to others using a lot of the same arguments you do. Unfortunately, a lot of people take his side despite the glaring gaps in his side of the story. A lot of people jumped to his defense when they heard that we were overly critical of him his last semester in school even though he paid his own tuition and kept his grades up. (What he left out was that he paid his own tuition using $1000 of my money and “keeping his grades up” meant that he made a last-minute save in the two classes he nearly failed.) He also had a couple coworkers who complimented and applauded everything he did (right before they hit him up for money which they never repaid). The bulk of his life seemed to exist between the parentheses. I’m not trying to make accusations, but is it possible your mother has some valid concerns?

 

[EasterJoy]

Like I said, I don’t know both sides of the story. However, I wanted to share some of my experiences to show that a parent telling their child to act like an adult isn’t always a meritless admonishment. I know that our son defends himself to others using a lot of the same arguments you do. Unfortunately, a lot of people take his side despite the glaring gaps in his side of the story. A lot of people jumped to his defense when they heard that we were overly critical of him his last semester in school even though he paid his own tuition and kept his grades up. (What he left out was that he paid his own tuition using $1000 of my money and “keeping his grades up” meant that he made a last-minute save in the two classes he nearly failed.) He also had a couple coworkers who complimented and applauded everything he did (right before they hit him up for money which they never repaid). The bulk of his life seemed to exist between the parentheses. I’m not trying to make accusations, but is it possible your mother has some valid concerns?

When your adult child spreads half-truths, you can either correct them, let on that there is more to the story, or let people who want to jump to conclusions go ahead and take a leap.

When a fellow adult is rude or shows too little common sense, you don’t treat them like a child. You treat them like an adult with too little in the manners or common sense departments. There is a lot more biting your tongue and diplomacy required for the latter. As for relatives who hit you up for loans so they can make bad loans to their friends, the day comes to let them have their wish in the “adult” department, too. If their “childhood” is ending too soon for them, oh well.

When does that day come? It depends. It is usually too soon for someone’s liking and too late for someone else’s. It is not as if “adulthood” is a destination reached all at once. Still, it isn’t too much to ask to talk to a child over 18 as if he or she was making the same mistakes from 10 years down the line, even if you soften up and give them a little softer treatment.

 

[DarkLight]

Like I said, I don’t know both sides of the story. However, I wanted to share some of my experiences to show that a parent telling their child to act like an adult isn’t always a meritless admonishment. I know that our son defends himself to others using a lot of the same arguments you do. Unfortunately, a lot of people take his side despite the glaring gaps in his side of the story. A lot of people jumped to his defense when they heard that we were overly critical of him his last semester in school even though he paid his own tuition and kept his grades up. (What he left out was that he paid his own tuition using $1000 of my money and “keeping his grades up” meant that he made a last-minute save in the two classes he nearly failed.) He also had a couple coworkers who complimented and applauded everything he did (right before they hit him up for money which they never repaid). The bulk of his life seemed to exist between the parentheses. I’m not trying to make accusations, but is it possible your mother has some valid concerns?

Even if she did, I’m not sure that what she’s doing would be helping any. I am not asking her to give me money; I have accepted it from them but I have never asked in the last three years, even when I had serious bills to cover from unexpected medical problems. I am not asking her to do anything for me except to be respectful and polite. I have even made quite sure I don’t depend on her for anything lest the conditions be too much - something she seems to resent.

And many of her biggest concerns have not checked out. The wardrobe she so complains about is complimented and held up as an example of professionalism at work. My faith…she so bitterly complained when I left their church and 2 years later she was repeating the same lines about bullying and cliques back to me that she had called immature when I said them, with never any acknowledgement that I said them. Many others, such as the big fuss over work, seem to be based on her latching on to something she things I said and refusing to be corrected. She was simply factually wrong in that case and somehow I could never get that through without being accused of “making excuses”.

Honestly, given the number of things she acts like this over, even if she did have a point I wouldn’t be able to tell when she starts acting like it over silly things. Between the whole wardrobe deal and the stuff with church she’s lost a lot of my respect - and seeing her treat my father the same way doesn’t improve that.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Even if she did, I’m not sure that what she’s doing would be helping any. I am not asking her to give me money; I have accepted it from them but I have never asked in the last three years, even when I had serious bills to cover from unexpected medical problems. I am not asking her to do anything for me except to be respectful and polite. I have even made quite sure I don’t depend on her for anything lest the conditions be too much - something she seems to resent.

Fair enough. Like I said, we go through similar discussions with our son and the only time we reach any common ground is when he’s able to acknowledge that the things he’s doing just might be the reason these concerns come up.

EasterJoy:

When your adult child spreads half-truths, you can either correct them, let on that there is more to the story, or let people who want to jump to conclusions go ahead and take a leap.

When a fellow adult is rude or shows too little common sense, you don’t treat them like a child. You treat them like an adult with too little in the manners or common sense departments. There is a lot more biting your tongue and diplomacy required for the latter. As for relatives who hit you up for loans so they can make bad loans to their friends, the day comes to let them have their wish in the “adult” department, too. If their “childhood” is ending too soon for them, oh well.

We certainly strive to give him the adult treatment he thinks should be arbitrarily awarded to him, but when someone claims they want to be treated like an adult yet still act like a child, they shouldn’t be surprised at those times when others treat them as a child. His complaints don’t stem just from us but from plenty of other adults, especially those with some position of authority in his life. When he complained about his manager treating him like a child for no reason, those non-existent reasons were clocking out early, taking an extra ten minutes on every break, hiding in the break room playing on his phone, etc. When his professor treated him like a child for no reason, that non-existent reason was because, two weeks before the semester ended, he had not yet started work on the big project that made up 30% of his grade then blamed the teacher for not giving him daily reminders. As for the people who have complained about us treating him like a child, I can assure you that they squawk much louder when we treat him like an adult.

 

[DarkLight]

Fair enough. Like I said, we go through similar discussions with our son and the only time we reach any common ground is when he’s able to acknowledge that the things he’s doing just might be the reason these concerns come up.

In my case, the concern is that the “you’re immature” line of reasoning is preventing us from getting anywhere because it’s being substituted for actually engaging with any reasons I might have for why I make the choices I make. So for example, we can’t have an honest discussion on religion when I’m being treated as immature and rebellious for not going to the church my mother approves of, and for sticking to my guns on what Catholics believe rather than accepting what my mother says. And because I’m apparently so immature, there’s no reason for her to try to talk to me as an adult on the subject, rather than telling me I’m wrong and need to grow up already.

 

[Xantippe]

In my case, the concern is that the “you’re immature” line of reasoning is preventing us from getting anywhere because it’s being substituted for actually engaging with any reasons I might have for why I make the choices I make. So for example, we can’t have an honest discussion on religion when I’m being treated as immature and rebellious for not going to the church my mother approves of, and for sticking to my guns on what Catholics believe rather than accepting what my mother says. And because I’m apparently so immature, there’s no reason for her to try to talk to me as an adult on the subject, rather than telling me I’m wrong and need to grow up already.

You can save this for your mental dialogue with your mom (I’m not sure I’d say it out loud): “Because Lord knows that all mature adults in the United States of America go to your church.”

 

[EasterJoy]

In my case, the concern is that the “you’re immature” line of reasoning is preventing us from getting anywhere because it’s being substituted for actually engaging with any reasons I might have for why I make the choices I make. So for example, we can’t have an honest discussion on religion when I’m being treated as immature and rebellious for not going to the church my mother approves of, and for sticking to my guns on what Catholics believe rather than accepting what my mother says. And because I’m apparently so immature, there’s no reason for her to try to talk to me as an adult on the subject, rather than telling me I’m wrong and need to grow up already.

Pssstt…She is the one who has to engage you to give reasons for the choices you make and try to get you to approve of what she thinks, because they are your choices. You don’t have to have any discussion at all, unless you want her opinion, and until she treats you like an adult, there is no reason to solicit her opinion.

As in: “Mom, I am an adult. I decide what I believe and I decide where I am going to church. Since you can’t respect that, I don’t see any point in discussing it, so I’m not going to discuss it. If you want to talk about it, fly at it, but you’re going to find you are talking to yourself.” “What do you mean? I respect you!” “Well, you didn’t convince me. Sorry. No more discussion. I’m done.”

When she says, “I don’t understand why you can’t do ___________,” then you say, “Well, I tried to explain, but I’m tired of explaining, because all I get are arguments. I’m done with trying. I do what I do, and you’re going to have to get used to it, because you aren’t the chair on my decision-making committee any more, and your chances for persuading me are gone. Period. Go persuade Dad of something.”

 

[underacloud]

And because I’m apparently so immature, there’s no reason for her to try to talk to me as an adult on the subject, rather than telling me I’m wrong and need to grow up already.

So don’t have those arguments. Refuse to engage in argument unless she treats you like an adult.

As I said before, remain calm, and if needed walk away. Refuse to allow yourself to be treated badly.

You seem to be looking for things to say or ways to explain things to your mum. You can’t. You can only change her behaviour towards you by refusing to allow poor behaviour. If you only allow discussion on adult terms, you will only have adult discussions.

 

[EasterJoy]

So don’t have those arguments. Refuse to engage in argument unless she treats you like an adult.

As I said before, remain calm, and if needed walk away. Refuse to allow yourself to be treated badly.

You seem to be looking for things to say or ways to explain things to your mum. You can’t. You can only change her behaviour towards you by refusing to allow poor behaviour. If you only allow discussion on adult terms, you will only have adult discussions.

You don’t even need to walk away. You just don’t get into the “discussion.” She talks on and on, and you just look at her, like you’re waiting for the commercials to be over. "Are you about done? Good. I’m still not discussing it. Where shall we go for dinner? (Or “So what is little sister up to? Any good news from her?” or “So, how did that church dinner go that you were working on? Did you make your goal?”…)

 

[underacloud]

You don’t even need to walk away. You just don’t get into the “discussion.” She talks on and on, and you just look at her, like you’re waiting for the commercials to be over. "Are you about done? Good. I’m still not discussing it. Where shall we go for dinner? (Or “So what is little sister up to? Any good news from her?” or “So, how did that church dinner go that you were working on? Did you make your goal?”…)

Yes, that’s a good suggestion.

I say walk away if needed. I think for the OP, she may need to consider walking away at times as she may be too easily drawn into argument by her mother. If she can hold her tongue and not be drawn in, then standing ground and redirecting the conversation may be even better!

 

[DarkLight]

Yes, that’s a good suggestion.

I say walk away if needed. I think for the OP, she may need to consider walking away at times as she may be too easily drawn into argument by her mother. If she can hold her tongue and not be drawn in, then standing ground and redirecting the conversation may be even better!

My problem is that she seems to keep poking until she gets some reaction that “proves her right.” Even if I don’t engage, she’ll keep poking until she hits a sensitive spot, and she’ll be paying close attention to my non-verbal behavior as well.

I know I shouldn’t let her affect me so, but I don’t know how to not let it affect me. I don’t know how to not cry when she goes on at me about how she can’t believe I’m rejecting everything she taught me and she can’t understand where she went wrong.

I think I’m struggling in general to understand how do deal with my family. My parents aren’t abusive and I don’t feel like they’re not trying. I want to honor them and I want to have a relationship. But I also feel like my mother is quite often rude to me. And specifically I feel like she’s set it up so I can never be right if I disagree with her, and she’ll just keep pushing and making more effort if I try to cut back.

It’s like she still feels such a need to teach me and protect me, so she’s putting all her effort into that. And that’s exactly what I don’t need now.