"Act like an adult and you'll be treated like one"

[DarkLight]

You can save this for your mental dialogue with your mom (I’m not sure I’d say it out loud): “Because Lord knows that all mature adults in the United States of America go to your church.”

Unfortunately this is pretty close to the mindset. There are three types of people in the world for them - people who go to their church, people who haven’t heard, and people who are too in love with their own sins to go.

 

[underacloud]

My problem is that she seems to keep poking until she gets some reaction that “proves her right.” Even if I don’t engage, she’ll keep poking until she hits a sensitive spot, and she’ll be paying close attention to my non-verbal behavior as well.

So walk away. When you know she’s starting to get to you, remain calm, don’t engage on the topic, and if needed walk away.

But I also feel like my mother is quite often rude to me. And specifically I feel like she’s set it up so I can never be right if I disagree with her, and she’ll just keep pushing and making more effort if I try to cut back.

Do not allow her to be rude - walk away.

Do not disagree with her. Don’t even get into these discussions with her. Don’t engage. If needed, walk away.

Your problem, as I’ve suggested, is that you’re looking for a way to win these arguments with her. You can’t. The only tactic you can employ is to not enter these arguments.

 

[DarkLight]

So walk away. When you know she’s starting to get to you, remain calm, don’t engage on the topic, and if needed walk away.

Do not allow her to be rude - walk away.

Do not disagree with her. Don’t even get into these discussions with her. Don’t engage. If needed, walk away.

Your problem, as I’ve suggested, is that you’re looking for a way to win these arguments with her. You can’t. The only tactic you can employ is to not enter these arguments.

I guess I’m looking for an action that she won’t interpret as me being immature and difficult. Maybe I’m being silly, but it grates on me to walk away knowing that she’ll take it as proof positive that she’s won - and bring it up again. Look at how immature you were walking off like that! Just proves you’re wrong and not worth listening to, if you had actual reasons other than just being rebellious you’d have stayed.

 

[underacloud]

I guess I’m looking for an action that she won’t interpret as me being immature and difficult. Maybe I’m being silly, but it grates on me to walk away knowing that she’ll take it as proof positive that she’s won - and bring it up again. Look at how immature you were walking off like that! Just proves you’re wrong and not worth listening to, if you had actual reasons other than just being rebellious you’d have stayed.

Have you considered that you are being immature and difficult? Perhaps you mom is right? If she can so easily press all the right buttons to get the reactions out of you that she wants, and you can’t come up with any sort of coping mechanisms and resort to biting at her baits, then you are reinforcing her opinion of you.

So let’s consider what she says: “Act like an adult and you’ll be treated like one”

So what, in this scenario, does acting like an adult mean?

a) don’t bite. Adults (hopefully) don’t get caught into arguments they don’t want to have.

b) don’t tolerate rudeness. Adults do not let other adults treat them poorly. This means you either call them out on their rudeness, or you walk away.

c) do engage in calm and reasonable discussion. Adults are prepared to discuss things and see things from the other person’s perspective. It is only when the above lines are crossed that you need to cut things off. Perhaps you are too on gaurd and unwilling to have reasoned discussions from the very start, and so your mum baits you until you get drawn in? But even if this is not the case, be mindful of rewarding good behaviour - which means engaging with her when she is talking calmly and nicely to you.

In short, you need to re-train you mum. You a) reward good behaviour - engaging in reasoned discussion when she is being calm and respectful. And b) ignore bad behaviour - do not engage when she is baiting you or being rude. Employ these two tactics and over time your relationship will evolve and she will learn (even if it takes a long time) that you are perpared to discuss things with her, but only when she behaves herself.

 

[EasterJoy]

My problem is that she seems to keep poking until she gets some reaction that “proves her right.” Even if I don’t engage, she’ll keep poking until she hits a sensitive spot, and she’ll be paying close attention to my non-verbal behavior as well.

I know I shouldn’t let her affect me so, but I don’t know how to not let it affect me. I don’t know how to not cry when she goes on at me about how she can’t believe I’m rejecting everything she taught me and she can’t understand where she went wrong.

I think I’m struggling in general to understand how do deal with my family. My parents aren’t abusive and I don’t feel like they’re not trying. I want to honor them and I want to have a relationship. But I also feel like my mother is quite often rude to me. And specifically I feel like she’s set it up so I can never be right if I disagree with her, and she’ll just keep pushing and making more effort if I try to cut back.

It’s like she still feels such a need to teach me and protect me, so she’s putting all her effort into that. And that’s exactly what I don’t need now.

If she is that relentless about getting a rise out of you, she may not mean to be abusive, but that does not mean it is not social aggression. Just because somebody doesn’t think you should be offended because they make jokes at your expense doesn’t mean they aren’t doing you any harm or that you are “too sensitive.” Sometimes, it just means they are insensitive clods who don’t know when to quit.

You have to draw a line, and considering her track record, I wouldn’t give her three strikes before calling her out. That will just be giving her permission to get her two strikes in before she leaves you alone. You learn this with kids. Some are slow learners–you give that kind a gentle reminder, they apologize, and you don’t have to enforce any more than that. Some will take all the room you give them, and a few inches more–you clearly set up the boundaries and the natural consequences for crossing them, and you enforce those boundaries the first time there is an offense. Your mother has behaved her way into the latter group. Until she starts apologizing and really cleaning up her act and apologizing and making amends when you flag her for a boundary cross, mentally keep her there.

Do not visit her until you can afford to get yourself a cheap hotel room while you are there, because you are going to need it. If that isn’t available, or if you’d rather, then arrange to stay with a friend from your home town, instead. Honestly, I think going out with the friend every night to de-brief would be a great thing, if your friend is discrete and won’t embarrass your mom all over you circle of home-town acquaintances.

That will give you room to set boundaries and enforce them by walking out if you need to, because there is only so much you can do to enforce consequences on bad behavior by a host. Consider whether you need to do that. Otherwise, the next time she expects you to go home, don’t go. Tell her you’re taking a “time out” and you’ll be back when you’ve figured out how to cope with her relentless badgering. Then stick to your guns and don’t visit until the time after that. You’ll come back home having shown that you do have your limits. Adults have those, so it is a start.

 

[EasterJoy]

Have you considered that you are being immature and difficult? Perhaps you mom is right? If she can so easily press all the right buttons to get the reactions out of you that she wants, and you can’t come up with any sort of coping mechanisms and resort to biting at her baits, then you are reinforcing her opinion of you.

So let’s consider what she says: “Act like an adult and you’ll be treated like one”

So what, in this scenario, does acting like an adult mean?

a) don’t bite. Adults (hopefully) don’t get caught into arguments they don’t want to have.

b) don’t tolerate rudeness. Adults do not let other adults treat them poorly. This means you either call them out on their rudeness, or you walk away.

c) do engage in calm and reasonable discussion. Adults are prepared to discuss things and see things from the other person’s perspective. It is only when the above lines are crossed that you need to cut things off. Perhaps you are too on gaurd and unwilling to have reasoned discussions from the very start, and so your mum baits you until you get drawn in? But even if this is not the case, be mindful of rewarding good behaviour - which means engaging with her when she is talking calmly and nicely to you.

In short, you need to re-train you mum. You a) reward good behaviour - engaging in reasoned discussion when she is being calm and respectful. And b) ignore bad behaviour - do not engage when she is baiting you or being rude. Employ these two tactics and over time your relationship will evolve and she will learn (even if it takes a long time) that you are perpared to discuss things with her, but only when she behaves herself.

“Act like an adult, and I’ll treat you like one” applies to explaining why you won’t loan money to someone who doesn’t re-pay loans, why you don’t pay tuition for someone who doesn’t apply themselves academically, why you don’t loan cars that weren’t brought home on time and in good condition in the past, why you don’t let someone house-sit when they had a party and the police were called last time, why you don’t take them to places where decorum is required and they showed too little, and why you don’t invite other offenses against your trust. “Shame me once, shame on you. Shame me twice, shame on me.”

It does not apply when someone, even your mother, is lecturing you and you ask nothing of them except that they keep their unsolicited opinions to themselves. You don’t have to remain calm with that kind of person to be an adult, you don’t have to let them bait you endlessly without a reaction, you do not have to “discuss” decisions that rightly belong to you alone, and you certainly do not have to dance around to gain their good opinion. You tell them to cut it out and they are supposed to do it, because they are sticking their noses where their noses do not belong in the first place.

Adults are well-served by learning the tactics you are suggesting for difficult people, so don’t get me wrong about that! Those are all tactics that can be extremely useful. I mean to say that adults do not have to wait for some older family to deem them “adult enough” to be treated with respect. That is beyond the pale, and an adult does not have to choose to stand for it. They might choose to, but when they do, it is an act of generosity and indulgence towards the rude person, less than an act of “maturity.” Sometimes, indulgence can even be inappropriate or even a bit cowardly, like feeding them food that is bad for them just to avoid a hassle of refusing them whatever their whim dictates. Sometimes telling a rude relative that their days of rudeness are over takes a lot more maturity than dancing to their arbitrary tunes, that is for sure!

 

[DarkLight]

Thanks everyone.

I know I’ve posted on this a lot. And I’m no saint, I admit that. I rise to the bait when sometimes I shouldn’t. I say things sometimes that are meant to hurt her the way she hurts me. I’m not a perfect angel, sometimes I say and do things around her that I shouldn’t. I really struggle to deal with her and not say or do things with the purpose of hurting her back, or even just expressing how I feel to her in ways that aren’t helpful.

Boundaries are really hard with her. She has a certain way of doing things that often seems to skate close to the boundary you’ve set without ever quiiiiite obviously crossing it. She doesn’t yell, and she rarely says things that are obviously rude. Often discussions with her start out perfectly appropriate and end somewhere you never wanted to be, with your head swimming and wondering how on earth you got there.

One incident I remember about religion, for an example. Mom would approach me and quite calmly ask why I don’t believe a certain thing. I’d explain, and then she’d ask another question. I’d explain more and she’d have more questions. Often the questions would repeat or come down to just “I don’t get x because obviously y” when I don’t agree with y at all. The discussion would drag on and on until I finally found a way out. Often as it continued it would be more and more of her talking and less and less of me, but of course if I interrupted her or walked off while she was talking I was being rude (even if she’d been talking for 10min straight).

And then it would happen again - she’d approach me the next day with the same question about why I don’t believe the thing. And the next. And the next. And the next…you get the picture. If I said I didn’t want to talk about it then she’d ask well when could I talk and want a firm date and time. If I said we’d been over it she’d say she just didn’t think I had real reasons if I didn’t want to explain it. Or she’d cry and ask why I didn’t love her enough to explain my own views to her. But it all started out looking like a perfectly ok interaction, and it’s really hard to pin where it becomes a problem.

(I should mention as an aside, where my parents are living now is not where I grew up.)

 

[underacloud]

It does not apply when someone, even your mother, is lecturing you and you ask nothing of them except that they keep their unsolicited opinions to themselves.

This doesn’t strike me as an accurate reflection of what’s going on here. The OP continues to get drawn in to heated arguments, rather than merely being passively lectured at. The OP needs to stop being drawn in.

You don’t have to remain calm with that kind of person to be an adult, you don’t have to let them bait you endlessly without a reaction, you do not have to “discuss” decisions that rightly belong to you alone, and you certainly do not have to dance around to gain their good opinion. You tell them to cut it out and they are supposed to do it, because they are sticking their noses where their noses do not belong in the first place.

I have said nothing of trying to gain her mother’s good opinion. My suggestions are purely around establishing the boundaries that need to be set, and re-training the mother to work within those new parameters.

Certainly, if there are topics the OP does not wish to discuss, that should be made clear and stuck to, but it seems that it’s the manner of discussion that’s the issue, rather than the topics or content. It’s unreasonable and I’d suggest counterproductive to cut off conversation entirely. If mum needs to be re-trained, then there needs to be some positive reinforcement employed, which in this context seems to me to be the willingness to enter conversations when mum is behaving well.

 

[DarkLight]

This doesn’t strike me as an accurate reflection of what’s going on here. The OP continues to get drawn in to heated arguments, rather than merely being passively lectured at. The OP needs to stop being drawn in.

This isn’t really accurate.

(1) A lot of the problem is that I’m not getting drawn in, but I’m also not wanting to just walk off and it’s too much for me to just sit there listening to her. A lot of the problem is she’ll still read non-verbal signals that she’s getting under my skin and interpret that as vindication. Or she’ll get very upset and make a huge fuss about how I’m ignoring her and don’t love her because I won’t even talk to my own mother.

(2) When I do get drawn in, I’m almost always drawn in at the point where nothing unreasonable is going on. And as I mentioned last post, a lot of the time there’s no clear line where it crosses from appropriate to inappropriate, or if there is I don’t see it until afterwards. We’re dealing less with direct insults and more with things like monopolizing the conversation and covert jabs and often just wanting to go over and over and over the same things.

 

[underacloud]

One incident I remember about religion, for an example. Mom would approach me and quite calmly ask why I don’t believe a certain thing. I’d explain, and then she’d ask another question. I’d explain more and she’d have more questions. Often the questions would repeat or come down to just “I don’t get x because obviously y” when I don’t agree with y at all. The discussion would drag on and on until I finally found a way out. Often as it continued it would be more and more of her talking and less and less of me, but of course if I interrupted her or walked off while she was talking I was being rude (even if she’d been talking for 10min straight).

This doesn’t strike me as a real concern.

And then it would happen again - she’d approach me the next day with the same question about why I don’t believe the thing. And the next. And the next. And the next…you get the picture. If I said I didn’t want to talk about it then she’d ask well when could I talk and want a firm date and time. If I said we’d been over it she’d say she just didn’t think I had real reasons if I didn’t want to explain it. Or she’d cry and ask why I didn’t love her enough to explain my own views to her. But it all started out looking like a perfectly ok interaction, and it’s really hard to pin where it becomes a problem.

This is where it is concerning. You need to nip it in the bud straight away. eg…

“We talked about that at length yesterday and I have nothing to add at this time”

“I could try to find a book or article that could explain this better for you than I am able to”

“I don’t expect you to agree with or even understand my beliefs, but I expect you to respect that they are mine to have”

When it comes to religious arguments, I think the best tactic is to direct her to sources rather than try to explain it yourself. Unless you are a tertiary educated Catholic apologist, you are simply not going to be able to adequately defend your faith. You can share it yes, but not defend it. That’s why we have apologists and that’s where directing her to sources will help deflect the attack.

 

[Xantippe]

This isn’t really accurate.

(1) A lot of the problem is that I’m not getting drawn in, but I’m also not wanting to just walk off and it’s too much for me to just sit there listening to her. A lot of the problem is she’ll still read non-verbal signals that she’s getting under my skin and interpret that as vindication. Or she’ll get very upset and make a huge fuss about how I’m ignoring her and don’t love her because I won’t even talk to my own mother.

(2) When I do get drawn in, I’m almost always drawn in at the point where nothing unreasonable is going on. And as I mentioned last post, a lot of the time there’s no clear line where it crosses from appropriate to inappropriate, or if there is I don’t see it until afterwards. We’re dealing less with direct insults and more with things like monopolizing the conversation and covert jabs and often just wanting to go over and over and over the same things.

I don’t see any benefit from you going to visit your parents at this point.

As I think Easter Joy suggested, wait until you have enough money that you can fund a cheap motel room when/if things go bad.

You’ve mentioned that your phone conversations have been more successful. I bet that’s because you have way more walkaway power on the phone. Once you are able to leave at will whenever you want, I think you’ll find your visits becoming more successful.

Don’t talk religion with her, especially the sort of rabbit hole conversations you’ve described. If she’s interested in a topic, point her to a book or a website. All done!

 

[underacloud]

This isn’t really accurate.

(1) A lot of the problem is that I’m not getting drawn in, but I’m also not wanting to just walk off and it’s too much for me to just sit there listening to her. A lot of the problem is she’ll still read non-verbal signals that she’s getting under my skin and interpret that as vindication. Or she’ll get very upset and make a huge fuss about how I’m ignoring her and don’t love her because I won’t even talk to my own mother.

(2) When I do get drawn in, I’m almost always drawn in at the point where nothing unreasonable is going on. And as I mentioned last post, a lot of the time there’s no clear line where it crosses from appropriate to inappropriate, or if there is I don’t see it until afterwards. We’re dealing less with direct insults and more with things like monopolizing the conversation and covert jabs and often just wanting to go over and over and over the same things.

My apologies, I certainly did have the wrong impression.

Yes, it seems like your mother is more sutble than I had inferred. Certainly, that makes it more difficult.

But, the general principle remains. Once you realise that you are in a conversation that you do not enjoy and want out of, that’s the time to do something about it. You may not recognise where the line has been crossed, but once you recognise that it has been crossed, you have every right to back off.

My dad and I have learned this over the years. There are topics we shouldn’t discuss because we find ourselves in an argument that isn’t doing anyone any favours. Thankfully now one of us will usually realise this and sutbly back off. Try to learn the art of seeing the others perspective without ceding to it. eg “I can see what you’re saying. I’ll look into it further”. or even, when neccessary, “I think we’ll have to agree to disagree at this point”. Whereas past arguments would see my dad and I getting irate with each other and neither of us prepared to back off, now we both see where things are going are have the sense to cool it off.

It used to bug me that there were certain topics dad wouldn’t discuss with me. Then over time I recognised that he avoided those arguments for a good reason, and it was charitable of him. In your case, it seems you will have to take on the more adult role and find ways to cool of arguments before they get past a certain point.

 

[DarkLight]

Don’t talk religion with her, especially the sort of rabbit hole conversations you’ve described. If she’s interested in a topic, point her to a book or a website. All done!

Yeah, a lot of times it’s really hard to stay away from things. So I’ve said I don’t want to talk religion. But what’s more likely is we’ll start talking about stuff we’ve been doing lately. Then mom will start talking about a church dinner and how everyone enjoyed that one family recipe. And then how it’s so nice to see families at church, and isn’t it wonderful watching kids following in their parents footsteps, and she’s been talking to the pastor about why some kids leave their faith, and there was this one guy who left because he was angry at God but he’s back now and he’s not depressed anymore…

That’s usually about where I realize this has gone on way farther than I’m willing to go. It’s pretty clearly turned into a passive-aggressive lecture about how if I’d just come back everything would be solved - on something I’ve already said I don’t want to talk about. And I feel like running out the door screaming. What I’d really like to do is stop things before we get to that point.

 

[Xantippe]

Yeah, a lot of times it’s really hard to stay away from things. So I’ve said I don’t want to talk religion. But what’s more likely is we’ll start talking about stuff we’ve been doing lately. Then mom will start talking about a church dinner and how everyone enjoyed that one family recipe. And then how it’s so nice to see families at church, and isn’t it wonderful watching kids following in their parents footsteps, and she’s been talking to the pastor about why some kids leave their faith, and there was this one guy who left because he was angry at God but he’s back now and he’s not depressed anymore…

**“That’s really great mom! I think it’s great when Jehovah’s Witnesses stay Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons stay Mormon and Westboro Baptists stay Westboro Baptist and Branch Davidians stay Branch Davidian, etc. It would have been great if Martin Luther stayed Catholic like his mom and dad, too.” (Not seriously intended for use on mom–just a possible mental loop for you to play for yourself.)

Alternately, “It’s really too bad that Rick Warren’s son didn’t attend your church.”

religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/17/rick-warren-speaks-out-on-sons-suicide/**

(That’s another one that’s not really for actual use on mom.)

That’s usually about where I realize this has gone on way farther than I’m willing to go. It’s pretty clearly turned into a passive-aggressive lecture about how if I’d just come back everything would be solved - on something I’ve already said I don’t want to talk about. And I feel like running out the door screaming. What I’d really like to do is stop things before we get to that point.

I don’t think you can. Your mom is presumably planning these “conversations” well in advance and she knows exactly where she wants them to lead.

 

[underacloud]

I don’t think you can. Your mom is presumably planning these “conversations” well in advance and she knows exactly where she wants them to lead.

She may even be getting coaching from her minister and others in her church.

 

[DarkLight]

It would have been great if Martin Luther stayed Catholic like his mom and dad, too

ROFL!!! I will have to remember that one! I doubt she’s planning them, she’s always had a tendency to just go off on some topic for ages when something reminds her of it. Most of the time it’s just one of those things, like when she goes off for 20min on can you believe how the doctor’s office staff treated her? It’s just these specific things where it’s just jab after jab…she’s the sort of person who “tells it how she sees it” whether or not it needs saying at all.

 

[maryjk]

I don’t see any benefit from you going to visit your parents at this point.

As I think Easter Joy suggested, wait until you have enough money that you can fund a cheap motel room when/if things go bad.

This is hands down the best advice on the thread.

Sometimes you simply cannot deal with unreasonable people.

 

[EasterJoy]

This doesn’t strike me as an accurate reflection of what’s going on here. The OP continues to get drawn in to heated arguments, rather than merely being passively lectured at. The OP needs to stop being drawn in.

I have said nothing of trying to gain her mother’s good opinion. My suggestions are purely around establishing the boundaries that need to be set, and re-training the mother to work within those new parameters.

Certainly, if there are topics the OP does not wish to discuss, that should be made clear and stuck to, but it seems that it’s the manner of discussion that’s the issue, rather than the topics or content. It’s unreasonable and I’d suggest counterproductive to cut off conversation entirely. If mum needs to be re-trained, then there needs to be some positive reinforcement employed, which in this context seems to me to be the willingness to enter conversations when mum is behaving well.

There is a saying I am fond of: If you put even the Easter Bunny into a cage and poke it with a stick enough times, it will eventually bite you. So when you say, “Have you considered that you are being immature and difficult? Perhaps you mom is right? If she can so easily press all the right buttons to get the reactions out of you that she wants, and you can’t come up with any sort of coping mechanisms and resort to biting at her baits, then you are reinforcing her opinion of you,” what you could be implying is that someone who is suffering from bullying is somehow “inviting it.” No. There are ways to deter bullies, but the victim does not deserve to be bullied, and the bully has no room to say, in essence, “If you don’t want me to victimize you, quit acting like a victim.” That is out of bounds–totally obnoxious, I think you will agree–and deserves no defense.

If the mother isn’t going to grant a request by her daughter because it represents putting her daughter in a position of trust that her daughter doesn’t deserve, and her daughter protests that she is not being “treated like an adult,” then sure, the “I’ll treat you like an adult when you act like one” admonishment could easily be a mild way of stating the situation fairly. If, OTOH, the mother is saying that she has some right to treat her daughter in a disrespectful way because her daughter is not “adult” enough to deserve polite treatment, that is out of bounds.

Now, to the extent you are saying “hey, your mom is a bully, let’s get realistic, there are ways to deal with bullies,” then yes, I can agree that sometimes a victim of aggression has to learn how to counter what is unjust aggression. That shouldn’t be the victim’s job, but sometimes that is the way it is. Yes, I can agree with that realistic appraisal of the situation. What I mean to clarify, I guess I ought to say, is that it is not the OPs fault that she has to go through this. She does not deserve to be bullied. No one has that right, including her mother. Is that a better way to put it…because I don’t think we really disagree, do we?

 

[EasterJoy]

ROFL!!! I will have to remember that one! I doubt she’s planning them, she’s always had a tendency to just go off on some topic for ages when something reminds her of it. Most of the time it’s just one of those things, like when she goes off for 20min on can you believe how the doctor’s office staff treated her? It’s just these specific things where it’s just jab after jab…she’s the sort of person who “tells it how she sees it” whether or not it needs saying at all.

Oh, yes, we all know someone who is channeling the same corner of Purgatory that comes out of the mouth of your mother! Heaven help us, sometimes it is one of us!! (All that wisdom, you know, sometimes it seems such a shame to waste it!)

Maybe you can look up one of the many paintings of the Martyrdom of St. Erasmus, and think of that while your mom goes on and on–St. Erasmus had his intestines wound out onto a drum, a slow and endless agony–because it is not really sacrilegious to think that maybe St. Erasmus would rather go quick with the intestine thing than to have your mother talk his ear off year after year after year. (OK, maybe a little, but if it helps you to be more patient, he’d say “go for it,” I am sure.)

 

[underacloud]

because I don’t think we really disagree, do we?

Um, no. I don’t think we do.

I think you misunderstand what I meant in what I said - it was more of a challenge to the OP than a defence of the mother. It is a challenge to the OP to see that she should change the way she interacts with her mother. To no longer act as she used to - as mother and child engaged in back and forth argument. To now act as an adult - who chooses when and how to have discussions.

And rest assured if the mother was reading this thread, I’d have many choice words for her. But we’re only talking to the OP, and so hopefully we can help her find tactics to deal with her mother, whether she’s appropriately characterised as a bully or is simply a typical mother who struggles to deal with the changing relationship with a child who has become an adult (I suspect the truth lies between these extremes).