po18guy
Well-known member
The 72 were sent out. Since all received teaching directly from Christ, were not all Apostles?
Christ’s peace.
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Christ’s peace.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Yes the 72 Disciples were “Sent Out”. But the Twelve were always “The Twelve”, even according to Saul. The only variance is Judas was replaced by Matthias.
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juliamajor
Guest
They doubt for good reason.1.John would have been ancient at the time and many scholars and historians believe that john died in the first wave of persecutions. 2.if John wrote the letters and the gospel and revelation why is the Greek, and syntax so widely different. 3. the theology is Different John’s gospel is so loved filled and so replete with images of christ as suffering servant that the stark differences with revelation isobvious .Revelation is apocalyptic and filled with apocalyptic images. While gospels always contain some apocalyptic images nothing comes close to revelation. Unless john was having areally bad day the chances that he wrote Revelation is slim to none. Stay Safe over there!!
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rwoehmke
Guest
The “Twelve Apostles” which were made up of the eleven plus Mattias to replace Judas is important because the Church was to be the “New Israel” with “tribes” descending from the twelve just as the twelve tribes of Israel descended from the twelve sons of Jacob. Pentecost was the birth of the Church, the “New Israel” and it was significant and important that there be twelve apostles.
I think Marsh is reading more into Acts 1 than is there. Jesus tells the eleven to stay or wait if you will in Jerusalem for the coming of the Holy Spirit. He did not tell them “do nothing while you wait.”
As far as we Catholics are concerned we are born again by water and the Holy Spirit at Baptism. The Holy Spirit indwells us and gifts us with his seven fold gifts as listed in Isaiah 11. No knowledgeable Catholic would deny that his salvation is entirely dependent on Jesus, but it doesn’t just stop there. In Baptism and when we sin mortally after being restored by the Sacrament of Penance we are not filthy rags or trash, we have been washed clean by the “Blood of the Lamb” and filled with grace that makes us able to share in the divine life of the Holy Trinity. I don’t know how much more personal a relation with Jesus can be.
That is not to say that one cannot come into an intense experience of that relationship which may be allow a human being to feel what is already real. Some call that experience as being born again or being baptized in the Holy Spirit which as I have already stated is only a human experience of something that already exists.
I think Marsh is reading more into Acts 1 than is there. Jesus tells the eleven to stay or wait if you will in Jerusalem for the coming of the Holy Spirit. He did not tell them “do nothing while you wait.”
As far as we Catholics are concerned we are born again by water and the Holy Spirit at Baptism. The Holy Spirit indwells us and gifts us with his seven fold gifts as listed in Isaiah 11. No knowledgeable Catholic would deny that his salvation is entirely dependent on Jesus, but it doesn’t just stop there. In Baptism and when we sin mortally after being restored by the Sacrament of Penance we are not filthy rags or trash, we have been washed clean by the “Blood of the Lamb” and filled with grace that makes us able to share in the divine life of the Holy Trinity. I don’t know how much more personal a relation with Jesus can be.
That is not to say that one cannot come into an intense experience of that relationship which may be allow a human being to feel what is already real. Some call that experience as being born again or being baptized in the Holy Spirit which as I have already stated is only a human experience of something that already exists.
po18guy
Well-known member
Because the bible is incomplete. Since it is incomplete, how could it ever have been intended to be the sole rule of faith? “Bible” does not appear in scripture. “Church” sure does. It begins with Matthew 16:18 in which Christ founds His church on Cepha. It ismentioned elsewhere in Matthew, and several times in Acts. Apostolic succession was the only way in which the faith could be spread to “all nations”, since that had not yet occurred.
Christ’s peace.
I
Ignatius
Guest
A successor was chosen for him and for each of the Apostles.
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dacoobob
Guest
Of course, since old people are after all incapable of receiving a vision or dictating a book.
Differences in Greek style are easily accounted for by assuming (quite reasonably I think) that different scribes assisted him in translating/dictating different documents.
Unless, of course, both his Gospel and the Revelation were inspired by the Spirit and were not John’s own inventions.
The implicitly and pervasively materialistic/atheistic worldviews of most Bible scholars never cease to amaze and depress me.
J
jcrichton
Guest
***Hi, juliamajor!They doubt for good reason.1.John would have been ancient at the time and many scholars and historians believe that john died in the first wave of persecutions. 2.if John wrote the letters and the gospel and revelation why is the Greek, and syntax so widely different. 3. the theology is Different John’s gospel is so loved filled and so replete with images of christ as suffering servant that the stark differences with revelation isobvious .Revelation is apocalyptic and filled with apocalyptic images. While gospels always contain some apocalyptic images nothing comes close to revelation. Unless john was having areally bad day the chances that he wrote Revelation is slim to none. Stay Safe over there!!
…scholars are a funny bunch, aren’t they? Have you ever watched a "latest-Biblical-discovery program from a PBS, Science, History Channel (Eastern USA)? They promote the program as Bible this or Jesus that or some other… all the while insinuating that there will be serious labor in seeking the truth–almost from the very beginning you find out that their intent is to be “the man” (yes even if it’s a female) who finally put the Bible to rest (Bible wrong! = no God!).
How about Paul’s writings? Do you see any problem with them?–he too is a funny character, he closes some of his work with “by my own hand” or something to that fact while in reality someone else is doing the writing. :bigyikes:
I know that I am super slow when it comes to language and all those great technical do-das… but do you really think that the writer (be it John or a disciple of his) intended to write another Gospel?
The Apocalypse is not meant to be as the Gospels so its contents cannot simply fall in-line with the Gospels or the various Epistles. Wikipedia defines it this way:
Apocalypse (Greek: Ἀποκάλυψις -translit. apoca’lipsis, meaning literally: the lifting of the veil), is a term applied to the disclosure to certain privileged persons of something hidden from the majority of humankind. Today the term is often used to mean “End of planet Earth”, which may be a shortening of the phrase apokalupsis eschaton which literally means “revelation at the end of the æon, or age”.***
What I find interesting about John’s Gospel is that unlike the other Gospels his exalts Jesus as God in a manner that discloses a very personal revelation: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word is God!”
Also, atypical of the other Gospels, John’s introduces the indwelling of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit not just in the immediate environment of the Believers (as God among us) but in the Believers themselves: John reveals that God does not only move among us but also in us, coincidentally in the form of the Holy Trinity!
Maran atha!
Angel
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juliamajor
Guest
my,my-aren’t we just a bit judgmental.-now i’m an atheist-that’s news to me.Most times I’m accused of being a religious ‘fanatic’…John of Patmos never identifies himself with the apostle John- if he was wouldn’t that help in the pedigree of the Apocalypse? If the scribes were so sloppy as to almost completely change the good greek of the Gospel of John to the really lousy Greek of Revelation- wouldn’t that put in jeopardy, and wouldn’t that be a reason to question the integrity of the scripture and it’s translation? Johannine gospel and epistles are obviously written by the same person we don’t have the same assurance with Revelation. Would the writing of Revelation by John of Patmos instead of john the Evangelist make it any less inspired.? would it make it less important?God still is ultimately the author-isn’t He? even if it were written by Sam of Hoboken -it would still be inspired.the apostles in their humility didn’t put their names on their works-why- because the message was more important-the message should be our primary concern.amazing to me that some people worry about the writer but don’t worry about the message God was inspiring him with.Of course, since old people are after all incapable of receiving a vision or dictating a book. Differences in Greek style are easily accounted for by assuming (quite reasonably I think) that different scribes assisted him in translating/dictating different documents.
Unless, of course, both his Gospel and the Revelation were inspired by the Spirit and were not John’s own inventions.
The implicitly and pervasively materialistic/atheistic worldviews of most Bible scholars never cease to amaze and depress me.
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dacoobob
Guest
I certainly didn’t mean to call **you **an atheist. Sorry if you got that impression.
Why would its “pedigree” need boosting?
No. Why would it? As you say, the message should be our primary concern.
You’e right, it wouldn’t change much if it could be proven that it there were different authors for the Johannine works. I don’t think it has been so proven.
My my, who’s just a bit judgmental? Apparently I’m unconcerned with God’s message now…amazing to me that some people worry about the writer but don’t worry about the message God was inspiring him with.
Seriously though juliamajor, I apologize once again if I offended you… my beef is with those scholars who gleefully strive to “debunk” any and all traditional attributions/interpretations for the sheer intellectual joy of destruction.
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juliamajor
Guest
actually i don’t watch or concern myself with the self promoters on TV.Jesu seminar is a perfect example of self promotion so that all the media types-if the have a bible query don’t go to mainliane scripture folks but to these bozos.-They like the attention and they make money on it. Paul - not so much controversy-his orinal letters were probably written by a scribe-maybe even Timothy or other of his traveling companions and signed them in his own name to autheticate them Pretty sharp.One of the episles that is in doubt is"letter to the Hebrews" but even in the distant pastthere was a question about it. if you look at your bible and paul’s letter- they are ranked according to length- longest epistle first- shortest at the end.Hebrews is not ranked like that because early on it’s pedigree was questioned but that didn’t stop it from being included in the canon.(Even though some ECF didn’t want it in the canon because of it’s non-pedigree)Others found it to be inspired no matter who wrote it.
john of Patmos I don’t believe wanted to write anything but what he wrote. he was concerned about his vision and about the seven churchesa and boosting upthe christians who were being hunted.
The apocalypse like the other genres in the bible all have their place and are meant to be read as such. (you don’t read a wisdom book like a poetry, or historical etc.)From daniel through the intertestamental period and beyond vasts numbers of apocalypse were written.They have vivid scary imagery and undefined nebulous prophecies.Usually written as messages of hope to the oppressed Jews and christians assuring them that in the end everything will turn out right. No mater how tough God will correct the situation and the righteous will prevail. JJohn’s gospel has always been my favorite. it’s theology is advanced Christology, 'it’s prose is elegant and well written and the beauty of God’s love for us and the redemptive suffering of Christ cannot be more eloquently described. a theological and poetic masterpiece and the gospel that has the most commentaries written about it! Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus Come!
J
juliamajor
Guest
I certainly didn’t mean to call **you **an atheist. Sorry if you got that impression.
Why would its “pedigree” need boosting?
No. Why would it? As you say, the message should be our primary concern.
You’e right, it wouldn’t change much if it could be proven that it there were different authors for the Johannine works. I don’t think it has been so proven.
My my, who’s just a bit judgmental? Apparently I’m unconcerned with God’s message now…
Seriously though juliamajor, I apologize once again if I offended you… my beef is with those scholars who gleefully strive to “debunk” any and all traditional attributions/interpretations for the sheer intellectual joy of destruction.
po18guy
Well-known member
Good point. So it is with apologetics - it can completely replace faith, if allowed. I appreciate much more the practice of the faith than the explanation of it, but somebody has to do the evangelizing!The implicitly and pervasively materialistic/atheistic worldviews of most Bible scholars never cease to amaze and depress me.
Christ’s peace, brother.
J
jcrichton
Guest
***Hi, juliamajor!
Thank you for this clarification… I misunderstood your previous post!
JJohn’s gospel has always been my favorite. it’s theology is advanced Christology, 'it’s prose is elegant and well written and the beauty of God’s love for us and the redemptive suffering of Christ cannot be more eloquently described. a theological and poetic masterpiece and the gospel that has the most commentaries written about it! Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus Come!
Ditto! I believe it to be the most powerful–too many times people forget that there is that Command of humle obedience and that our Salvation proceeds from Christ’s Passion and Death; they superimpose this auto salvation and unrequired and mandatory love of God for man blinding themselves to the Sacrifice and the devotion of the Word who for our sake came to His own only to be rejected in order that Yahweh’s Salvific Plan would take full effect as both Jews and Gentiles are offered Salvation through the Lamb of God!
Maran atha!
Angel
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