Actual boundary setting phrases and conduct?

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…Another alternative is this:
Your mom: Don’t you have any blue jeans?
You: Why do you ask?
Your mom: Because if you don’t wear blue jeans the sky will fall, the rain will turn to blood, and you’ll starve in the streets in a matter of days!
You: I appreciate that you’re worried about me, but you shouldn’t be. Discussions on the subject of my wardrobe never end well, so it’s not an available topic of conversation. I’m changing the subject. How’re Aunt Marcy and her twenty-seven cats?
Your mom: How am I supposed to know what I can talk to you about? You’re always so touchy!
You, still calmly and pleasantly, with a smile: I’ll be certain to let you know if a topic is off-limits. Let’s get that banana bread in the oven, shall we?
Her: You can’t just change the subject like that! You’re being disrespectful by not letting me use you as an emotional punching bag!
You: I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m going for a walk now; I’ll see you later on.
exit stage right
I like this approach. Assuming you’ve already told her that you are setting new conversational boundaries, you could even be simpler:
Mom: Don’t you have any blue jeans?
Me: No.
Mom: Really? Isn’t it time you grew out of this all black phase?
Me: We’ve don’t need to go over this again. So how about the weather/those Mets/Aunt Marcy’s cats?
Mom: I just can’t believe you’re still dressing so strangely! You know if an employer sees you around town in that stuff you’re not going to be able to keep a job. They’ll think you’re too immature. Isn’t it time you grew up?
Me: As I was saying…how about that weather/those Mets/Aunt Marcy’s cats?
Mom: How dare you talk to me that way! You don’t get to tell me what to do…
Me (interrupting)… Ohhhkaaayyy, clearly we can’t talk right now. walk out of room
The basic flaw in your original posting of this scenario is that you made your point (“we don’t need to go over this again”) and then waited for her to respond. She had to say something back, so naturally it was going to be an argument. So the key to setting the boundary is taking control of the conversation by not pausing after your point or giving her the opportunity to respond to it - after all, the boundaries aren’t up for discussion are they? So make your statement of “we’re not talking about this,” and then move right on the the change of topic. Give it 2 tries, and if your change of topic is not respected, your 3rd response can be to end the conversation altogether.
 
I didn’t recap everything I’ve written in previous threads. But the tl;dr version: we’ve been having issues with boundaries for some time. At this point my impression is that I’m dealing with someone who simply doesn’t want to respect boundaries, and won’t do so unless they are firmly enforced. It’s not a communication problem - it’s the problem of getting a parent to recognize that boundaries are where they are, and following them is a requirement for a continued relationship.

At this point, I’ve tried talking things out. And it’s become clear to me that the point of the discussions about boundaries and what is and isn’t allowed, isn’t actually to work out where the boundaries are for the relationship. It’s to try to pressure me into giving up and allowing the status quo to persist. That’s why I don’t want to keep explaining or arguing about what actually is going on - because at this point it’s just turned into a litany of excuses for why I’m being so unfair for actually enforcing the boundaries. (Sheesh, I feel like I’m the mother here.)

So in the clothing example - we might very well be dealing with a case where I’d said, look, I don’t want to hear any more criticism about my clothing. And of course the next time it comes up it’s not criticism, it’s an honest opinion. And the time after that she forgot. And the time after that she acts like she can’t even tell me I have food on my shirt because I said no criticizing my clothing. And the time after that I’m being unreasonable because she’s just so worried about me and I’ll never be able to manage looking like that…

Ok probably not all those back to back, but those have all happened repeatedly.
 
I didn’t recap everything I’ve written in previous threads. But the tl;dr version: we’ve been having issues with boundaries for some time. At this point my impression is that I’m dealing with someone who simply doesn’t want to respect boundaries, and won’t do so unless they are firmly enforced. It’s not a communication problem - it’s the problem of getting a parent to recognize that boundaries are where they are, and following them is a requirement for a continued relationship.
Well, this is your mother you’re talking about, and this changes things.
This is not to say that parents have the right to treat their children poorly and that children must endure it.
A parent isn’t some random person or stranger, so different principles of conduct apply.
 
Here’s how it would go in my case:

Mom: Don’t you have any blue jeans?

Me: Sure, but I don’t feel like wearing them today.

Mom: Really? Isn’t it time you grew out of this all black phase?

Me: You should see what I wear when I go to my Star Trek fan club meetings! 🙂

Mom: I just can’t believe you’re still dressing so strangely! You know if an employer sees you around town in that stuff you’re not going to be able to keep a job. They’ll think you’re too immature. Isn’t it time you grew up?

Me: Well, actually, I won the last two costume contests at work, and there was actual prize money involved. The categories I won were “Most Original” and “Star Trek.” And then there are the “casual days” we have, would you like to hear about how I dress then? 🙂

Mom: How dare you talk to me that way! You don’t get to tell me what to do. You know the Bible says to honor your father and mother - that doesn’t mean you get to be rude. begins lecture/rant.

Me: And this is why I prefer to honor you from a good, safe distance, as well as limit our contact. Oh, look at the time … I really need to go now.
So a (roughly) actual example:

Mom: Don’t you have any blue jeans?

Me: No.

Mom: Really? Isn’t it time you grew out of this all black phase?

Me: We’ve don’t need to go over this again.

Mom: I just can’t believe you’re still dressing so strangely! You know if an employer sees you around town in that stuff you’re not going to be able to keep a job. They’ll think you’re too immature. Isn’t it time you grew up?

Me: This isn’t up for discussion.

Mom: How dare you talk to me that way! You don’t get to tell me what to do. You know the Bible says to honor your father and mother - that doesn’t mean you get to be rude. begins lecture/rant
 
I didn’t recap everything I’ve written in previous threads. But the tl;dr version: we’ve been having issues with boundaries for some time. At this point my impression is that I’m dealing with someone who simply doesn’t want to respect boundaries, and won’t do so unless they are firmly enforced. It’s not a communication problem - it’s the problem of getting a parent to recognize that boundaries are where they are, and following them is a requirement for a continued relationship.

At this point, I’ve tried talking things out. And it’s become clear to me that the point of the discussions about boundaries and what is and isn’t allowed, isn’t actually to work out where the boundaries are for the relationship. It’s to try to pressure me into giving up and allowing the status quo to persist. That’s why I don’t want to keep explaining or arguing about what actually is going on - because at this point it’s just turned into a litany of excuses for why I’m being so unfair for actually enforcing the boundaries. (Sheesh, I feel like I’m the mother here.)

So in the clothing example - we might very well be dealing with a case where I’d said, look, I don’t want to hear any more criticism about my clothing. And of course the next time it comes up it’s not criticism, it’s an honest opinion. And the time after that she forgot. And the time after that she acts like she can’t even tell me I have food on my shirt because I said no criticizing my clothing. And the time after that I’m being unreasonable because she’s just so worried about me and I’ll never be able to manage looking like that…

Ok probably not all those back to back, but those have all happened repeatedly.
OK, so she doesn’t tell you that you have food on your shirt. Sure, Mom, if that means you’re going to lay off being my personal “What Not To Wear” commentator, I’ll live with that. I’m not buying that you’re quite that incapable of figuring out what I want, but sure.

You are very right–this is not about your clothing. It is a power struggle, which is what parents have with children, rather rarely what adults who respect each other have with each other.

You also have to ask yourself when the ante has gotten so high that you’re done. She doesn’t think you can call her.

This is what Miss Manners says when someone makes a rude or inappropriate remark: I beg your pardon? That is the offender’s shot across the bow. At “oops, I forgot,” you say, “Now…what was I saying? I think I was talking about my new job.” Then you talk about acceptable topics. If that works, great.

But let us say she doesn’t stop. She says, “how I am supposed to remember not to make innocent remarks?” You say, “You’re a smart lady. Keep practicing, you’ll get it.” Then she says, “Well, you have to admit that black is not your color.” And you say, “OK, that was not an oops. Enough. See you later!” And you leave, even though she follows you out the door harping on what a terrible person you are. Inside, congratulate yourself.

At “well, it is the truth” or “well, it is my opinion, and I have a right to have an opinion” you say, “I will thank you to keep your opinions to yourself.” Then she says, “Well, I can’t just sit here and watch you ruin your life” you say, “OK, then you don’t have to watch me, that’s going to have to be our compromise: You keep voicing your opinions, and I stay somewhere out of earshot. Everyone is happy. See you later, Mom.” And then you leave.

Yes, congratulate yourself, and expect a lot of one-step-forward-one-back-two-forward-three-back-two-forward-one-more-forward-will-this-ever-end. Rome was not built in a day. Lots of fits and starts.

Otherwise, one day you just say, “Life is too short for this nonsense. Mom, about six months from now, if you want to get real about laying off, call me. I won’t be coming back on my own for awhile, and I won’t be answering phone calls. I have really had it. I seriously need a rest. Bye.” And maybe some day you cut off social calls because they aren’t ever social. Sometimes, you have to do that.
 
So in the clothing example - we might very well be dealing with a case where I’d said, look, I don’t want to hear any more criticism about my clothing. And of course the next time it comes up it’s not criticism, it’s an honest opinion. And the time after that she forgot. And the time after that she acts like she can’t even tell me I have food on my shirt because I said no criticizing my clothing. And the time after that I’m being unreasonable because she’s just so worried about me and I’ll never be able to manage looking like that…
What your mom doesn’t get (and probably will never get) is that the stuff she’s doing has been training you to be abused by other people, not just herself.
 
I didn’t recap everything I’ve written in previous threads. But the tl;dr version: we’ve been having issues with boundaries for some time. At this point my impression is that I’m dealing with someone who simply doesn’t want to respect boundaries, and won’t do so unless they are firmly enforced. It’s not a communication problem - it’s the problem of getting a parent to recognize that boundaries are where they are, and following them is a requirement for a continued relationship.

At this point, I’ve tried talking things out. And it’s become clear to me that the point of the discussions about boundaries and what is and isn’t allowed, isn’t actually to work out where the boundaries are for the relationship. It’s to try to pressure me into giving up and allowing the status quo to persist. That’s why I don’t want to keep explaining or arguing about what actually is going on - because at this point it’s just turned into a litany of excuses for why I’m being so unfair for actually enforcing the boundaries. (Sheesh, I feel like I’m the mother here.)

So in the clothing example - we might very well be dealing with a case where I’d said, look, I don’t want to hear any more criticism about my clothing. And of course the next time it comes up it’s not criticism, it’s an honest opinion. And the time after that she forgot. And the time after that she acts like she can’t even tell me I have food on my shirt because I said no criticizing my clothing. And the time after that I’m being unreasonable because she’s just so worried about me and I’ll never be able to manage looking like that…

Ok probably not all those back to back, but those have all happened repeatedly.
The best way to enforce a boundary is with as little talk as possible. The more you talk, the more you are giving the message that your boundaries are up for discussion, when if fact, there is no reason to have a conversation on the matter of your boundaries. You’ve given her enough explanations. Enough that she will put 2 and 2 together when you start changing the topics. She’s going to come up with as many loopholes as she can - don’t fall for it. Remember the goal is not to get her to agree with you, but just for her to learn that violating your boundaries will not be tolerated. No amount of talk will make her see that - only action. After all, as long as she has space to talk inappropriately, you are tolerating it. So no matter what the topic, no matter how many loopholes for “understanding the terms” you or she can come up with, the best way to set the boundaries is to immediately change the topic when inappropriate talk begins, and if she will not be swayed from that talk, to leave. That is what “not tolerating it” looks like. She will eventually learn. The more consistent you are, the quicker that process will be. It still may take a long time for her to actually get the message, but in the meantime you will have more peace because you will be avoiding those conversations and you will be in control.
 
Well, this is your mother you’re talking about, and this changes things.
This is not to say that parents have the right to treat their children poorly and that children must endure it.
A parent isn’t some random person or stranger, so different principles of conduct apply.
At this point, the fact that she’s my mother is why I’m even considering setting boundaries like this at all. Some random person would have been been disinvited from my life a long time ago.

But at this point - like I said, what I want is to have a clear what to say so I don’t get caught up in arguing. Trying to explain or discuss things has by and large simply led to attempts to talk me out of boundaries one way or another.
 
You are very right–this is not about your clothing. It is a power struggle, which is what parents have with children, rather rarely what adults who respect each other have with each other.
I really think this needs to be said: Parents are not one’s peers, not one’s equals, not one’s fellow sinners. Therefore, different principles of conduct apply.

In traditional Buddhism, they say that even if one were to carry one’s mother and father on one’s shoulders for the rest of their lives, one could still not repay them for everything they have done for one.

This is not to say that parents are free to abuse their children. But children do have a special filial obligation to their parents.

Doing for them what they have done for one - changing dirty diapers, staying awake on numerous nights seeking to heal the child’s sickness, feeding, cleaning vomit, and so many other things that parents do for their children -
is the least one can do in return.
 
But at this point - like I said, what I want is to have a clear what to say so I don’t get caught up in arguing. Trying to explain or discuss things has by and large simply led to attempts to talk me out of boundaries one way or another.
My suggestion is to offer her to clip her toenails, clean her toilette, take her shopping and such.
Do the adult equivalents of the things she has done for you when you were growing up.

I am serious about this. Doing menial tasks like this for one’s parents puts things into perspective like nothing else can.

I use assertiveness word-jugglery on everyone except my parents.
 
The more upset she gets, the more she is proving your point that these conversations are pointless because they only upset her. Do you see the turn? She isn’t upsetting you, she’s upsetting herself, and you don’t want that for her. The question of whether you are going to change to suit her is not even on the table.
Excellent, excellent, excellent advice!
 
I really think this needs to be said: Parents are not one’s peers, not one’s equals, not one’s fellow sinners. Therefore, different principles of conduct apply.

In traditional Buddhism, they say that even if one were to carry one’s mother and father on one’s shoulders for the rest of their lives, one could still not repay them for everything they have done for one.

This is not to say that parents are free to abuse their children. But children do have a special filial obligation to their parents.

Doing for them what they have done for one - changing dirty diapers, staying awake on numerous nights seeking to heal the child’s sickness, feeding, cleaning vomit, and so many other things that parents do for their children -
is the least one can do in return.
The more upset she gets, the more she is proving your point that these conversations are pointless because they only upset her. Do you see the turn? She isn’t upsetting you, she’s upsetting herself, and you don’t want that for her. The question of whether you are going to change to suit her is not even on the table. She may as well be complaining to you about who they’ve elected president, because her complaining won’t change anything.
A particular advice I got from a Jewish article - sometimes the best way to honor your parents is to live as though they raised you right, whether they did or not.

In this case, my mother is upset by the fact that I act as an adult. What she wants is for me to be a child who obeys her and who persists in needing to be cared for. It wouldn’t be appropriate for me, as an adult, to play that role. Part of being an adult is that sometimes I’m going to do things that my mother doesn’t like. It’s not good for her if she gets upset and starts a fight every time that happens. So the best thing to do is to try to get to a point where we can move past her being upset every time I don’t do things “right.”

Do I try to help out when I’m there (I don’t live close)? Sure. I do try to go out of my way to be respectful and helpful. But that’s not going to substitute for having clear, firm boundaries in this case. You also have to be careful in cases like this, because parents like mine will misuse the sense of obligation, to try to justify their own bad behavior. It’s been a common problem that my mother justifies her behavior now, because of something I did 10 or 15 years ago as a child.
 
A particular advice I got from a Jewish article - sometimes the best way to honor your parents is to live as though they raised you right, whether they did or not.

In this case, my mother is upset by the fact that I act as an adult. What she wants is for me to be a child who obeys her and who persists in needing to be cared for. It wouldn’t be appropriate for me, as an adult, to play that role. Part of being an adult is that sometimes I’m going to do things that my mother doesn’t like. It’s not good for her if she gets upset and starts a fight every time that happens. So the best thing to do is to try to get to a point where we can move past her being upset every time I don’t do things “right.”

Do I try to help out when I’m there (I don’t live close)? Sure. I do try to go out of my way to be respectful and helpful. But that’s not going to substitute for having clear, firm boundaries in this case. You also have to be careful in cases like this, because parents like mine will misuse the sense of obligation, to try to justify their own bad behavior. It’s been a common problem that my mother justifies her behavior now, because of something I did 10 or 15 years ago as a child.
“…sometimes the best way to honor your parents is to live as though they raised you right, whether they did or not.” That is an excellent principle!

It is sad, but sometimes as an adult child, just as when you are a parent, you have to let go of an unhealthy desire to please–which is based on a totally normal desire for mutual love and acceptance between parent and child–in favor of saying “no” when it is your duty to say “no.”

When it comes to how we treat enemies, we are to turn the other cheek. It is good to humbly overlook the verbal offenses of others. Having said that, when Our Lord was struck for supposedly being disrespectful to the High Priest during his interrogation, he was duty-bound to stick up for the truth. He bore his Passion with patience, yet in that case he had to say something.

That is the sort of line you’re trying to walk, here. It would not just be painful to you to accept the things you are describing. It would be wrong to give your mother inappropriate authority over you. You can walk two miles when she presses you to walk one, but you can’t say, “Yes, Mom, what comes out of your mouth is as true as the Bible.”

Moving past her getting upset or using emotionally manipulative tactics is not on your plate. That is beyond your control. Your duty is to find appropriate ways to respond to her inappropriate behaviors. As you obviously realize, that will not necessarily change her. It is not your job to make her be appropriate, and you couldn’t accomplish it if it were.

On that account, one of the most important things I would get for you is someone you can talk to before you see her and with whom you can debrief after you see her. Maybe it is a counsellor. Maybe it is Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Try to keep your eyes on your behavior, though, and do not gauge your “success” by whether or not she changes hers. I don’t know if I’ve suggested this, but much of the literature written by children of alcoholics could hold some help for you, too. Why? Because you are in that codependent situation they describe with their motto: I didn’t cause it, I can’t control it, I can’t cure it. Many of the strategies in the tool box of the adult child of an alcoholic are going to be tools that are useful for you, too. Look into those.
 
Just a couple suggestions:
  1. Read something. There are a lot of authors on this sort of thing. Cloud and Townsend are two that have a Christian perspective on boundaries. I recently finished one of their books, and plan to start another soon. For me though, it is more about letting people in than keeping anyone out.
  2. Remember Matt 14: 22 - 33. I try to think of this in any stressful situation to pause and acknowledge that Jesus is present and in charge. This makes it more likely that I will think before responding, and not “react”. Personally, I don’t know of “wrote responses” that work in every situation. Rather, after a short pause and thinking of Christ, the best answer comes to mind.
  3. Look for the positive. I am in a position where I cannot always avoid interacting with someone who might want to take a conversation where I am not comfortable, such as making a negative comment about someone else. So, in that type of situation, I will just reply with something positive the person did, and change the subject.
Good luck.
 
“I wear black because I’m in mourning for the healthy relationship that you and I have never had.” 😃
 
“I wear black because I’m in mourning for the healthy relationship that you and I have never had.” 😃
Yes, and bring a gallon of gasoline and some matches, too! :rolleyes: 😃

Don’t try to teach a pig to sing. You’ll just frustrate yourself and annoy the pig.
 
  1. Remember Matt 14: 22 - 33. I try to think of this in any stressful situation to pause and acknowledge that Jesus is present and in charge. This makes it more likely that I will think before responding, and not “react”. Personally, I don’t know of “wrote responses” that work in every situation. Rather, after a short pause and thinking of Christ, the best answer comes to mind.
Part of the purpose of rote responses is so I don’t say anything remotely close to what I’m thinking!

But in all seriousness - sometimes rote responses are useful. In cases like this, what needs to happen is to communicate that some subjects are closed. Not up for discussion, no matter how many times they’re brought up. They may not work for every situation - but in a case like this where roughly the same thing keeps happening they’re pretty good.
 
The best way to enforce a boundary is with as little talk as possible. The more you talk, the more you are giving the message that your boundaries are up for discussion, when if fact, there is no reason to have a conversation on the matter of your boundaries. You’ve given her enough explanations. Enough that she will put 2 and 2 together when you start changing the topics. She’s going to come up with as many loopholes as she can - don’t fall for it. Remember the goal is not to get her to agree with you, but just for her to learn that violating your boundaries will not be tolerated. No amount of talk will make her see that - only action. After all, as long as she has space to talk inappropriately, you are tolerating it. So no matter what the topic, no matter how many loopholes for “understanding the terms” you or she can come up with, the best way to set the boundaries is to immediately change the topic when inappropriate talk begins, and if she will not be swayed from that talk, to leave. That is what “not tolerating it” looks like. She will eventually learn. The more consistent you are, the quicker that process will be. It still may take a long time for her to actually get the message, but in the meantime you will have more peace because you will be avoiding those conversations and you will be in control.
This 100%!

If you are getting stuck in arguments about the boundaries, then you actually haven’t enforced the boundary to begin with.

So - the boundaries are to be enforced, which includes that the boundaries are not up for debate. Learn some of the phrases suggested, especially “I’m sorry you feel that way”, and learn how to walk away politely when needed (go for a walk, go to bed, go to the bathroom, whatever, just get away, even for a minute).

Setting boundaries is not about explaining rationally to the other person why the boundary needs to be set. The boundary needs to be set precisely because they have been incapable of rationally examining the situation. So it’s more like training a dog (or young child), and consistency is the key. You don’t get mad, you don’t get upset, you just ingore bad behaviour (change topic, walk away) and reward good behaviour (have engaged conversations when she can remain appropriate).
 
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