Ad Orientum

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The huge point you seem to be missing is that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is in need of a complete overhaul in order to make it more reverent and sacred.
Jean, that sounds like the majority of EF worshippers’ opinions, and you are certainly entitled to express it. Just keep in mind that this is the public and ordinary form of the universal Church, and it is already a sacred and reverent rite. As we listen to the eucharistic prayer of the previous Roman Missal, “We thank you for counting us worthy to stand in your presence and serve you,” there is no greater privilege. The Church does not deem it necessary to “completely overhaul” it in order to help it become more sacred – it is already sacred.

Have you watched Pope Francis’s liturgies yet? What do you think? [Rhetorical question for reflection, not necessarily needing a reply]
 
I don’t have any problem with the Ordinary Form of the Mass, even thought I also love the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. The huge point you seem to be missing is that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is in need of a complete overhaul in order to make it more reverent and sacred. If you already have that, then consider yourself very blessed. It is not the case in all parishes to have a lovely, sacred, OF Mass. That is the problem. Why must it become a war between the two forms? Your statement is failing to recognize the true problem.
The Ordinary Form of the Mass does not need a “complete overhaul”. It merely requires that it be celebrated with dignity and reverence.

I just got back from Mass at a Benedictine abbey. The propers and ordinary were chanted in Gregorian chant (Latin with Greek Kyrie), according to the Graduale Romanum. The rest of the Mass was in French plainchant. The monks entered in procession with incense. Incense was used throughout the Mass. The only musical instrument was a pipe organ prelude, offertory and postlude, the chant was a cappella. There were decently long silent pauses after readings and communion. There was no commotion before or after Mass, there was time for silent prayer.

All this was done using the current Ordinary Form Missal. There was nothing in that Mass to suggest that the OF requires an “overhaul”.
 
There is a difference between practice at individual parishes and a complete overhaul of the Mass. We can all hope and pray (and assist Father as appropriate) for beautiful, revs rant Masses at our local parishes whatever the form. We should not assume that a change in direction or even form will ensure that everything will be instantly perfect.

We need to pray for our priests and for vocations. And we need to set an example with our own lives and offer our prayers and penances for the improvement of Masses everywhere.
 
No, he stood facing the Apostles, speaking the words in a microphone, and in English. :rolleyes:

And they were still confused. 🙂
The culture of those days was to recline [Lk. 22:14] on the left arm and use the right arm for eating. This is why St. John was at Jesus’ breast, as scripture tells us, since they leaned toward the next person at table. The seating was in a horseshoe arrangement, U-shaped. Jesus faced all of the apostles at the same time, as head of the low table. Similar to our churches today that have pie-shaped arrangements.
 
The culture of those days was to recline [Lk. 22:14] on the left arm and use the right arm for eating. This is why St. John was at Jesus’ breast, as scripture tells us, since they leaned toward the next person at table. The seating was in a horseshoe arrangement, U-shaped. Jesus faced all of the apostles at the same time, as head of the low table. Similar to our churches today that have pie-shaped arrangements.
It seems you’re making a lot of assumptions here.

Maybe as good a question would be, what was the position of the high priest in the OF, when he was offering sacrifices to God.
 
It seems you’re making a lot of assumptions here.

Maybe as good a question would be, what was the position of the high priest in the OF, when he was offering sacrifices to God.
I wasn’t there. 😃 Does it really matter? Jesus celebrated according to His culture, facing his disciples, which matters far more than the manner used by the high priest in ancient Israel.

In reality, the Church is the legislator of her disciplines, which are ever-changing. A few posts ago, I showed the difference between Benedict and Francis, who each celebrate mass in a different, but *lawful *orientation, wherein one used vernacular, and the other used latin. One preferred A.O., the other V.P. In the early church, we had agape meals. 🤷

I know you have been here long enough and seen enough posts to know that disciplines change, and no pope can bind another in perpetuity. We need to pray that our new pope will guide us in the direction that the Holy Spirit leads him, whatever that may mean in the future of our liturgies.

[You love to bait me, right? 😉 ]
 
No, he stood facing the Apostles, speaking the words in a microphone, and in English. :rolleyes:

And they were still confused and fled. 🙂
See - it was the English that threw them - He should have used Latin:p

(For those who don’t know me and FWIW He probably spoke Aramaic throughout His ministry.)

The Mass is both sacrifice and meal.
 
Did Jesus sit at a table or an altar in the Upper Room?
According to some reliable research, they sat at a large table, all facing in the same direction. If we trust that the Fathers followed this original form and that the Holy Spirit guided the development of the Sacred Liturgy through the centuries, we can assume they were all facing ad orientem.

We must also understand that the choice to celebrate or not celebrate the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite ad orientem resides solely on the celebrating priest. Nobody, not even the bishop, not even the Holy Father can force him to celebrate facing the people. So we must ask ourselves why such novelties as facing the people and receiving communion on the hand have prevailed over the tradition, and if those who staunchly defend them have good, solid, valid reasons for doing so.
 
According to some reliable research, they sat at a large table, all facing in the same direction. If we trust that the Fathers followed this original form and that the Holy Spirit guided the development of the Sacred Liturgy through the centuries, we can assume they were all facing ad orientem.
Would you mind providing the “reliable research?” Everything I have read and googled regarding “Jesus reclined at table” [which is the wording used in scripture] – the custom of that culture – then you’re repeating a false premise to base your conclusions upon. The common painting of the Last Supper is only man’s imagination, where they all sat in a row facing A.O., but the reality is far different.
 
According to some reliable research, they sat at a large table, all facing in the same direction. If we trust that the Fathers followed this original form and that the Holy Spirit guided the development of the Sacred Liturgy through the centuries, we can assume they were all facing ad orientem.

We must also understand that the choice to celebrate or not celebrate the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite ad orientem resides solely on the celebrating priest. Nobody, not even the bishop, not even the Holy Father can force him to celebrate facing the people. So we must ask ourselves why such novelties as facing the people and receiving communion on the hand have prevailed over the tradition, and if those who staunchly defend them have good, solid, valid reasons for doing so.
The reliable source that has that has the women sitting at their own table facing in towards Christ at his table. So He is facing them.
 
According to the same reliable source, the bread was leavened and everyone got their own glass cup of wine.
 
What I meant in my original comment was this: celebrate the OF of the Mass in the way it is supposed to be celebrated. It cannot be too hard to find out what that is. Stop the novelties. That is what I meant by overhaul. I did not mean the form of the Mass, but the way it is actually being done. I am sorry that I did not make that clear in the beginning. Stop pitting one form of the Mass against the other. That doesn’t help anything. It promotes bickering.
 
Stop the novelties. That is what I meant by overhaul. I did not mean the form of the Mass, but the way it is actually being done. I am sorry that I did not make that clear in the beginning. Stop pitting one form of the Mass against the other. That doesn’t help anything. It promotes bickering.
Jean, four different members replied to your post about the overhaul, and none of them that I read were “pitting one form of the Mass against the other,” to quote your words. Please be honest in your comments.
 
Would you mind providing the “reliable research?” Everything I have read and googled regarding “Jesus reclined at table” [which is the wording used in scripture] – the custom of that culture – then you’re repeating a false premise to base your conclusions upon. The common painting of the Last Supper is only man’s imagination, where they all sat in a row facing A.O., but the reality is far different.
I read ''The Spirit of the Liturgy" by Joseph Ratzinger. He said they reclined at a horseshoe or S shaped table. The person presiding over the feast did not sit at the head facing the rest. He sat with the rest in the people. Apparently the head was kept clear for service. Pope emeritus Benedict is reliable in his research, you could check the book to see his references.

I think what he has written makes a lot of sense. Not just about this particular part, but the whole book. I highly recommend it.
 
I read ''The Spirit of the Liturgy" by Joseph Ratzinger. He said they reclined at a horseshoe or S shaped table. The person presiding over the feast did not sit at the head facing the rest. He sat with the rest in the people. Apparently the head was kept clear for service. Pope emeritus Benedict is reliable in his research, you could check the book to see his references.
I tend to believe that it was a horseshoe shape, based on all of the jewish customs for the passover meal, and all of the synoptics say they “reclined.” Jesus’s position among them is less important, for whatever place He reclined within the horseshoe, He would be facing most of the disciples in a place of prominence, especially since He was distributing to them the consecrated bread and wine. The notable point being it was not a long table with chairs facing in one direction as DaVinci’s painting leads all of us to believe. 😉

http://blog.adw.org/wp-content/uploads/feast.jpg
 
I tend to believe that it was a horseshoe shape, based on all of the jewish customs for the passover meal, and all of the synoptics say they “reclined.” Jesus’s position among them is less important, for whatever place He reclined within the horseshoe, He would be facing most of the disciples in a place of prominence, especially since He was distributing to them the consecrated bread and wine. The notable point being it was not a long table with chairs facing in one direction as DaVinci’s painting leads all of us to believe. 😉

http://blog.adw.org/wp-content/uploads/feast.jpg
:eek: that looks like the floor plan for our church!

Except we don’t have liturgical dancers and couches.😛
 
Ok, I did not explain myself clearly enough. I was not referring to Da Vinci’s painting. I referred to the customary Jewish setting of the time.

The most prominent feature of the room would have been a low table in the shape of a “U” called a triclinium, a Roman styled table, of various sizes and styles, that had been adopted by the Jews of the first century. The table had large couches, or cushions, placed on each of the three sides.

The guests approached the table from behind the couches, then reclined on their left side, supporting their head on their left elbow, leaving their right hand free to take the food. Their feet would stretch out behind them, away from the table.

A man’s head would be in line with the chest of the person reclining to his left, making it easy for that person to lean back and speak to the person on his left without anyone else hearing what is said.

Everyone sat on one side on the outside of the table (all facing in the same direction, that is) allowing the inside of the table to open for servers.

The host of the feast would not sit in the middle, but instead second to the left, with the guest of honor on his left, and a trusted friend to his right. The seating then continued around the triclinium, the most important guests seated on the left, then going around the table, with the least important sitting on the far right. If this seating arrangement was followed, John the beloved was seated to Jesus’ right (the place of the trusted friend), Peter on the opposite end (the place of the servant), and to the left of Christ, in the seat of honor, as both Jesus and Judas were able to eat from the same bowl.

Thus, Christ was not directly facing the apostles, and the only one who was farther to the end of the table was John, who could thus recline back on the Lord’s chest and see the Lord’s face.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2066&pictureid=15108
From “Food at the Time of the Bible” by Miriam Vamosh

I would like to add that nothing in any of the documents of the Second Vatican Council call for a change in orientation of the priest. In fact, there is no Church document that calls for it. Even the Missal used for the Ordinary Form seems to assumed that the priest is facing ad orientem when it instructs him at the “Pray Brethren” and “Behold the Lamb of God” to say these prayers “facing the people.” The only document that seems to imply that this is preferred is paragraph 299 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) which reads, “The altar should be built separate from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.” However, as clarified by the Congregation for Divine Worship, this is a misleading translation. When one looks at the Latin the clause “which is desirable,” it refers back to the first part of the sentence (that the altar should be built away from the wall, which is desirable wherever possible).

Contrary to a prevailing misconception there is no evidence for celebration of Mass versus populum in the first nineteen centuries of the Church’s history, with rare exceptions (see The Spirit of the Liturgy, by Cardinal Ratzinger, pp. 74-8). It is true that when Christians in fourth-century Rome could first freely begin to build churches, they customarily located the sanctuary towards the west (a Christian replication of the layout and the orientation of the Jerusalem Temple), however the people initially stood in the side naves and faced the centrally located altar for the first portion of the service, and later -at the approach of the Consecration - they all turned to face east towards the open church doors, the same direction the priest faced throughout the Eucharistic liturgy.

The idea of having the people face the priest and the priest face the people began only in the 16th century, with Martin Luther. In his Deutsche Messe und Ordnung des Gottesdienstes of 1526 he writes:
We shall keep the priestly ornaments, the altar, the lights …] but in the true Mass, among true Christians, it would be necessary that the altar did not remain as it currently is and that the priest faced the people
This homily given in the Cathedral of Marquette, MI by Bishop Alexander Sample, while he celebrated the Extraordinary Form on Sept 7, 2011, explains some of the reasons for praying the Mass Ad Orientem, and how doing so directs our attention outwardly towards Christ.
 
It would be horrible to eat lying down.

BTW doesn’t the Bible ask the Jews to eat standing up during passover?

[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 12:11[/BIBLEDRB]
 
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