Adam and Eve question

[laocmo]

According to the bible, in the beginning, in the garden, there were four sentient beings. God, Lucifer in the form of a serpent, and Adam and Eve. Now we are told that God, and Lucifer being an angel, were much more advanced beings than the two humans. Comparing Adam and Eve to them would be much more inappropriate than comparing Adam and Eve to an ant crawling on the ground. So now one of these advanced beings tells the humans not to partake of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The other advanced being says, nonsense, he is afraid you will have knowledge like him. So go ahead, it’s perfectly OK.

What reason would the two very naive ignorant humans have for listening to the first being as opposed to listening to the second? I think they would have no reason to trust one of these advanced beings over the other.

Granted the story is probably all a myth and an analogy to what really happened to cause original sin. But taken the least bit seriously, this tale does not present enough fact and or evidence to condemn Adam and Eve and all their descendants to the miserable consequences of original sin as we all have been taught.

Any speculation on what really happened in the garden?

 

[seagal]

The devil may be of a higher intellectual order than humans but he is still only a creature, not at all on par with God. The reason the 2 humans should have trusted what God told them is that they knew very well that God was their creator and the snake wasn’t. The reason they didn’t is the same reason we don’t do what we know is the right thing: because it’s just too enticing and we want what we want. Isn’t that the reason we all sin?

 

[LethalMouse]

And the fact that the devil appeared as a simple creature. The serpent would be one of the creatures God gave Adam dominion over, even if possessed by satan. The hierarchy would have been:

God
Adam
Eve
Snake

Instead the humans let things playout as:

Snake
Eve
Adam
God

Hence the real aspect of the sin

 

[HungerNThirst4R]

Granted the story is probably all a myth and an analogy to what really happened to cause original sin. But taken the least bit seriously, this tale does not present enough fact and or evidence to condemn Adam and Eve and all their descendants to the miserable consequences of original sin as we all have been taught.

Any speculation on what really happened in the garden?

No this is exactly what the doctrine of sin teaches vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

 

[1Lord1Faith]

What reason would the two very naive ignorant humans have for listening to the first being as opposed to listening to the second? I think they would have no reason to trust one of these advanced beings over the other.

Genesis implies that Adam had a relationship with the holy Spirit. I don’t see how a nomadic, herding, religious people of 3000 years ago would equate their idea of ‘God breathed’ with a manipulative snake.

Granted the story is probably all a myth and an analogy to what really happened to cause original sin. But taken the least bit seriously, this tale does not present enough fact and or evidence to condemn Adam and Eve and all their descendants to the miserable consequences of original sin as we all have been taught.

CCC:
*III. ORIGINAL SIN

Freedom put to the test

396 God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: "for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die."276 The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"277 symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.
*

Many posts on CAF that call God’s authority into question may be an example of what original sin does. People have a certain level of knowledge about good and evil, that is what original sin is; it’s not a baton passed from generation to generation.

 

[mikeeh]

Genesis 2 seems to indicate that Adam was created first and he helped God name the creates in the garden. During this time, before the creation of Eve, God and Adam worked together. It is possible God warned Adam about the serpent. When Eve was created, Adam was entrusted to protect her. It is possible that God only warned Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge, but entrusted Adam with the task of protecting Eve and warning her about the serpent.

 

[Bahman]

God
Adam
Eve
Snake

How the hierarchy could be like this if Satan manage to cheat Adam and Eve. To me hierarchy is like this:

God
Snake
Adam and Eve

Now there is an important question: Why God allowed access of Garden to Satan knowing the consequence?

 

[hasantas]

Here some parts of story in Qur’an which is directly word of God. There is no “snake” in story! That should be “Israiliyyat”.

30-And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I will make
upon the earth a successive authority.” They said, “Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?” Allah said, “Indeed, I know that which you do not know.”

31-And He taught Adam the names - all of them. Then He showed them to the angels and said, “Inform Me of the names of these, if you are truthful.”

32-They said, “Exalted are You; we have no knowledge except what You have taught us. Indeed, it is You who is the Knowing, the Wise.”

33-He said, “O Adam, inform them of their names.” And when he had informed them of their names, He said, “Did I not tell you that I know the unseen [aspects] of the heavens and the earth? And I know what you reveal and what you have concealed.”

34-And [mention] when We said to the angels, “Prostrate before Adam”; so they prostrated, except for Iblees(Satan). He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers.

35-And We said, “O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers.”

36-But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, “Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time.”

37Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful. Al_Baqarah:30-37(2)

11-And We have certainly created you, [O Mankind], and given you [human] form. Then We said to the angels, “Prostrate to Adam”; so they prostrated, except for Iblees(Satan). He was not of those who prostrated.

12- Allah ] said, “What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?” [Satan] said, “I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay.”

…

19-And “O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat from wherever you will but do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers.”

20-But Satan whispered to them to make apparent to them that which was concealed from them of their private parts. He said, “Your Lord did not forbid you this tree except that you become angels or become of the immortal.”

21-So he made them fall, through deception. And when they tasted of the tree, their private parts became apparent to them, and they began to fasten together over themselves from the leaves of Paradise. And their Lord called to them, “Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you that Satan is to you a clear enemy?” Al-A’raf:11-21(7)

(Iblees: Lucifer and Satan: Shaytan I think)

 

[LethalMouse]

How the hierarchy could be like this if Satan manage to cheat Adam and Eve. To me hierarchy is like this:

God
Snake
Adam and Eve

Now there is an important question: Why God allowed access of Garden to Satan knowing the consequence?

Have you ever seen a puppet king? ever seen a parent be ordered around by a 5yr old?

There is the RIGHT hierarchy and then the FAILINGS of the leader.

When the snake comes you are to stand your ground as you answer to God, if you choose to place the snake above you…you have failed. If you are with God and Satan is not, he is beneath you. If you recognize him as above you the failing is not with the hierarchy, but with you.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . condemn Adam and Eve and all their descendants to the miserable consequences of original sin as we all have been taught . . .

I take it you would agree that there is misery.
Religions seek a diagnosis and treatment for suffering.
The universe is either good and the misery is anomalous, or it is evil, at best indifferent.
If it is not good, suicide is pretty much the only solution. YOLO, and when the going gets tough, get going.
If it is good, it becomes a matter of sorting out how it came to be this way and fixing it.
It’s clear from your posts that you’ve been taught something very different from what has been revealed to us and interpreted by countless generations, and here made understandable in the Catechism. You have been taught about myths, that new > old, this world is all there is, and that it’s all about power and self-gratification. What the church teaches is love.

 

[Bahman]

Have you ever seen a puppet king? ever seen a parent be ordered around by a 5yr old?

There is the RIGHT hierarchy and then the FAILINGS of the leader.

When the snake comes you are to stand your ground as you answer to God, if you choose to place the snake above you…you have failed. If you are with God and Satan is not, he is beneath you. If you recognize him as above you the failing is not with the hierarchy, but with you.

Hebrews 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor

 

[LethalMouse]

Hebrews 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor

There is a reason fallen angels are given a new denominator. Demon < Angel. Like in the US the President’s power is derived within the confines of the constitution, if he operates outside of it he ceases to act as president.

If the President comes to you and says “hey go murder that guy” you are “above him” at that time. Moreso if the president is impeached and put into prison as a felon… he is no longer even a voter, ergo you jave more power than him in the hierarchy of the nation.

The devil is an ex senator who is a felon… he is beneath you.

 

[BobCatholic]

What reason would the two very naive ignorant humans

What I never understood is why Adam and Eve were created imperfect and then were eventually going to fail. Not if, but when.

Write buggy software, and it will run incorrectly.

Adam and Eve clearly were imperfect.

They were naive, stupid, or proud. Bugs in the software led to the blue screen of death crash called the fall.

Yes, they made the choice. Yes, it was “free will” - but how free was it when there were bugs in the software?

 

[Bahman]

There is a reason fallen angels are given a new denominator. Demon < Angel. Like in the US the President’s power is derived within the confines of the constitution, if he operates outside of it he ceases to act as president.

If the President comes to you and says “hey go murder that guy” you are “above him” at that time. Moreso if the president is impeached and put into prison as a felon… he is no longer even a voter, ergo you jave more power than him in the hierarchy of the nation.

The devil is an ex senator who is a felon… he is beneath you.

Lets call fallen angel as demons. They of course are smarter than Adam and Eve.

 

[Aloysium]

What I never understood is why Adam and Eve were created imperfect and then were eventually going to fail. Not if, but when.

Write buggy software, and it will run incorrectly.

Adam and Eve clearly were imperfect.

They were naive, stupid, or proud. Bugs in the software led to the blue screen of death crash called the fall.

Yes, they made the choice. Yes, it was “free will” - but how free was it when there were bugs in the software?

Really Bob?

You are the one writing the software, bud. It’s your life.
Given a mere Windows 1 and wanting Windows !0.
Just do your best. It’s a struggle for all of us.

Sick of the rot? Hand it over to Jesus.
It may take some time, but He will make you whole.

And, stop sitting in judgement - you are not God.
That’s what got us here in the first place.
You are who you are and God loves you.

Love your neighbour as yourself and love God with all your heart.
We’re a work in progress. What’s the problem?

Sorry if I am sounding uncharitable. I pray that whatever glitch you may be facing will be lifted or revealed as the blessing that it might actually be.

 

[LethalMouse]

Lets call fallen angel as demons. They of course are smarter than Adam and Eve.

And a 40 yr old felon senator is smarter than the 18yr old highschool drop out who works at McDonald’s… the 18yr old still trumos him in hierarchy

In fact I am sure somewhere someone with an iq of 180 is dealibg drugs, but when he says “psssstttt come here and get some heroin” I still refuse

 

[o_mlly]

What reason would the two very naive ignorant humans have for listening to the first being as opposed to listening to the second? I think they would have no reason to trust one of these advanced beings over the other. …

Granted the story is probably all a myth and an analogy to what really happened to cause original sin. But taken the least bit seriously, this tale does not present enough fact and or evidence to condemn Adam and Eve and all their descendants to the miserable consequences of original sin as we all have been taught.

Any speculation on what really happened in the garden?

Adam, in a state of original holiness and justice, chose his will against God’s. Mary, in a similar state to Adam, chose to have it done according to His will. Both suffered. The former to the alienation of mankind; the latter to its reconciliation.

 

[BobCatholic]

Really Bob?

You are the one writing the software, bud.

Nope. If I could write the software, I’d write myself as a billionaire. But that is impossible.

Sick of the rot? Hand it over to Jesus.
It may take some time, but He will make you whole.

Not here on earth.

And, stop sitting in judgement - you are not God.

Judgment? Hello? Their screw up is the ONLY REASON we are not in the Garden of Eden. God holds us temporally responsible for their mess up!

So yeah, I have every right to sit in judgment. THEY SCREWED UP. And God punishes us temporally for it.

 

[kdbueno]

You have to understand the gravity of their disobedience. Bible is not consequantially primordial. Rather, it expresses the divine thought that the possibility of salvation is imminent.

 

[davidv]

Nope. If I could write the software, I’d write myself as a billionaire. But that is impossible.

Not here on earth.

Judgment? Hello? Their screw up is the ONLY REASON we are not in the Garden of Eden. God holds us temporally responsible for their mess up!

So yeah, I have every right to sit in judgment. THEY SCREWED UP. And God punishes us temporally for it.

Not correct. Only Adam was responsible for his own sin. You are not. You are only dealing with the consequences. Also, you own sins, as well as mine, also quite likely contributing to unwanted (screwed up) consequences of others.