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grannymh
Guest
???
Adam and Eve sinned , but why should we all should we all suffer the consequences?
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allhers
Guest
When one suffers, we all suffer. At least we all ought to share in the sufferings of others.
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grannymh
Guest
“Cutting off ties with God” is explained in post 6.
Also, there needs to be a far better explanation of the idea of Adam (you did mean Adam???) being connected to God.
Perhaps it would be best to start with basic human nature which is transmitted from our parents to us by propagation. Since Original Sin is a once only action of Adam, it was so serious that it changed the state of Adam’s spiritual soul to a state of deprivation of original holiness and justice – no sanctifying grace.
Original sin became a “contracted state”.Because Adam transmitted his human nature and thus this contracted state to his childen who in turn transmitted their human nature to… Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases the contracted state of original sin and turns a person back toward God.
This contracted state is spiritual and thus it is not passed on by bad genes. There are mysteries to life. CCC 404 states humbly: Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. CCC 377 and 396-409 should be consulted for Catholic teaching.
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grannymh
Guest
The Catholic teaching is that “we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature.” (CCC 404) St. Paul explains the significance of Adam’s status in Romans 5: 12-21
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
I was going for simplicity >_> Sorry.
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grannymh
Guest
It is I who owe you an apology. I was caught up with the post I was looking at.
I just corrected my post to refer to your post 6 which was excellent.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
In that case, glad you liked it
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arkwright
Guest
Unfortunately none of the replies so far answer my question .
As I read through the posts I cannot help but ask another question . Is the God portrayed in the Adam and Eve story the same God as the one portrayed in the parable of the Prodigal Son ?
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fhansen
Guest
Sure. God didn’t leave/reject man at the Fall, rather man left God. Faith, hope, and love all died- man no longer had a God; he preferred himself to God, as the Catechism puts it, he had become his own god, with all that entails, and that ended him up in a pigsty known as this world. After recognizing his dismal status he has the opportunity to run back to the Father who’s been waiting with open arms all along. Jesus came to show us in no uncertain terms this true nature and will of God, to overcome our undeserved mistrust, pride, hatred. To the extent that we sin ourselves, we carry on the family tradition began by Adam- we confirm his sin, his decision to disobey, his lack of faith; we prove our own failure to love, our need for grace, our own deserving of the consequences.
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Dorothy
Guest
I thank the Holy Spirit and you for your post!
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earl40
Guest
The correct answer to your question is found in the bible. Now you will get all kinds of advice here about what men think on this issue but if you read you will learn. I added (Adam) and (Jesus) for you as the context implies. Below you will see we are either in Christ or in Adam. Note ALL men were imputed the with the sin of Adam and ALL men who Jesus worked and died for shall be made righteous. The idea or biblical federal headship of men is IMPUTED by the act of the two men. One is Adam (who passed his sinful nature to ALL) the other is Jesus who is the federal head to all those He died for and believe in Him.
17 For if by one man’s offense (Adam) death reigned by one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore as by the offense of one, (Adam) judgment to condemnation came upon all men, even so by the righteousness of One (Jesus), the free gift unto justification of life came upon all men.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience (Adam) many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One (Jesus) shall many be made righteous.
17 For if by one man’s offense (Adam) death reigned by one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.
18 Therefore as by the offense of one, (Adam) judgment to condemnation came upon all men, even so by the righteousness of One (Jesus), the free gift unto justification of life came upon all men.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience (Adam) many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One (Jesus) shall many be made righteous.
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earl40
Guest
Correct…!!! We are born sinners and those who Jesus died for will be redeemed from their sin and Adams.
Reprobation like Justification is not based on our works. The degree of felicity in heaven or amount of punishment in hell is based on our works,
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fhansen
Guest
So all who go to heaven don’t deserve it while all who go to hell do deserve it-even though they have no choice? And Jesus just died for those whom God elected for salvation in His sovereign capriciousness?
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fhansen
Guest
Thank you, Dorothy-deserved or not, that was very kind.I thank the Holy Spirit and you for your post!
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I don’t think we’ll really know the full answer in this life.
Still, I have wondered about it even so. I have worked with animals all my life. Animals don’t do anything evil. They do what their nature requires of them. It may seem evil at times to us, but it really isn’t. They have no choices.
We do have choices. I have wondered at times (in thinking about evolution as well) whether perhaps Eden was not some lush garden, but the world as we know it. In a sense all animals live in Eden. They don’t comprehend how it could be better or worse. They don’t question it. Cold, hot, hungry, thirsty, well-fed…they don’t question any of it. They simply live out Providence as Providence is for them.
We do comprehend such things, and we kick and rail against them. We always want to return to Eden and spend a lot of time and effort trying to re-create it. Why? Well, I have sometimes thought that (if there’s anything to evolution) at some point God changed man from a creature fully attuned to Providence into one that could choose to accept or reject it. And perhaps He did so with one man and one woman simultaneously. Going evolutionary again, perhaps they had something new…the ability to see paths that diverged from Providence, and the ability to see that they could take those paths. And then, perhaps, they did exactly that. “Wait a minute. I’m cold. I don’t like this. Here, give me that skin you’re wearing. You don’t need it as much as I do.” That sort of thing.
And why, then, would God create us that way? Why instill in our DNA (perhaps there) something that triggered our brains into greater self-awareness, a self-awareness we did not have as “animals” that lived in perfect accord with His Providence. Possibly pre-Adamic “man” didn’t “die” because he was unaware of death…just as animals are. They don’t think about death. They just go on until they do die. And perhaps, being in the Mind of God, as all creation is, the pre-Adam “people” lived on in the Mind of God, so “death” to them was not “death” even if they could know it when they saw it, and even though they could physically die.
So why the spark of knowing? Is it a blessing? Is it a curse? Well, it’s not too hard to think of it as both. We don’t live in total harmony with God’s providence anymore. We question, we doubt, we wonder, we have “knowledge of good and evil”. In the moment when that DNA-enabled spark was kindled, was it somehow self-kindled? “I can choose. So I choose to choose”. Could God have even done it through natural processes? We all know radioactive particles can alter cells, genes, DNA. We know that. What would it take to do that? Or was it perhaps some blast of something-or-other like whatever it was that imprinted the Shroud of Turin? Do we know what imprinted the Shroud? Was it a pure miracle, or the natural energy unleashed from a return from another dimension we term “heaven”; another mode of existence altogether? Not to be too much a smart aleck, but were Adam and Eve’s brains touched by a “brane”, changing them in the process?
And did God, who perhaps thought “I’ll raise them up from their former state. I’ll ennoble them; make them more like angels in having real consciousness and choice. In that way, the greater will be their reward, their glory, their eventual union with Me” but knowing there was danger in it too; danger that we might choose ourselves entirely, like Satan who lives in an eternal cocoon of self-love and self-worship; the “heaven” in which he is the only “god”, that pushes everything else into an outer space of hatred, just as we sometimes (but less definitively until the very end) try to live in “Edens” of our own making; Edens in which we walk with the only “god” we will allow…ourselves.
Anyway, that’s all speculative, and it’s quite enough. And just to clarify, I do not necessarily believe we are the product of evolution, nor do I preclude it as possible. But either way, we are God’s doing. We just don’t know how He did it.
Leaving it with you now. HAPPY EASTER!
Still, I have wondered about it even so. I have worked with animals all my life. Animals don’t do anything evil. They do what their nature requires of them. It may seem evil at times to us, but it really isn’t. They have no choices.
We do have choices. I have wondered at times (in thinking about evolution as well) whether perhaps Eden was not some lush garden, but the world as we know it. In a sense all animals live in Eden. They don’t comprehend how it could be better or worse. They don’t question it. Cold, hot, hungry, thirsty, well-fed…they don’t question any of it. They simply live out Providence as Providence is for them.
We do comprehend such things, and we kick and rail against them. We always want to return to Eden and spend a lot of time and effort trying to re-create it. Why? Well, I have sometimes thought that (if there’s anything to evolution) at some point God changed man from a creature fully attuned to Providence into one that could choose to accept or reject it. And perhaps He did so with one man and one woman simultaneously. Going evolutionary again, perhaps they had something new…the ability to see paths that diverged from Providence, and the ability to see that they could take those paths. And then, perhaps, they did exactly that. “Wait a minute. I’m cold. I don’t like this. Here, give me that skin you’re wearing. You don’t need it as much as I do.” That sort of thing.
And why, then, would God create us that way? Why instill in our DNA (perhaps there) something that triggered our brains into greater self-awareness, a self-awareness we did not have as “animals” that lived in perfect accord with His Providence. Possibly pre-Adamic “man” didn’t “die” because he was unaware of death…just as animals are. They don’t think about death. They just go on until they do die. And perhaps, being in the Mind of God, as all creation is, the pre-Adam “people” lived on in the Mind of God, so “death” to them was not “death” even if they could know it when they saw it, and even though they could physically die.
So why the spark of knowing? Is it a blessing? Is it a curse? Well, it’s not too hard to think of it as both. We don’t live in total harmony with God’s providence anymore. We question, we doubt, we wonder, we have “knowledge of good and evil”. In the moment when that DNA-enabled spark was kindled, was it somehow self-kindled? “I can choose. So I choose to choose”. Could God have even done it through natural processes? We all know radioactive particles can alter cells, genes, DNA. We know that. What would it take to do that? Or was it perhaps some blast of something-or-other like whatever it was that imprinted the Shroud of Turin? Do we know what imprinted the Shroud? Was it a pure miracle, or the natural energy unleashed from a return from another dimension we term “heaven”; another mode of existence altogether? Not to be too much a smart aleck, but were Adam and Eve’s brains touched by a “brane”, changing them in the process?
And did God, who perhaps thought “I’ll raise them up from their former state. I’ll ennoble them; make them more like angels in having real consciousness and choice. In that way, the greater will be their reward, their glory, their eventual union with Me” but knowing there was danger in it too; danger that we might choose ourselves entirely, like Satan who lives in an eternal cocoon of self-love and self-worship; the “heaven” in which he is the only “god”, that pushes everything else into an outer space of hatred, just as we sometimes (but less definitively until the very end) try to live in “Edens” of our own making; Edens in which we walk with the only “god” we will allow…ourselves.
Anyway, that’s all speculative, and it’s quite enough. And just to clarify, I do not necessarily believe we are the product of evolution, nor do I preclude it as possible. But either way, we are God’s doing. We just don’t know how He did it.
Leaving it with you now. HAPPY EASTER!
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littlenothing
Guest
We lost our preternature and allowed Satan and the other fallen angels to exert some control over the natural world in that first “bite of the apple”. Adam and 3ve knew only good because there was only good. Animals and other natural creatures knew only good in nature because Satan had no control over it.
Adam and Eve let him in this world. It wasn’t our fault, but from our birth we experience the result. We get cold, we get sick, we get tempted. Now we not only have the freedom to choose good, but we can also choose evil.
We no longer have God’s tangible Presence, so our eyes have become shielded to that that exists beyond this fallen natural world.
There are choirs of angels tasked with the courses of the stars, with weather patterns, with world leaders. Now we also have the 1/3 of the fallen angels who abdicated their assigned tasks in their fall, but we allowed them to come into our world to exert their influence. That’s not new age stuff, its Aquinas and other saint who describe the natures of the angels.
Their natures don’t change…those who controlled weather, for example, still do, but they do it to affect us adversely. Thank God there are more faithful than fallen angels!
So, we live in a corrupted world and our bodies, our minds, our hearts, our weather, our earth…all has been plunged into corruption and rot.
When the Word became flesh, He saved only that which was dear to Him: us. The earth will die. Our bodies, made from the earth, will return to it. But our immortal souls were loved so dearly by God, as a father loves his errant children. So he saved our immortal souls from the death Adam and Eve made inevitable.
Adam and Eve let him in this world. It wasn’t our fault, but from our birth we experience the result. We get cold, we get sick, we get tempted. Now we not only have the freedom to choose good, but we can also choose evil.
We no longer have God’s tangible Presence, so our eyes have become shielded to that that exists beyond this fallen natural world.
There are choirs of angels tasked with the courses of the stars, with weather patterns, with world leaders. Now we also have the 1/3 of the fallen angels who abdicated their assigned tasks in their fall, but we allowed them to come into our world to exert their influence. That’s not new age stuff, its Aquinas and other saint who describe the natures of the angels.
Their natures don’t change…those who controlled weather, for example, still do, but they do it to affect us adversely. Thank God there are more faithful than fallen angels!
So, we live in a corrupted world and our bodies, our minds, our hearts, our weather, our earth…all has been plunged into corruption and rot.
When the Word became flesh, He saved only that which was dear to Him: us. The earth will die. Our bodies, made from the earth, will return to it. But our immortal souls were loved so dearly by God, as a father loves his errant children. So he saved our immortal souls from the death Adam and Eve made inevitable.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
This is extremely interesting.
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earl40
Guest
Why do you think you deserve heaven? This is the point of my post. The merit one or lack there of has everything to do with the work of Jesus or Adam. To deny the work (or sin) of Adam is the reason you or I are fallen creatures is to deny the biblical concept of original sin.
Also God is never capricious. If He chooses a vessel for dishonor or honor He is as Bobby Brown would say “Its my prerogative”. Read Romans 9 and answer Paul to your capriciousness line of thought. “Who are you?”.
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fhansen
Guest
Capriciousness would be the line of thought of anyone who thinks God would simply predestine a being to hell. That would be a capricious, petty little god not worthy of our time, let alone our love.
No one deserves existence, let alone heaven. God just wants our wills involved; otherwise He might as well stock heaven with some and hell with the rest and avoid all the drama and suffering that this life entails.
You need to grow both in the knowledge of God and in your understanding of the effects of the Fall on human nature.
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earl40
Guest
Do know this is exactly the type of answer Paul expected in Romans 9?
You think you are speaking to me but you are speaking to Paul in Romans and you are saying God is capricious if he acts EXACTLY as depicted in Romans 9.
You need to not deny what the fall did to all of us, and how God works in forming vessels to honor or dishonor.
Also God does indeed want our wills involved…that is why regeneration precedes faith. You and Billy Graham and most baptists have that backwards.
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