Adam and Eve? That's just mythology, says Pell

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If the theory of polygenism turns out to be correct, and it is not established science as far as I know, then it will be a problem for all Catholics.
It is a scientific impossibility that the entire human race descended from one couple. Our species would have gone extinct within a few generations because of the inbreeding that would be required for such a task.
 
It is a scientific impossibility that the entire human race descended from one couple. Our species would have gone extinct within a few generations because of the inbreeding that would be required for such a task.
It is important to distinghish between the literal Adam and Eve story in which there are no other humans and the claim that we all share a common ancestral pair; the later allows for other proto-humans who may have interbred with this evolutionary Adam and Eve.

All that that the pope was claiming, to the best of my understanding, is that there was such a common pair (who acted out the Adam and Eve story).
 
It is a scientific impossibility that the entire human race descended from one couple. Our species would have gone extinct within a few generations because of the inbreeding that would be required for such a task.
Source?
 
But I think most wouldn’t consider the items on these lists you found as actual “proof”?

This is word of mouth that was put to paper 50-100 years later. Many do have faith that what people eventually wrote down was accurate, that the words and events they quoted were correct, and that the witness they quoted were reliable–but it does seem to be more a matter of faith and interpretation than proof.

To take one example: After my grandmother died, a friend of hers saw her standing at the foot of her bed hundreds of miles away, saying good-bye to her…and the friend hadn’t even known she had died yet.
So people’s spirits often visit those on earth.

Would be a great boon for Christianity, though, if evidence beyond a doubt was actually found.
A.N. Sherwin Wright, a professional historian who wrote ‘Roman Society and Roman Law in the New Testament’ says Roman and Greek histories are generally biased and removed one or two generations or even centuries after the events they record. Yet he says historians reconstruct with confidence Greek and Roman history. For example the two earliest biographies of Alexander the Great written by Arrian and Plutarch were written 400 years after Alexander’s death, yet classical historians still consider them trustworthy.

There is evidence the Gospels appeared well within the lives of the original witnesses.
 
I guess it depends on how a person defines the words “evidence” and “proof”? To me, they both have always meant information or facts that prove something for sure. Beyond doubt.
Proof usually means that: for sure, beyond doubt. Evidence does not usually mean that.

Proof is usually limited to fields like mathematics, though often it is used loosly in law and science to mean a preponderance of evidence.
But perhaps they are two different things? Semantics. Evidence may be given to try to support a statement…but may not necessarily prove it? (Whereas “proof” is definite “proof”)
Yes, exactly.
So while she is indeed posting a website that gives “evidence” for something…doesn’t mean this evidence on the site proves it? (Is that what you are saying?)
Correct!

Christians (well, most anyway) well understand that there is no proof of God etc. and that is why faith is important. But it is false to say that religion is only faith, as many atheists are prone to do. There is considerable evidence and reasonable people choose to follow the evidence and feel intellectually satisfied even when they know that the evidence falls short of proof.
 
In genetic terms, monogenism means that there was a time when there was a population bottleneck with the size of 2, or, that there was a time when the effective population size of humans was 2.
The Catholic theological doctrine of monogenism is that all humanity descended from a single human couple. We all have the same first parents. In contrast, basic polygenism describes the current population as descendents from a variety of parent ancestral sources. With the concept of polygenism, the unity of the human race is shattered into sections. Within philosophical and theological circles, there has been an effort to conform Catholicism to scientific polygenism. The effort has failed to close the doctrinal gap between a single source of humanity and many sources for human persons…
Past effective population size can be calculated from an analysis of genetic diversity of the present population. Basically, there are some statistical laws which govern how genes change (so-called genetic drift) and they allow you to back-calculate what the human population would have to be in the past to get to the present state. Here is (one of many) technical paper which does that: genome.cshlp.org/content/17/4/520.long
First, thank you for the link to the paper “Recent human effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium” Albert Tenesa et al. It is very interesting to see how genetic research has expanded since the landmark research of Francisco J. Ayala.

I briefly scanned the paper looking for indications that the inherent problems of back-calculation have been solved. One problem is the assumption of estimates.

Tenesa was up front with using the word estimate often as needed. For example in the section “Results” the last paragraph begins “For the CEU and YRI samples we estimated effective population size as a function of time in the past.” This was followed by pertinent information. In the section “Discussion”, I spotted a reference to the concept that population growth and bottlenecks both have an effect on the estimates of effective population size using either marker heterozgosity or LD, but to a different degree.

Using estimates is proper in scientific research especially when there is very little hard data when one back-calculates for thousands of years. One can certainly quibble about the assumptions; however, I believe the scientist is dedicated to doing the best possible with what he has.

Another difficulty in determining populations, going backwards for thousands of years, is how to estimate overlapping generations. I believe that one of the computer simulated population programs does allow for overlapping generations but that depends on the researcher estimating if this variable happened and when. Small note about generations used in research. The length of a generation is determined by the researcher which means that the amount of years can vary from paper to paper.

When it comes to the reality of two founders of the human species, the data used to back-calculate normally focuses on small, yet important, sections of DNA. The overall picture includes 20,000 - 25,000 genes in human DNA. Source: ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml This site also lists the fact that there are 3 billion chemical base pairs that make up human DNA.

Focusing on a relatively small sequence in the human genome is proper. Doing this type of research is of great benefit in the medical arena. Yet, regardless of the sample size, including some new research on the whole human genome, back-calculation is still limited by necessary estimates.

It is not proper to use limited estimates to infer an universal exclusion. In other words, the evidence provided by back-calculation does not warrant the extrapolation to an universal exclusion of all possibilities for two founders of the human species.
 
The Catholic theological doctrine of monogenism is that all humanity descended from a single human couple. We all have the same first parents. In contrast, basic polygenism describes the current population as descendents from a variety of parent ancestral sources. With the concept of polygenism, the unity of the human race is shattered into sections. Within philosophical and theological circles, there has been an effort to conform Catholicism to scientific polygenism. The effort has failed to close the doctrinal gap between a single source of humanity and many sources for human persons.
It sounds like you know a lot about the science, and have responded appropriately to kama3 (et alia). It sounds like the scientific question of mono vs. polygenism remains an open subject (as I had earlier said).

I am more curious, though, about the theological efforts to explain Catholic theology in terms of polygenism. Early on I threw out some guesses which drew no response but I am curious what others who have spent serious time on the subject have said.

Where would you suggest to begin?
 
I am more curious, though, about the theological efforts to explain Catholic theology in terms of polygenism. Early on I threw out some guesses which drew no response but I am curious what others who have spent serious time on the subject have said.

Where would you suggest to begin?
My suggestion is to begin with your post 22 because, in my humble opinion, that is key to the whole issue of polygenism. You replied to _ Abyssinia’s question “How can there be an original sin without a historical Adam?” by saying “That is the essential question that this thread poses and which attracted my attention.”

The difficulty with starting with Original Sin is that many, not all, people learn about Adam and Eve from those cutesy children’s books where every page has enough leaves to appropriately cover Adam and Eve in their wild and beautiful garden.
Perhaps some people find that explaining Catholic theology in polygenism terms is a lot easier than dealing with the actual theology.🙂
Nonetheless, polygenism is a serious issue among the big guys and ladies in philosophical and theological circles.

The theological efforts to explain Catholic theology in terms of polygenism stem from a long battle against the doctrines of Original Sin. One of these battles surfaced in the fifth century with the heresy of Pelagianism which reduced the influence of Adam’s fault to bad example. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 406.) The smaller print indicates observations of an historical or apologetic nature, or supplementary doctrinal explanations. (CCC 18 -22 which give practical directions for using the Catechism.)

What is interesting about Nicolas Perpitch’s choice of Cardinal Pell’s comments is that one of them also reduces the theological seriousness of original sin by a reduction of Adam’s fault to a sophisticated mythology to try to explain the evil and the suffering in the world. (refer to link in post 1) Unfortunately, Perpitch did not give the context of that comment so we do not know the exact position of the Cardinal regarding Original Sin. Out of charity, we can assume the best until we know the whole story.

However, an additional comment chosen by Perpitch is a current popular explanation of the myth of Adam. This comment refers to Adam and Eve as a religious story told for religious purposes. We often hear this idea proposed by someone who would like to see Catholic theology yield to scientific progress. It is also proposed by someone who is caught up by symbolism.

As far as I can tell, it is the Council of Trent, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that formulated the doctrines surrounding Original Sin that are in today’s limelight. *Humani Generis *affirms these doctrines as well as the current Catechism.

In the link in post 1, Nicolas Perpitch reports a question by journalist Tony Jones regarding belief in “the existence of an actual Garden of Eden with an Adam and Eve.” I had to ignore what was said about Cardinal Pell because I was between laughing and crying. This question is so typical of the lack of Catholic teaching about the relationship of God the Creator with Adam the Creator.

If you would be willing to share your ideas about what happened in that “garden”, I promise not to laugh or cry. Actually, I would have to laugh at myself because I have learned more in my years on CAF than I ever knew and I would have to cry that it took me so long to appreciate God as Creator.
 
Thank you for your very thoughtful reply. Although you have packed a lot into your response, I’d like to start with your last question and explain my own thoughts on the subject in order to guide the discussion toward what interests me (and you correctly identified several previous posts).
We often hear this idea proposed by someone who would like to see Catholic theology yield to scientific progress.
I am in this camp. If the science is reasonable and reliable then theology must conform to it. I say that realizing that you are not warm to that position.

Obviusly, I beieve in evolution. I am agnostic on how involved God was in evolution (setting it in motion Deisticly vs. tweaking it now and then as in Intelligent Design). The problem with the Adam and Eve story is not simply mono vs. polygenism but the theodicy that portrays Adam and Eve as immortal prior to their fall. It’s pretty hard to reconcile that with evolution. You can’t just posit that Adam and Eve were a common human ancestral pair.
If you would be willing to share your ideas about what happened in that “garden”, I promise not to laugh or cry. Actually, I would have to laugh at myself because I have learned more in my years on CAF than I ever knew and I would have to cry that it took me so long to appreciate God as Creator.
My own opinion is that most of Genesis (up to Abraham) is probably not reliable history but more in the nature of what we would call myth, a synthesized representation of prehistory. Just as we might say that the six days of creation are symbolic of eons of actual time and events, so the stories of Genesis are symbolic of thousands of years of human history.

I believe that Original Sin can be understood as an intrinsic human flaw, a natural tendency to turn away from God. If the story of Adam and Eve is myth it is a myth of such truth that I don’t doubt that humans would do what Adam and Eve did. That is to say, put two humans in a Garden of Eden and give them one rule not to break and sooner or later they will break that rule. We are not fit, as naturally born, to be in God’s presence.

Thus, I am not beginning from the position of trying to minimize or sidestep Original Sin or the need for God’s help in achieving salvation. I am not one of those who believe that we are by nature good.

You can laugh if you want but I hope you don’t cry.
 
Here’s the important result: there is no evidence of any population bottleneck with the population size of 2. Nothing. Nada. The lowest estimate of a population bottleneck we have is 1200 and it is linked to the Toba catastrophe. Also, this is not a new development either: there are papers from at least 20 years ago discussing that. The evidence simply continues to mount.
As far as I know, you are correct that there is no published research paper on a human population bottleneck of 2. Nothing, Nada. However, as my Irish Mother would say – There is more than one way to skin a cat! 🙂

Since you have a good grasp on evolution theory, you might already be familiar with the two top evolution sites. If not, you will enjoy these.
evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/home.php

tolweb.org/tree/phylogeny.html

I am familiar with some of the concepts in your other links, but need time to study these particular articles in their entirety. One of the things which caught my eye was the brief list of documents relating to monogenism. I do hope the author has continued that list because monogenism as a Divine Revelation dates to St. Paul.

There is one thing to remember when reading science comments of high ranking clergy. All Catholics, regardless of the hat they wear or don’t wear, have every right to comment, speculate, argue, disagree, opine, whatever, on topics in science. This “right” does not mean that they are necessarily communicating Church doctrines. Catholic doctrines are in the realm of faith and morals which is separate from the realm of natural science. The exception to the separation is when a particular science theory intersects with a particular Catholic doctrine.
 
Should have been:
Code:
				Originally Posted by **buffalo** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=9171447#post9171447) 				
			*The fact anyone else was not mentioned does **not ***mean they were the only ones around.
Incest in the parent to child line is intrinsically evil. Between siblings it is not.

After the fall corruption entered the genome.
That is a mixture of Bible with science.
Corruption entering the DNA?
Strange, no?
what would be a perfect DNA?
 
Denying that Adam was not an actual person who committed an actual original sin which shattered humanity’s relationship with Divinity – is part of the modern (secular) theological movement to change some of the doctrines of the Catholic Church.

Long range, this attack on Adam leads to a denial of human nature and the inherent dignity of each person. In its worst form, eventually this attack on the uniqueness of Adam could possibly lead to an attack on the Divinity of Jesus Christ Who is the foundation for the Catholic Church. The idea that Jesus Christ is only a human prophet among other human prophets has already been accepted in some areas.
No, it is not.
It is a scientific fact. And Science is the discovering of God’s Thought.
Math is the Language of God, said Newton.
There was no Adam and that does nothing to raise up or diminish my faith in God.
Maybe it will solve some problems, like thinking that he was 5000 years old when humanity exists since 3 million of years.
 
Just because science may not be able to prove there was a real Adam and Eve does not mean they did not exist, science can not prove the Resurrection either but there is evidence for it and Catholics have faith. We have to remember that.
Adam would be 5000 years old and humanity existed much before that.
So, Adam is excluded automatically.
 
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