Adam and Eve vs. Bob and Sue

[grannymh]

So Jesus is saying it would be better to not have been born than to go through Purgatory first? I was always under the impression that Purgatory was a good thing, because you’re on your way to Heaven. So Jesus is saying non existence is better than Heaven essentially?

Is that how Jesus feels about the majority of souls that have ever existed, since most of them have to be cleansed through Purgatory? Is he really saying that it would have been better if more than half of mankind never existed?

Please note that I was taking advantage of the allowed editing time You may want to go back to post 58 for my personal guess.

I may be older than dirt; nonetheless, I was not around to hear Jesus speaking those words. Since I am sure that a real Adam committed a real Original Sin, it becomes interesting to guess what our life would be like if Adam had chosen obedience to his Maker.

Of course Purgatory is a good thing. I have a seat reserved in the last row.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . If God strongly intervenes, isnt free will not exactly free will?

:twocents:

Real choices, those that change your life, are usually very difficult.
We are always the ones who ultimately choose.
Jonah acted not out for love of man, but in the realization that he was nothing, he was essentially dead without God, the source of all goodness.
While the story reveals much about God and our relationship to Him, it does not appear to be a good case illustrating the nature of man’s will.

 

[Thorns]

In Purgatory for a very long time?

Seriously, here is my personal guess – all of us would have been born in the State of Original Holiness if Adam had not freely chose to sin against his Maker. Then, obviously, there would have been no need for a person with the role of Judas. “It would have been better”

(Information source. CCC, 396-409)

Well, if you can betray the Son of Man with a kiss for a few pieces of gold, have no faith in His ability to forgive, despair and kill yourself, and have the Son of Man say about you that it would have been better if you had not existed…and only ended up in Purgatory to ultimately be saved, then I am rather convinced that NOONE will ever go to hell ever, necause it all pales in comparison to what Judas did.

Maybe all of the unrepentant sinners just end up im Purgatory for a really long time too then, by that logic?

I reiterate, I dont think Jesus was talking about Purgatory there.

 

[Aloysium]

Well, if you can betray the Son of Man with a kiss for a few pieces of gold, have no faith in His ability to forgive, despair and kill yourself, and have the Son of Man say about you that it would have been better if you had not existed…and only ended up in Purgatory to ultimately be saved, then I am rather convinced that NOONE will ever go to hell ever, necause it all pales in comparison to what Judas did. . .

Jesus came to save all sinners.
We do not know what was in the heart of judas in his final moment.
I think he is probably in hell.
However, a case can be made that his suicide, along with its other meanings, might reflect his repentance and penance. I cannot say this could not be true.

 

[grannymh]

Well, if you can betray the Son of Man with a kiss for a few pieces of gold, have no faith in His ability to forgive, despair and kill yourself, and have the Son of Man say about you that it would have been better if you had not existed…and only ended up in Purgatory to ultimately be saved, then I am rather convinced that NOONE will ever go to hell ever, necause it all pales in comparison to what Judas did.

Maybe all of the unrepentant sinners just end up im Purgatory for a really long time too then, by that logic?

Post 62 says
" Maybe all of the unrepentant sinners just end up in Purgatory for a really long time too then, by that logic?"

Catholic teaching is that unrepentant sinners do not end up in Purgatory.

Catholic teaching is that Purgatory is open to repented sinners in order to prepare them for heaven.

I have never seen a Catholic doctrine which states that God withholds His mercy from repentant sinners. I have never seen a Catholic doctrine which states that certain sins prevent God from being merciful.

I have never seen a Catholic doctrine which gives a human both the ability and the right to judge what is in another human’s soul in order to declare that person is in hell.

You may have the last word.

 

[rinnie]

That’s why I feel sorry for Judas.

I don’t believe he had a choice in the matter of being the bad guy.

God had ordained this to be his fate and there was nothing he could do about it.

Image he didn’t betray and the authorities never found him - no Crucifixion

No Resurrection

Poor Judas was set up

Sarah x

Why do you feel sorry for Judas he chose to betray God for goodness sakes. And him betraying Jesus has nothing to do with the death on the cross.

Jesus came to die on the cross, he knew this so we could be free from sin.

Do you really thing that the cross was because of Judas? You heard what Jesus said to Judas at the Last Supper, one of you is a devil. Judas took the side of the devil against God. Its as simple as that.

 

[rinnie]

Even if Judas were supposed not to have repented we still wouldn’t be entitled to pass judgment. Jesus died for everyone.

Yes but Jesus said Judas was a devil. Which means he was evil and the devil wants nothing to do with God.

I believe Jesus did pass judgment when he called him a devil.

 

[rinnie]

It didn’t? I haven’t heard that story in a while but I believe that Jesus made a prediction, Simon Peter said he wouldn’t deny him, but then ended up denying him anyways. Why wasn’t he able to change his path? This doesn’t seem like a good example of free will. It seems to imply the opposite.

God can see everything. From the day we are born until the day we die in this world.

Its like saying if you read the last page of a book you wrote the ending, it makes no sense.

God gives us free will to choose, and he knows who are his and who are not. But just because he knows how the story ends does not mean he wrote the book. We did.

 

[rinnie]

It didn’t? I haven’t heard that story in a while but I believe that Jesus made a prediction, Simon Peter said he wouldn’t deny him, but then ended up denying him anyways. Why wasn’t he able to change his path? This doesn’t seem like a good example of free will. It seems to imply the opposite.

How when Judas did not even remember Jesus saying this until he heard the Crow? He could have changed the path but he did not. It had nothing to do with Jesus.

When he heard the crow he hung his head in shame. That’s when he remembered what Jesus told him.

 

[rinnie]

It could be the reverse.

God understands human nature. He understands the possibilities. I really cannot say for certain…but maybe it is possible that Jesus, having had many experiences with foot-in-the-mouth Peter, figured out where Peter was headed. In that scenario, it is Jesus Who had to predict what Peter, being Peter, would do.

No, Jesus knows every single thing we have done, and everything we will do. Simply because there is no time for God. God is past, present and future.

God knows who are his the moment they are conceived into the womb. It is not him who chooses us, it is us who choose him.

If Jesus had it his choice we would all be his, but he gives us free will to choose him or reject him. He loves us that much.

God is the Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end.

If you look back at scripture it tells us, he knows every single hair on our head.

 

[Thorns]

Post 62 says
" Maybe all of the unrepentant sinners just end up in Purgatory for a really long time too then, by that logic?"

Catholic teaching is that unrepentant sinners do not end up in Purgatory.

I don’t see where Judas had any time to repent, he stayed hanging from a rope.

Catholic teaching is that Purgatory is open to repented sinners in order to prepare them for heaven.

Agreed. It does not appear that Judas was repentant though. He despaired.

I have never seen a Catholic doctrine which states that God withholds His mercy from repentant sinners. I have never seen a Catholic doctrine which states that certain sins prevent God from being merciful.

Again, I don’t see where Judas had any time to repent.

I have never seen a Catholic doctrine which gives a human both the ability and the right to judge what is in another human’s soul in order to declare that person is in hell.

Surely Jesus has full knowledge of where Judas ended up when He clearly expressed that and He certainly has every right to judge, does He not?

 

[Thorns]

However, a case can be made that his suicide, along with its other meanings, might reflect his repentance and penance. I cannot say this could not be true.

I am pretty sure suicide is never okay or ever seen as repentance and penance and that it is not Catholic teaching. It is a sign of despair indicating lack of faith, trust, and hope in God. We also don’t have the authority to take our own lives, since they’re not really ours to begin with.

 

[rinnie]

The bible tells us God knew us even before we were in the womb.

 

[rinnie]

I am pretty sure suicide is never okay or ever seen as repentance and penance and that it is not Catholic teaching. It is a sign of despair indicating lack of faith, trust, and hope in God. We also don’t have the authority to take our own lives, since they’re not really ours to begin with.

This is not true, although you are right it is not okay for us to take our own life or another, Catholic teaching never says it is lack of faith and trust in God.

The Catholic Church teaches that when a person takes their own life they are usually not mentally stable and God understands this. We have every right to believe and pray that God indeed has mercy on a person who is in such a sign of despair, and have every right to believe God is a just God and has mercy on these People also.

 

[rinnie]

I don’t see where Judas had any time to repent, he stayed hanging from a rope.

Agreed. It does not appear that Judas was repentant though. He despaired.

Again, I don’t see where Judas had any time to repent.

Surely Jesus has full knowledge of where Judas ended up when He clearly expressed that and He certainly has every right to judge, does He not?

Judas had plenty of time to repent, he chose not to. Peter did indeed repent, How? He cried and was ashamed and told the Blessed Mother what he did, and showed remorse.

It is said that Peter cried so hard he had welts on his face.

Later Jesus asked Peter 3 times Peter do you love me? Get it? 3 Times the number he betrayed him. And he did indeed forgive Peter, so much told him to feed and lead his sheep.

How could you say Judas did not have time to repent, Peter did? Judas was not murdered, he took his own life. Because he was a devil, Jesus told us he was a devil.

 

[Arandur]

I hear many people say this on these forums.

No offense intended, but how can anyone possibly know how god perceives the universe? In time, out of time, past, future, present, etc.?

I have seen many passages in Scripture that are more consistent with this view than any other, and on top of that, we have basic logic:

1. God is eternal (has always existed)
2. Time began at some point (there was a beginning).
3. God created time.
4. Therefore, God transcends time.

As one of the Scriptures, we have Revelation, where, as it describes the Liturgy and as the Church teaches, we are all present at the one point in time of the Passion and Sacrifice of Christ. Time brought into eternity. The eternal “present-ness” of God.

 

[Arandur]

Youre contradicting your other post. So then strong intervention and coersion does change peoples’ will after all, like how Jonah changed his mind?

There is no contradiction. You’re still confusing intention and consequence with choice, and acting as if persuasion or even coercion violates choice. It does not.

A choice that that results in an unintended consequence is still a free choice.

An attempt to persuade someone, whether it is successful or not, does not violate free choice. A person is still free to be persuaded from their original choice or not. As Jonah did.

An attempt to coerce someone, whether it is successful or not, does not violate free choice. A person is still free to defy the coercion.

Doesnt that play exactly to the idea that God has determined the outcome, one way or another? If God strongly intervenes, isnt free will not exactly free will?

You can certainly choose to curse God and defy Him. We do it every day. It’s all over the Bible. Satan sets a really good example. It may be that plenty of people choose hell. Job’s friends advise him to do just that, right?

That’s a choice, even if you think God is punishing you or trying to force you to do something.

That’s pretty clear evidence that free will exists. In fact, Hell is necessary to prove that free will exists. If we all end up in Heaven, it would either mean that no one ultimately chooses against God, or that there is no free will. Hell proves otherwise (that there IS free will).

 

[Thorns]

This is not true, although you are right it is not okay for us to take our own life or another, Catholic teaching never says it is lack of faith and trust in God.

The Catholic Church teaches that when a person takes their own life they are usually not mentally stable and God understands this. We have every right to believe and pray that God indeed has mercy on a person who is in such a sign of despair, and have every right to believe God is a just God and has mercy on these People also.

Despair is lack of faith, hope, and trust in God. Ive also heard of Judas’ despair referenced as “Diabolical Despair” by a priest.

 

[Thorns]

Judas had plenty of time to repent, he chose not to. Peter did indeed repent, How? He cried and was ashamed and told the Blessed Mother what he did, and showed remorse.

It is said that Peter cried so hard he had welts on his face.

Later Jesus asked Peter 3 times Peter do you love me? Get it? 3 Times the number he betrayed him. And he did indeed forgive Peter, so much told him to feed and lead his sheep.

How could you say Judas did not have time to repent, Peter did? Judas was not murdered, he took his own life. Because he was a devil, Jesus told us he was a devil.

I meant Judas didnt have time to repent as he was hanging from the rope. His brain cells likely died quick and he probably went unconscious, then died. Theres no repenting going on there from what I can see. Then there’s the words of our Lord Jesus, describing the fate of Judas. Its pretty clear.

 

[Thorns]

A choice that that results in an unintended consequence is still a free choice.

An attempt to persuade someone, whether it is successful or not, does not violate free choice. A person is still free to be persuaded from their original choice or not. As Jonah did.

An attempt to coerce someone, whether it is successful or not, does not violate free choice. A person is still free to defy the coercion.

Choices are still possible, but I wouldn’t call it free will. If you coerce someone in some way, they are simply making a decision that they otherwise would not have normally made on their own and of their true free will.

Like Jonah. He ran away and made up his mind. He later changed his mind because God kept hounding, coercing, and strongily intervening, as you put it. It seems like if Jonah did change his mind at all, it was done due to all of the factors listed and not done freely.

Someone pointing a gun to your head and coercing you (forcing you) to renounce your Faith, and you doing it, is not a free choice at all. It was only done out of fear, our of survival, and because a gun was pointed to your head. Had this not been the case, you would not have renounced your Faith.

That’s pretty clear evidence that free will exists. In fact, Hell is necessary to prove that free will exists. If we all end up in Heaven, it would either mean that no one ultimately chooses against God, or that there is no free will. Hell proves otherwise (that there IS free will).

Hell doesn’t prove that free will exists. It may also mean that God, for whatever reason, destines certain people to hell.