Adam and Eve were not the first Human Beings

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Because truth is truth regardless of how it is derived. Denying scientifically derived truth is little better than denying revealed truth. Yes, scientific theories are not above scrutiny and criticism. There is evidence that contradicts various theories for the age of the Earth, Big Bang and the various forms of biological evolution. No scientist who is actually doing real science can claim that they couldn’t be subject to revision.

On the other hand, rejecting legitimate scientific evidence on the basis of revelation that may be purely philosophical, theological and/or allegorical is hardly a truth seeking endeavor. What the Church actually teaches must be accepted, not what individual Catholics might wish the Church to teach.

Why does it matter? Because former Christians keep coming here to CAF and posting threads like this one asking why scientifically derived evidence and conclusions appear to contradict revelation. Truths can be derived from science. Truths can be derived from revelation. Whether the various truth claims actually contradict each other is what everyone seems intent on arguing.
Speaking of legitimate scientific evidence, if only people actually knew what that entails…:o

The only way that truth cannot contradict truth is when science is conducted properly and Catholic doctrines are properly understood. 👍
 
Naturally. And revelation as doctrinally defined by the Catholic Church is unalterable, such as the reality that Adam and Eve are our first parents and tainted us with the results of Original Sin.

The Catechism twice [28, 360] quotes Acts 17:26-28:
“From one ancestor [God] made all nations to inhabit the whole earth…” That the Catechism refers to a single person is confirmed in footnote number 226 [360] which cites Tobit 8:6, “Thou madest Adam and gave him Eve his wife as a helper and support. From them the race of mankind has sprung…” Thus, the “one ancestor” could only be Adam. This is confirmed in [359] which quotes St Peter Chrysologus, “St Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ…The first man, Adam,…was made by the last Adam.” The Catechism clearly teaches that polygenism is irreconcilable with Catholic Tradition.

Thus is pseudo-science revealed.
Which particular scientific deduction or assertion is it that you describe as “pseudo-science”?
 
For example, "The Church is only concerned with faith and morals, not science.
Can you please reference where in this thread someone said that?

Certainly not me, nor did I see anyone else post such a thing. However, I did note that Christ gave authority to the Church over matters of faith and morals…not science.
 
Speaking of legitimate scientific evidence, if only people actually knew what that entails…:o
Well, some of us do, and inadequate research combined with dogmatic-like conclusions in areas that don’t even involve the empirical sciences (Coyne, Dawkins, et. al.) are as much to blame for the confusion as anyone.
The only way that truth cannot contradict truth is when science is conducted properly and Catholic doctrines are properly understood. 👍
Properly speaking, truth can never contradict truth since that would involve a logical contradiction. I understand what you are getting at though, and I agree.
 
Rau #220
Which particular scientific deduction or assertion is it that you describe as “pseudo-science”?
Here:
‘It was rejected by most French biologists, for example, including the late Dr. Pierre P. Grasse, president of the French Academy of Sciences, who called Darwinism “a pseudo-science” that is “either in conflict with reality or cannot solve the basic problems.” A group of prominent anti-Darwinists produced a technical volume called *Beyond Neo-Darwinism *in 1984, in which two American biologists, Gareth Nelson and Ron Platnick, wrote, “We believe that Darwinism . . . is, in short, a theory that has been put to the test and found false.” Molecular biologist Michael Denton weighed in with Evolution: A Theory in Crisis in 1986, in which he showed that recent developments in molecular biology are at complete variance with Darwinism. And, Michael Behe’s (Professor of Biochemistry) *Darwin’s Black Box *(1996) caused a stir by pointing out that Darwinian evolution is biochemically impossible.

‘Scientists and philosophers who disagree with Darwin who deny that small mutations guided by natural selection can add up to “macro” changes still call themselves “evolutionists” since they recognize that all life forms share basic genetic material and so may be descended from a single ancestor; but they are frank about not being able to explain how this happened. Some speculate that species undergo a “genetic snap” which produces new ones. This would mean that evolution was somehow “pre-programmed” in the DNA. This scenario sounds a lot like St. Augustine’s and is, of course, anathema to Darwinists because it points to a Programmer God.’
See George Sim Johnston, Envoy Magazine, Mar-April, ’97 at:
catholiceducation.org/articles/science/sc0038.html
 
Because truth is truth regardless of how it is derived. Denying scientifically derived truth is little better than denying revealed truth. Yes, scientific theories are not above scrutiny and criticism. There is evidence that contradicts various theories for the age of the Earth, Big Bang and the various forms of biological evolution. No scientist who is actually doing real science can claim that they couldn’t be subject to revision.

On the other hand, rejecting legitimate scientific evidence on the basis of revelation that may be purely philosophical, theological and/or allegorical is hardly a truth seeking endeavor. What the Church actually teaches must be accepted, not what individual Catholics might wish the Church to teach.

Why does it matter? Because former Christians keep coming here to CAF and posting threads like this one asking why scientifically derived evidence and conclusions appear to contradict revelation. Truths can be derived from science. Truths can be derived from revelation. Whether the various truth claims actually contradict each other is what everyone seems intent on arguing.
I don’t think that’s the case. Anyone who puts science above Divine Revelation, by definition, excludes Divine Revelation. In the past, some have pointed out the wonder of a supposedly long and apparently aimless process that ended up creating human beings as opposed to turning down a slightly different path and creating lizard men. God works infallibly, but that can’t be true since science cannot study it. Did Jesus call Lazarus, who was dead, from his tomb? Did He restore to life a dead boy who was in his coffin during a funeral procession? Did Jesus rise from the dead, bodily?

Truths revealed to us by God are beyond scientific scrutiny, except here. I know what the Church teaches, but the following must be understood: this theory cannot be proven according to Pope Benedict, and while Pope Benedict sees what is being proposed as worthy of comment, he also said: “The pope (John Paul) had his reasons for saying this,” Benedict said. “But it is also true that the theory of evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory.”

"Benedict added that the immense time span that evolution covers made it impossible to conduct experiments in a controlled environment to finally verify or disprove the theory.

“We cannot haul 10,000 generations into the laboratory,” he said."

So there you have it. Regarding man, we cannot replicate or examine the evidence as we would other scientific findings.

The more I see threads like this, the more I realize that Divine Revelation is the primary truth, and science, not so much. The attempts to mix the two don’t appear to be plausible. Not here at least.

Peace,
Ed
 
Can you please reference where in this thread someone said that?

Certainly not me, nor did I see anyone else post such a thing. However, I did note that Christ gave authority to the Church over matters of faith and morals…not science.
Threads like this are common. My reference was to previous threads where the same statements are made again and again. You can believe what you want about the Church and science. But, why does the world rejoice when a Pope makes a statement for it and care so much should anyone in higher authority in the Church deny it? They care because they want to change beliefs.

Vatican observatory:

vaticanobservatory.org/

Pontifical Academy of Sciences:

casinapioiv.va/content/accademia/en.html

Peace,
Ed
 
I believe the assertion that man is alone as the only physical being with a soul, and is alone made in the image of god, are very… Arrogant. Very self centered. It degrades all other life and creates an image of man as seperate from and above nature. I see why the idea developed, sense we are far more inteligent than other species on this particular planet, but the people who conceived this had no knowledge of evolution. They did not know that inteligence comes from the physical brain, rather than the immaterial soul, or that our brain is simply more developed than other species to compensate for our general lack of other physical advantages.

I believe all living things have a soul. I think to claim that only we do and that all of existence was put here to serve us, the divinely chosen race, is remarkably arrogant and ultimately leads to mans disassociation from nature. I’m a soft-polythiest, meaning that I am panetheistic aswell as Polythiestic. To see the divine spark within all life rejected, and them reduced to sacks of meat created to serve humans, as nothing more than robots of flesh and blood, well that disturbs me to my very core. I feal with all myself that is wrong.
To see the divine spark within all life is what “sparked” my curiosity to know more of your thinking which would be based on one’s observations.

From the Catholic position, it is the “spiritual soul” which distinguishes the first two human persons from the living creatures which are mentioned in the six days (years, centuries, whatever) in the first verses in Genesis, chapter one. Yet, I do not think it is proper to assume that the other living creatures did not have some kind of sign or characteristic that they too were created with the unique feature “life.”

Eventually, I did find this amazing story.
chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/08/16/15-years-ago-today-gorilla-rescues-boy-who-fell-in-ape-pit/

Ever since it happened, I have wondered why it happened. We cannot look at it arrogantly; we need to look at it in humility. I am interested in your reaction simply because it might lead us to a deeper meaning of “soul” not only ours, but also what we learn about the first two humans’ relationship with animals which apparently were created before them.
 
My reference was to previous threads where the same statements are made again and again. You can believe what you want about the Church and science.
My comments regarding the Church’s authority on matters of faith and morals, but not science, are not my opinion. That’s the Church’s stance. Disagreeing with that point is not a disagreement with me, but a disagreement with the Church.

Furthermore, the Church is not going to take a dogmatic stance on science for obvious reasons; our understanding changes over time. Taking a dogmatic stance on something that may change means that the first time your wrong, you’ve just utterly destroyed infallible authority on any matter; i.e., no more Church.
But, why does the world rejoice when a Pope makes a statement for it and care so much should anyone in higher authority in the Church deny it? They care because they want to change beliefs.
I most certainly respect religious authority. But I also recognize what is and what is not dogmatic, and who has authority over what matters. Without understanding that, incorrect conclusions will arise.
 
People tend to react like that when they have preconceived notions, and anyone brings evidence that their preconceived notions may, in fact, be wrong. It is much easier to take comfort in attacking others than accepting discomfort and admitting one is wrong, or even simply misinformed.
Disagreeing with someone, even a priest, is NOT attacking them. When they say it is superstitious to believe in a real man named Adam and a real Woman named Eve as our First Parents, and I disagree, then I guess I’m snarky. I will stick with the Church on that subject!!!, God Bless, Memaw
 
My comments regarding the Church’s authority on matters of faith and morals, but not science, are not my opinion. That’s the Church’s stance. Disagreeing with that point is not a disagreement with me, but a disagreement with the Church.

Furthermore, the Church is not going to take a dogmatic stance on science for obvious reasons; our understanding changes over time. Taking a dogmatic stance on something that may change means that the first time your wrong, you’ve just utterly destroyed infallible authority on any matter; i.e., no more Church.

I most certainly respect religious authority. But I also recognize what is and what is not dogmatic, and who has authority over what matters. Without understanding that, incorrect conclusions will arise.
Let’s don’t forget that the Teaching Magisterium of the Church is Infallible The Church’s teaching on Adam and Eve will NEVER change. Christ’s Church will never error. He promised that. But we sure can!!! I believe what the Church teaches. God Bless, Memaw
 
My comments regarding the Church’s authority on matters of faith and morals, but not science, are not my opinion. That’s the Church’s stance. Disagreeing with that point is not a disagreement with me, but a disagreement with the Church.
For years, I posted that the realm of the Catholic Church is faith and morals and not science. Then, I learned that the two first human creatures were someone’s whimsy.:eek:
Furthermore, the Church is not going to take a dogmatic stance on science for obvious reasons; our understanding changes over time. Taking a dogmatic stance on something that may change means that the first time your wrong, you’ve just utterly destroyed infallible authority on any matter; i.e., no more Church.
I still post that the Catholic Church does not define scientific conclusions as doctrines.
You and I are correct about that.

Where there is a shade difference between our approaches is when it comes to the actual protocol of the visible Catholic Church on planet earth. The so-called prime time sound bite " infallible authority" is not attached to the breathing individual; it is attached to the language of the properly defined and duly proclaimed public doctrine based on Divine Revelation and worded with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The formation of a proper Catholic doctrine begins with a very long period of study and prayer which eventually results in an Ecumenical Church Council. A list of these can be found in the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, Index of Citations, page 720 and following. For those who are interested in the nitty-gritty, start with page 689, following CCC, 2865.

What the Pope, Bishops, Priests, and Religious Ed teachers do is to teach from the already published doctrines. If these authoritative individuals follow the infallible wording, then they can be considered as teaching infallible truth. 🙂

From what I learn here, many Catholics are not aware that even the Pope has the right to free speech and therefore he can give his personal opinions in public. He can even talk about natural science. Imagine that! Obviously, we know from experience that the recent Popes, who are knowledgeable in the natural sciences, often speak with reference to the Divine Revelation in Catholic teachings.

Again, we need to be aware of the fact that a personal opinion by any high ranking individual, female and male, is exactly a personal opinion which may or may not coincide with a duly proclaimed doctrine containing Divine Revelation.

When I first learned that the first loving single set of parents of humanity was a figment of some ancient non-scientist’s over-active imagination, I almost caved under those warehouses of scientific denial of a basic Catholic doctrine. But being older than dirt, there was nothing to lose from tangling with a non-theist scientist. It was when he had my head respectfully on a platter for not doing my homework, that I discovered that “science” had to be leaned. Not only that, I had to re-learn Catholic doctrines. :onpatrol:

The point is that many people are unaware of the recent physical science developments which contradict Divine Revelation. Mostly, these people are stuck in the rut that natural science is separate from faith and morals. That is understandable since various documents by Catholics refer to biological development. For a variety of reasons, some people yield to the authority of natural science.:bowdown:

The problem with the rut which keeps science away from theology is that currently this question must be answered.
** What happens when public interpretations or extrapolations of natural science research papers directly contradict Divine Revelation? **
 
The problem with the rut which keeps science away from theology is that currently this question must be answered.
** What happens when public interpretations or extrapolations of natural science research papers directly contradict Divine Revelation? **
That depends on your expectations of science. If you expect science to confirm Divine Revelation, you may be disappointed. Creation (for example) did not necessarily follow a path that can be scientifically revealed now. And more to the point, the events that are highly likely on the basis of scientific evidence are not necessarily the events that happened. I can simultaneously believe things that science purports to explain (say, that dinosaurs lived tens of millions of years ago, and that birds and reptiles are their latter day descendants) and things that science considers impossible (say, the cures reported to have occurred at the shrine of Lourdes).
 
That depends on your expectations of science.
That refers to subjective thinking which does not always correlate with objective Divine Revelation.
If you expect science to confirm Divine Revelation, you may be disappointed. Creation (for example) did not necessarily follow a path that can be scientifically revealed now. And more to the point, the events that are highly likely on the basis of scientific evidence are not necessarily the events that happened. I can simultaneously believe things that science purports to explain (say, that dinosaurs lived tens of millions of years ago, and that birds and reptiles are their latter day descendants) and things that science considers impossible (say, the cures reported to have occurred at the shrine of Lourdes).
Please, I need a quick clarification
because this sounds like the answer to the question
** What happens when public interpretations or extrapolations of natural science research papers directly contradict Divine Revelation? **

is, and please tell me I am wrong, that the answer is –
Nothing happens because Divine Revelation is irrelevant in the 21st century.
 
Please, I need a quick clarification
because this sounds like the answer to the question
** What happens when public interpretations or extrapolations of natural science research papers directly contradict Divine Revelation? **

is, and please tell me I am wrong, that the answer is –
Nothing happens because Divine Revelation is irrelevant in the 21st century.
As requested, you are wrong. Neither Divine Revelation nor science is irrelevant at any time.
 
As requested, you are wrong. Neither Divine Revelation nor science is irrelevant at any time.
Thank you. Thank you. 😃 That is a relief.

The media and organizations like BioLogos are loud and clear that Science regarding human origin is not irrelevant at any time.

Then how are we to respond to advice similar to – “The question of biological origins is a scientific one; and, if science shows that there is no evidence of monogenism and there is lots of evidence for polygenism, then a Catholic need have no problem accepting that.”

No problem!
If Divine Revelation regarding human origin is not irrelevant, then, seriously, why is there no problem? Relevant Divine Revelation regarding human origin points to major problems with a real Original Sin and a real Divinity of Jesus Christ. Consider the base for racial equality. And why did Pius XII see a problem with scientific pronouncements denying Divine Revelation on the existence of one Adam?

Granted that ordinary folk, including some Catholics, may not have been aware of what was happening in the scientific realm during the late 19th century and early 20th century. But that is not the case considering the easy access to the internet in the 21st century Therefore, a more practical answer is needed for this question.
** What happens when public interpretations or extrapolations of natural science research papers directly contradict Divine Revelation? **
 
That refers to subjective thinking which does not always correlate with objective Divine Revelation.

Please, I need a quick clarification
because this sounds like the answer to the question
** What happens when public interpretations or extrapolations of natural science research papers directly contradict Divine Revelation? **

is, and please tell me I am wrong, that the answer is –
Nothing happens because Divine Revelation is irrelevant in the 21st century.
I believe the constant repetition posted in threads like this confirms your suspicion that Divine Revelation is irrelevant to far too many today.

Science cannot consider it.

Peace,
Ed
 
Thank you. Thank you. 😃 That is a relief.

The media and organizations like BioLogos are loud and clear that Science regarding human origin is not irrelevant at any time.

Then how are we to respond to advice similar to – “The question of biological origins is a scientific one; and, if science shows that there is no evidence of monogenism and there is lots of evidence for polygenism, then a Catholic need have no problem accepting that.”

No problem!
If Divine Revelation regarding human origin is not irrelevant, then, seriously, why is there no problem? Relevant Divine Revelation regarding human origin points to major problems with a real Original Sin and a real Divinity of Jesus Christ. Consider the base for racial equality. And why did Pius XII see a problem with scientific pronouncements denying Divine Revelation on the existence of one Adam?

Granted that ordinary folk, including some Catholics, may not have been aware of what was happening in the scientific realm during the late 19th century and early 20th century. But that is not the case considering the easy access to the internet in the 21st century Therefore, a more practical answer is needed for this question.
** What happens when public interpretations or extrapolations of natural science research papers directly contradict Divine Revelation? **
The “problem” seems to be a mis-placed fear, born of unrealistic, even naive expectations, of science. The manner of creation may involve outcomes which science, properly, deems inconceivable (in the statistical likelihood sense), and/or simply cannot discover. Science cannot factor in Divine Revelation to its theories, for then it is not science. Science may also make mistakes in experiment, theory or deduction.
 
That refers to subjective thinking which does not always correlate with objective Divine Revelation.

Please, I need a quick clarification
because this sounds like the answer to the question
** What happens when public interpretations or extrapolations of natural science research papers directly contradict Divine Revelation? **

is, and please tell me I am wrong, that the answer is –
Nothing happens because Divine Revelation is irrelevant in the 21st century.
In my response to this above, I should have added that I cannot fathom how you arrived at that proposition from what I wrote…
 
To see the divine spark within all life is what “sparked” my curiosity to know more of your thinking which would be based on one’s observations.

From the Catholic position, it is the “spiritual soul” which distinguishes the first two human persons from the living creatures which are mentioned in the six days (years, centuries, whatever) in the first verses in Genesis, chapter one. Yet, I do not think it is proper to assume that the other living creatures did not have some kind of sign or characteristic that they too were created with the unique feature “life.”

Eventually, I did find this amazing story.
chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/08/16/15-years-ago-today-gorilla-rescues-boy-who-fell-in-ape-pit/

Ever since it happened, I have wondered why it happened. We cannot look at it arrogantly; we need to look at it in humility. I am interested in your reaction simply because it might lead us to a deeper meaning of “soul” not only ours, but also what we learn about the first two humans’ relationship with animals which apparently were created before them.
That’s a great story. I was told in highschool by my religion teacher (catholic school) that the church teaches animals have mortal rather than Immortal souls. I still wouldn’t agree with this though, personally I think we are exactly the same as them spiritualy, we simply have more developed inteligence. The things often atributed to animals not having souls, such lack of a concept of morals or ability to predict events are both not entirely true and based on their less developed brains, not their lesser souls. That’s atleast how I see it.
 
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